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Polonius wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

Come now, HBMC, look at your own sig! The question isn't "Does anybody play Vespids," the question is "does anybody BUY Vespids."

And according to EBAY that would be a NO....

Well, at least the core units/issues seem to have been addressed. KPs can be managed, infantry platoons look solid, chimeras are a much easier pill to swallow, LRBT will still be a corner stone, my beloved multilaser sentinels might come off the shelf, Arty looks golden, we have fast skimmer transports, and orders add a whole new flavor to IG.

Yes, some of our "specialists" seem questionable, but I still think everything so far is playable (just perhaps not optimal). And all of the Hellhound variants seem risky, but might work if used correctly (I am actually thinking about the ap3 poison flamer, might be very powerful if you use it correctly).

I really like that tidbit on BoLS that mentioned that certain squad leaders might be able to issue orders to their squad (ie Vets). Would be very cool if vets, stormies, and commissars had that option!

Some things I would like answered.
1. Can infantry squads take 2 special weapons instead of a SW/HW?
2. rapid fire order effect plasmaguns?
3. i would love to know the upgrade options for Vet Sgt (now that we get them for free)
4. where can commissars be placed?
5. point cost on SWS

I'd love it if Commissars could order squads, because I'm worried that command squads are going to be easily dispatch'd.

Polonius wrote:Looks good foil.

Am I the only person having a hard time accepting that even GW could write rules as bad as some of these rumors? 16pt stormtroopers? 40pt Ogryn? I mean, units with that price tag,

I got to about this point in your post and stopped reading... I'm add but whatever. anyways when you said "pricetag" I figured I'd point out that a squad of 4 ogryn and a bone head costs $88usd before sales tax. Ten stormtroopers cast $45. So someone doesn't already own these models why would they buy the product? The rules apparently suck. What are they thinking? I bought a couple ogryn the other day because I thought they might get fixed. I was probably mistaken. no refunds on assembled models. oh well, I'll get painting.

I mean, I think that the core of a relatively archtypical IG army will only be stronger in the new book. Better infantry, transports, officers and tanks add up to a good time. If veterans are troops than giving them a chimera and zooming about is going to be the order of the day.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Polonius wrote:Looks good foil.

Am I the only person having a hard time accepting that even GW could write rules as bad as some of these rumors? 16pt stormtroopers? 40pt Ogryn? I mean, units with that price tag,

I got to about this point in your post and stopped reading... I'm add but whatever. anyways when you said "pricetag" I figured I'd point out that a squad of 4 ogryn and a bone head costs $88usd before sales tax. Ten stormtroopers cast $45. So someone doesn't already own these models why would they buy the product? The rules apparently suck. What are they thinking? I bought a couple ogryn the other day because I thought they might get fixed. I was probably mistaken. no refunds on assembled models. oh well, I'll get painting.

Hehe, I meant price tag in terms of cost in game, but you raise a really good point. Personally? I think GW is afraid of losing profit margin on metals, particularly bulky ones like STs and Ogryn, and would rather encourage the purchase of high margin plastic command squads.

New argument!

What Leman Russ configurations are going to be the prime for 5th edition? I'm thinking the punisher is going to be pretty popular. The sheer volume of shots is going to overwhelm power lists (Nob bikers, dual lash, etc).

I would love to have some plastic ogryn. are the ogres from fantasy plastic? I may need a couple boxes if so...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Bignutter wrote:Being able to drop 5 of these bad boys off from a valkyre and nuke just about anything for 100 pts (assuming 16 pts each and about 10pts for a melta gun, 20pts for 2)... that'll be worth it

Try 200+ points when you factor in the Valk, and the fact that doing this will require two FOC slots. Not such a good deal. Besides, such a unit will die instantly after shooting. Ok, that's normal for Stormies and things like them, but I don't know if I want to use Stormies as a suicide Melta unit when they're 16 points each.

I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

Just to clarify you're saying its not that its bad, its just there are better options. That I think is the best argument against not just the Tanks but some of the other units. I realize its splitting hairs, but that makes a crucial difference in interpreting these units.

I think the critical thing about STs for me is that with everything they have, the have the best likely hood for me to be able to put them where they need to be. They're cost prohibitive nature means that they need to be used in a very thought out way to succeed with them. They will shoot up marines and they'll get to where you need them, if thats what you need you will probably get their points worth out of them. I think the hurt though comes from the fact that they went from being a general front line unit to a niche unit, driven not just by cost but by the nature of their abilities. The way they will have to be used to be successful with them, is closer to how I imagine a special ops force being used; they've gone from army rangers to delta-force (in no strict sense).

I think with the amount that can be packed into Veteran squads, they will probably be more suited to "suicide" duty.
"Suicide mission HA!--- But The commissar gave us all a pat on the back and some extra weapons--- No, no that's just how he says 'I love you'"

Stock Russ. Stripped down, and spammed. If 5th edition has taught us anything, it's that AV14 is tough to kill from a distance. Take enough and rip open the enemy. If lumbering behemoth works as we think it does, than adding HB sponsons might not be bad, but it's 20pts that only fire when the tank doesn't move, and 7 sponsons almost gets you another tank.

@CE: I think massed S8+ blast templates will do more damage to Nob bikes and dual lash than 20 S5 AP- shots.

It'll be a fun thing to use and will have it's place vs. certain lists (can see it doing well vs. Tyranids) but I still think it's inferior to the standard LR.

Cheese Elemental - Honestly I'm liking the look of the stock Russ, and the Eradicator.

I know, that's weird given how I said the Eradicator was the most redundant of the lot when it was first revealed, but now that we know the Hellhound has been transformed into the Nerfhound, the Eradicator is suddenly looking quite good.

S6 wounds Orks on a 2+.
AP4 ignores their 6+ save.
Ignores Cover ignores... their Cover.

All good Anti-Ork weapons. Then you've got Battlecannons to (hopefully) eat into Nob Bikers.

Only sad part is the Ogryn can't stand in front of the Nob Bikers and take the charge because the Nob Bikers will outnumber the Ogryn!

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm just one of those people who really likes WYSIWYG..., why I own 15 standard Russes (I have three of each possible weapon config - Hull HB, Hull LC, Hull HB + Sponson HBs, Hull LC + Sponson HBs). I hate fielding things that look different to what they're armed with or what they are. It's a personal OCD-ish thing.

I'm fairly hardcore about WYSIWYG myself, HBMC, and I was just curious as to why you did it this way rather than just magnetising sponson & hull weapons. Surely that would be easier than buying a whole new tank for each option (I realise that you're a dyed-in-the-wool treadhead). I know if I ever finish my Tau, I'd buy 15 magnetised Crisis suits and not 15 * however many combos ther are. Is magnetising just not feasible with the Russ kits?

Cheese Elemental wrote:New argument!

What Leman Russ configurations are going to be the prime for 5th edition? I'm thinking the punisher is going to be pretty popular. The sheer volume of shots is going to overwhelm power lists (Nob bikers, dual lash, etc).

I think the eradicator with its anti-cover save will be the most successful, but I think the Punisher and Executioner will get used alot more.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

aka_mythos wrote:I think with the amount that can be packed into Veteran squads, they will probably be more suited to "suicide" duty.
"Suicide mission HA!--- But The commissar gave us all a pat on the back and some extra weapons--- No, no that's just how he says 'I love you'"

If that's the case, and H-Vets can still get a trio of Meltas for 10 points a piece (and you can bring a small squad), then shove 'em in a Valk and go Land Raider hunting, then that's great. It gives a reason to keep using H-Vets. But at the same time it means that H-Vets are still better than Stormies.

Counter-Point: Using H-Vets in such a role means you are giving up actual scoring units, so that's important to remember.

Ah. Honestly, don't care that much. I just want my ISTs in Valks. That's really what matters the most to me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Only sad part is the Ogryn can't stand in front of the Nob Bikers and take the charge because the Nob Bikers will outnumber the Ogryn!

Well, at least even the most skeptical assessment puts the Ogryns' point cost as slightly lower than that of the Biker Nobz.

Polonius wrote:Stock Russ. Stripped down, and spammed. If 5th edition has taught us anything, it's that AV14 is tough to kill from a distance. Take enough and rip open the enemy. If lumbering behemoth works as we think it does, than adding HB sponsons might not be bad, but it's 20pts that only fire when the tank doesn't move, and 7 sponsons almost gets you another tank.

8 stock russ for 1,200... not bad

Ozymandias wrote:@CE: I think massed S8+ blast templates will do more damage to Nob bikes and dual lash than 20 S5 AP- shots.

It'll be a fun thing to use and will have it's place vs. certain lists (can see it doing well vs. Tyranids) but I still think it's inferior to the standard LR.

maybe, but 87 str 5 shots is pretty good. still no kill due to bs3, but, it softens em up a bit. 10.xx failed saves

Cheese Elemental wrote:New argument!

What Leman Russ configurations are going to be the prime for 5th edition? I'm thinking the punisher is going to be pretty popular. The sheer volume of shots is going to overwhelm power lists (Nob bikers, dual lash, etc).

I think we are still going to be seeing a lot of stock standard LRBT (perhaps even with no sponsons), at 150 points, it's still a great value. Hell even at a 170 it's still not a bad buy and can stand still and unleash a lot of dakka.

Other than LRBT, I think you'll see some PentaPlasma action, which i think will replace our beloved demolisher :( as the terminator slayer. I'm worried about the roll of the demolisher in our new codex, it might just become a tank killer, no sponsons and a hull lascannon. Unlike the Vanquisher you could shoot at armor and still blast with pie.

You'll see the "29 S5" tank, but I think that people might realize that leaving the sponsons off it is a better option. With a 24" maingun, you'll be wanting to move a lot (like the current hellhound).

The underdog is the Eradicator, it costs more points than the LRBT, is only S6 ap4 but ignores cover... It will rock against Orks, but honestly, I don't know why it costs *more* than a LRBT



Right now my mental Heavy selection will be
LRBT x2
Eradicator x2
Griffon x2
= 770 for 6 pie
*Perhaps* add in sponsons... but unless you can move and fire *everything*, I doubt i will.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I'm fairly hardcore about WYSIWYG myself, HBMC, and I was just curious as to why you did it this way rather than just magnetising sponson & hull weapons. Surely that would be easier than buying a whole new tank for each option (I realise that you're a dyed-in-the-wool treadhead). I know if I ever finish my Tau, I'd buy 15 magnetised Crisis suits and not 15 * however many combos ther are. Is magnetising just not feasible with the Russ kits?

Because I want to be able to field any and all of these models simultenously.

For instance, ignoring the fact that getting complete kits from Forge World is more economically sound than just ordering turrets, I could have just ordered four Vanquisher turrets and swapped them out on my existing Russes whenever I wanted to use one. I didn't though, I ordered four complete Vanquisher kits. And I did this because I want to be able to field my Vanqs and my Russes at the same time, and never have to make that choice.

There's also a lot of fluff behind it. I have come up with a lot of fluff for my Guard army, and I like having complete units. My Russes fit into exactly three Companies of 10 Russes each, and each Company has a specific role to play. Yes, it would have been more reasonable to magnatise my Demolishers so I could swap between Multi-Meltas and Plasma Cannons, but I like the fact that I have two MM Demolishers and four Plasma Cannon Demolishers - there's a certain symmetry to having a squadron that has 1 MM and 2 PCs in it. Same goes for all main Russ Company that has three Squadrons that consist of a Vanq and 2 stock Russes.

I like having complete units rather than trying to use one unit to do a bunch of different things. I don't do this always (I have two Chaos Predators, but four turrets to use between them) but I will usually go out and get a second unit than try to make one unit modular.

hmph, according to "The Knowing" on Warseer, Ogryns "cost more than 115pts", and the squad size is 3-7. They are confirmed to lack wargear options, but are eligible for Orders.

If I had to guess, I'd say the average points cost will go over 40. Maybe 130 for the first three, 40 for the rest. That'd be consistent with how squads are usually pointscosted.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, at least even the most skeptical assessment puts the Ogryns' point cost as slightly lower than that of the Biker Nobz.

Yeah but no one's bringing 20 Ogryn to the table now are they? Not only is that a bad choice as far as cost goes, but you'd be too poor to afford the rest of the Guard models if you did - seriously, thems things is expensive! I have one Ogryn and I can't afford any more than that.

[EDIT]: Seven per squad? Why seven? My BS detector is beginning to flash...

I'd've expected six, really. Most people wont go over five, and six is the maximum you can stuff in a Chimera. There are so many conflicting reports on how much they cost, though, that I just dont know.

EDIT: My latest guess above turned out to be exactly right. 130 for three, plus 40 each. Works out to 210 for five. Goddamnit. For a moment there, I tricked myself into having just a tiny bit of hope that maybe there was some way they weren't going to suck quite as badly. But no, we're scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Thanks a fething lot, Robin Cruddace. It looks like Sisters Repentia and Arcoflagellants have a new serious contender for the biggest pile of grox excrement ever put to paper.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Bignutter wrote:Being able to drop 5 of these bad boys off from a valkyre and nuke just about anything for 100 pts (assuming 16 pts each and about 10pts for a melta gun, 20pts for 2)... that'll be worth it

Try 200+ points when you factor in the Valk, and the fact that doing this will require two FOC slots. Not such a good deal. Besides, such a unit will die instantly after shooting. Ok, that's normal for Stormies and things like them, but I don't know if I want to use Stormies as a suicide Melta unit when they're 16 points each.

I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

These troops are nothing like vespid at all. They have three times the number of shots (with orders), better special abilities, the ability to take specialty weapons, longer range, better armor, and have a smaller hit profile. Seriously, its a bad comparison. They are much more analogous to drop pod sternguard which trade up some survivability for the exact same job and being a hell of a lot more expensive.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:I wonder if Orks will win . . .

I remember the BatRep when the Guard Codex was last released. Pete Haines took a foot-slogging Infantry Horde with no HW's in squads and rushed the Orks. LOL!

The edition before that Jervis got himself in a tie against chaos. He claimed he was "too stricken by the beauty of the new plastic Catachans" or something like that.

Just knocked this together using collected rumors including rumored points cost.

command squad + ordnance officer 90
chimera 55

10x veterans 3x meltas 110
chimera 55

10x veterans 3x meltas 110
chimera 55

10x veterans 3x meltas 110
chimera 55

3x leman russ 450

3x leman russ 450

manticore 160

total cost 1750...

6x battle cannons, 1x earthshaker, 1D3 strength 10 ap 4 large blast barrage, 11x heavy bolters 4x multi-lasers, 9x meltaguns that can all shoot out of their firepoint... 11 KP.

That seems pretty powerful of a list. I might have to check it out this weekend.

I wonder if IG will ever get a good CC unit.

Three scoring units!! AH!

You may have fixed the KP issue, but you've just boned yourself in objective missions.

BoxANT wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:New argument!

What Leman Russ configurations are going to be the prime for 5th edition? I'm thinking the punisher is going to be pretty popular. The sheer volume of shots is going to overwhelm power lists (Nob bikers, dual lash, etc).

I think we are still going to be seeing a lot of stock standard LRBT (perhaps even with no sponsons), at 150 points, it's still a great value. Hell even at a 170 it's still not a bad buy and can stand still and unleash a lot of dakka.

Stock Russ. I took a leap of faith about a month ago and bought two Russes in preparation for the new Codex. Assembled them with the bare minimum ( no sponsons, no whistles ) and it seems to have been the right choice, considering these rumours. Pumping excessive amounts of points into a single unit is not the way for Guard.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Three scoring units!! AH!

You may have fixed the KP issue, but you've just boned yourself in objective missions.

I can make it work. I've made it work with other armies with similar survivability (read: eldar and tau)

Its a combination of objective placement, mission type, possible table edge reserves, and conservative play.