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Regarding rough riders, from reds8an on warseer:

No on the meltabombs, no on the opt-out for lances. Soz.

Not pissed. It's not as if I just had a couple squads of converted miniatures invalidated. Not at all.

Do we know if H-Vets can Outflank? That might solve a few issues.

Raxmei - Wait 'til you get a whole army of individually converted and customised miniatures invalidated. That's more annoying.

Why would H-Vets be outflanking? That always seemed like more of a RR thing to me. Vets should just be improved rank-and-file troops with nifty options, like Chaos Chosen. Then again, no-one uses Chosen.

I was musing about Stormies to myself.

It's rumored that stormies get "targeters" and that they might allow stormies to reroll misses. In addition, stormies Vet Sgt might be able to issue orders (or at least they should have access to a Vox).
Valk is said to have the "Scout" rule, so on first turn you should be able to land a squad of Stormies virtually anywhere on the battlefield.
If you pick a juicy squad (noise marines, devastators, sternguards, command squad, ect) and deepstrike a 10man squad of stormies that has 2 plasmaguns, use the order to get an extra rapid fire shot...
You have a good chance in taking out an entire 10man squad of MEQ.

I realize that there is a lot of *if* in this, but I think it is something to think about.


And yes, they would be very vulnerable to being shot up, but you can also run a 2nd Valk with normal infantry that can act as a screen.

Amusingly, my collection of Ogryns, split evenly to squads, went from 405 points to 630. Pretty much exactly a 55% increase. No way in heck are their boosted abilities worth any more than 10%, maybe.

ShumaGorath wrote:These troops are nothing like vespid at all. They have three times the number of shots (with orders), better special abilities, the ability to take specialty weapons, longer range, better armor, and have a smaller hit profile. Seriously, its a bad comparison. They are much more analogous to drop pod sternguard which trade up some survivability for the exact same job and being a hell of a lot more expensive.

actually, it might be two according to the latest rumors. the order that gives a third shot is rumored to only be for lasguns according to reds8n and not all rapid fire weapons as previously mentioned. i think it is a fair comparison. the units are not exactly alike but are used in similar roles: deep striking into the enemies zone to wipe out or at least weaken a single important unit before they die.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Why would H-Vets be outflanking? That always seemed like more of a RR thing to me. Vets should just be improved rank-and-file troops with nifty options, like Chaos Chosen. Then again, no-one uses Chosen.

Heh, it's funny that you mention Chosen cause Chosen do get outflanking...

Yeah, infiltrate has been an aspect of "veteran" units since the big black book in 3rd edition.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Three scoring units!! AH!

You may have fixed the KP issue, but you've just boned yourself in objective missions.

Are you serious?

Do you even think that there will even be an opposing army left after like 3 turns? Especially if Shep gets the 1st turn?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Do you even think that there will even be an opposing army left after like 3 turns? Especially if Shep gets the 1st turn?

If each squadron of Russes has to fire at the same target, then yes, I do.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Three scoring units!! AH!

You may have fixed the KP issue, but you've just boned yourself in objective missions.

I have to disagree. I have a list that uses 3 grenadier squads in chimeras as my only troop choices that does quite well.

abbreviated version

hq- 4 plasma & pistol -90
meltavets -225
RR's x10 x3 - 330
3 demolishers, HB/plaz (I.Comms on 2) 565
gendadiers w/ 2 plasma, chimera w/ smoke, ea, ML hhb x3 - 639

1,849 pts/ KP17. kp17 is a botch but I clear the board with this enough to not worry

My problem, and only real complaint, is I run out of points too fast. I might do more Vet squads than I planned because infantry heavy just soaks so many points so fast. I was originally thinking a Chimera platoon and a HW team-based platoon but that is running possibly almost 1000 pts there, and thats just guessing on Platoon Command Squad costs.

Yeah, deployed and used carefully three scoring units can be enough. I only ran three DA squads in my 'Ard Boys list.

Mickhedd wrote:My problem, and only real complaint, is I run out of points too fast.

In a point-based game, that's a pretty big complaint.

Polonius wrote:Yeah, deployed and used carefully three scoring units can be enough. I only ran three DA squads in my 'Ard Boys list.

I'd argue that three squads of T3 5+ save models are a very different beast. If their Chimera is popped on a "6" you're going to lose 1/2 the squad. (And take a pinning check, too.) I'm hoping to make good use of Veterans, and think a mandatory 10-man unit size is a fair trade off for being able to score, but I can't imagine a three squad IG list working. It'll be too easy for your opponent to force the draw.

I'm pretty interested to see that others are coming to some of the same conclusions I am about IG tanks - naked Russ spam at 150 points a piece being my earliest thought about it. And H.B.M.C. made a good point about something I was thinking about last night after I went to bed. I think the Eradicator is going to be the new Hellhound. It costs more, yeah, but it does the anti-cover save trick from better range like the Hellhound used to. Add to that that you've got a helluva lot better armor and I think it's about worth its points. And, as with H.B.M.C., considering I so derided the Eradicator when I first saw it, I'm having to rethink its usefulness now in the light of the Hellhound nerfing.

I'm also thinking though, that the Devil Dog Melta Blast Cannon may also be worth its points, too. A fast tank/heavy armor killer with a blast template? Does not suck.

Recent bit from Warseer about Rough Riders. Lances no longer ignore armor saves. There was something about not getting bonus attacks, but I can't find the quote and I probably missed something about that. Oh, and they still cost exactly as much as before.

This news has made me reconsider my decision to rearm my RR models with lances in accordance with codex requirements.

No armour save ignoring on RR's? Then... what's the point? What would they do? One use Lances that do... what?

Sorry, I don't buy that. That would be too stupid for words if that happened.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Do you even think that there will even be an opposing army left after like 3 turns? Especially if Shep gets the 1st turn?

If each squadron of Russes has to fire at the same target, then yes, I do.

Because from what I'm seeing, you buy them in lots of 3, but they're not in actual squadrons.

If they have to be in squadrons then yes there will be an army left. But as you essentially admit, if the Russes don't need to be in squadrons then there will be death.

(What you should have said is, "Regardless of whether the Russes will be in squadrons or not, there will still be an opposing army", unless, of course, that isn't what you meant to say.)


:edit: Yeah, from what I've heard, Lances don't ignore saves any more. Good thing I decided to not buy those Rough Riders either.

So... Unless RR's now universally have melta guns, are trrops choices that now have motorcycles and can turbo boost or have hellguns and free meltabombs they suck. Of course, those ideas aren't nearly as stupid as nerfing the lance.

::EDIT: An All cavalry list would be tits on a goldfish!::

Raxmei wrote:Recent bit from Warseer about Rough Riders. Lances no longer ignore armor saves. There was something about not getting bonus attacks, but I can't find the quote and I probably missed something about that. Oh, and they still cost exactly as much as before.

This news has made me reconsider my decision to rearm my RR models with lances in accordance with codex requirements.

WHAT WHAT WHAT! My beloved rough riders! They were THE glass hammer of the guard..... I loved my rough riders. If the rumor above is true, I would be very tempted to shove a rough rider lance all the way up the pee pee hole of the guy who wrote this dex. Then ask him if he still thinks they are not armor piercing while he tries to pull it out.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of RR's not ignoring armour saves. If they can't ignore armour saves, and specifically have a one-shot item that improves their HTH ability, what does it do? Rending?

It can't be Rending? I will call Storm Troopers a good deal and Ogryn a bargain before I accept 11 point RR's that just get a one-shot Rending.

I just can't accept that.

A nerf for RRs is stupid. They should have just taken the god damn horses and guys with idiotic lances out of the sci fi future battle game. That crap didn't work when muskets were around. There are laser canons in this game.

@foil

let me go first with my 5 classic ogryns and 10 new ones. if these rumors are true, this is the most disappointing week 40k-wise in the past 4 months that i've been paying daily attention to IG rumors. i think we'll be seeing alot of tank/skimmer heavy, grunt heavy IG armies without anything other than a paintjob to tell them apart. heck, we should just post the only effective list the codex will allow up on the web and our opponents can access it there. it'll save plenty of trees now that GW is castrating any unit with flavor for the guard.

Kungfuhustler wrote:So... Unless RR's now universally have melta guns, are trrops choices that now have motorcycles and can turbo boost or have hellguns and free meltabombs they suck. Of course, those ideas aren't nearly as stupid as nerfing the lance.

::EDIT: An All cavalry list would be tits on a goldfish!::

Fast Attack, can upgrade two riders with special weapons, are still cavalry, armed with laspistol and ccw by default, sarge has armory access including power weapon, the squad can't buy meltabombs except possibly one from the sergeant's wargear. Lance is still single use and still strikes at S5 and I5, but is no longer a power weapon. There is a special character who gives them Rage, and we all know how useful Rage is.

Am I crazy, or are we down to the bottom of the barrel as far as assault is concerned? The only commonly used assault unit (if you can call it that) that is not yet known to be nerfed is the command squad.

At least they're better than hourmugaunts..

Just when I finish bitz ordering parts to make my custom adeptus mechanicus rough riders, they get nerfed? At least I didn't start on my admech ogryns. On the plus side I not don't have to make a hard choice between rough riders and my GK Termies if rough riders become totally useless.

Just found out what Rough Riders get in return for nerfed lances at the same points cost. Frag and krak grenades. It isn't completely bad. Credit to The Knowing on Warseer.

Raxmei wrote:Just found out what Rough Riders get in return for nerfed lances at the same points cost. Frag and krak grenades. It isn't completely bad. Credit to The Knowing on Warseer.

Hmm, I'm still in the "I don't believe this rumor" camp, but with frag and krak I guess the idea is that we use RRs to attack vehicles, which IMO probably won't work too well. If true, this isn't a great unit.

Wow, these RR and Ogryn rumors are really bad. I dont expect Guard to be a melee oriented army... . but 5th edition is so melee-oriented we need something that can at least hold it's own. And if they can put Lootas in the ork codex they can put SOMETHING melee-competent in the Guard codex. But I'm holding out hope until I can see the whole codex.

As for tanks... I didnt care much for the Punisher really. Sure, 20 shots, whatever, I can do math and know what a 3+ MEQ armor save is. But with the Sgt Armor McDakka tank commander giving BS4... might be worth it. Maybe with x3 HB, pintle heavy stubber, etc. Although the 24" range on the punisher might make that not work.

With the tank commander BS4, I can see Vanquisher cannon, hull lascannon, no sponsons.

Basically, the new tank variants it seems like you want the role of your turret weapon to match the role of your hull weapons. No reason to have a vanquisher with heavy bolters on the hull. Wasteful to have anti-tank sponsons with an anti-infantry turret.

Course all of that is pretty common sense.

I seldom move my x3 bolter/stubber/battlecannon regular russes currently. Aside from ocassionally shifting slightly to get better LOS if a building or such is in the way. So I wonder how the camo netting works, what it will do, if pivoting on the spot to bring bolter sponsons to bear will negate the camo netting, etc.

+++ NEGATIVE COMMENT WARNING +++

No Hunting lances... Why would they do that? WHY?! The unit was the definition of a glass cannon, and thus, it was by definition a balanced unit. It was properly point costed and in competition with other good units for it's FOC slot so most people didn't even spam it like I did. (even if mine were lizardmen)

NERF LIST, FEEL FREE TO ADD TO IT.

Ogryn: 99.9% chance of complete uselessness due to cost.

Rough Riders: 99.9% chance of useless. main weapon gone

Storm Troopers: 75% chance of useless. Cost.

Hellhound: Almost a completely diferent role!

Ratlings: are ratlings. Probably suck too.

Heavy Weapons Teams: 100% NERFED! Easier to kill. multi-wound models suck due to wound allocation. 2 teams side by side on the front line no longer provide cover for one another by putting them on small bases. okay, that was cheaty.

Hardened Veterans: No more 5 man deep strinking teams with 3 plasma guns. Oh, how I will look back on the good ol' days.