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Looking for feedback. Trying once again to do anything other then Dual Lash/Plague Marine/Cult Spam and still give my enemies a run for the money.

HQ:
Abaddon

Troops:
CSM x10
+ Melta Gun x2
+IOCG
+Asp Champion
-PowerFist

CSM x10
+Melta Gun x2
+IOCG
+Asp Champion
-PowerFist

CSM x10
+Plasma Gun x2
+IOCG
+Asp Champion
-PowerFist

CSM x10
+Plasma Gun x2
+IOCG
+Asp Champion
-PowerFist

Elite:
Chaos Termies x10
+Nurgle
x2 Heavy Flamers
x3 Chain Fists

Heavy Support:
Oblit x2
Oblit x2
Oblit x2

Anyone?

Its a great gunline, which is the problem. All of your anti-tank is close up, you need a delivery system, or you need long range guns.

This list has 0 mobility, no way to get Abaddon where he needs to go (CC), and really not enough firepower. If the enemy focuses on your Oblits, he'll then be able to run over any objectives not near your Terminators (and Plasmacannon them into oblivion). The list needs drastic changes. You need to use Cult troops, they are the only things we really have over the loyalists. You need Rhinos, you need a couple Landraiders for the Terminators.

Darkhound:
0 mobility? Oh please...
Run is awsome for non-transport infantry in 5th Ed. Also Abaddon gets stuck in with the termies and together they use the most awsome transport in the Codex... DeepStriking Off Icons. Pending the mission Oblits will do the same tactic... land and shoot something off the board. I mean my god if the IG could do it with a 4 man squad in the last codex on a regular basis then why cant a 10 man termie squad lead by the warmaster himself do it?

I ask for advice, not someone DEMANDING that I build a list like every other fething Chaos build. Perhaps you should re-read my first post. Im trying to stay away from the "traditional" chaos builds. (Lash, Cult Spam, land Raider spam ect ect) because unlike the rest of the lot im trying to think outside the box and build something thats different.

@Ezekk:
Thank you for the comments. Since Im strapped for points, I cant help but wonder if it would be worth it to re-work the wargear on the line squads and drop a Termie to add maybe a Lascannon per squad or Missle Launcher.

Im also toying around with maybe splitting the Termies into two squads of 5 instead of the big 10 man squad.

Here is my 2 cents, I do think you should split up your termies 10 of them is just too large of a foot print for one as well as abbadon can pretty much take care of most things so they are really just there to soak up wounds for him. Splinting up your termies allows you to spread your threat out a bit.

Three chainfists is complete overkill with abbadon and the amount of meltas you have i think the points could deffinately be better spent else where like a rhino or another piece of wargear.

All your squads have power fists and in units with meltas that is pretty redundant i would recommend using PWs which free's up even more points.

I agree lash and cult is over done, but it id difficult as hell to find a competitive build outside of them as well, I wish you the best of luck.

Zhetsuken:
Thank you for the review. It was exactly what I was looking for. Well built and thought out points that didnt demand I do anything.

Give me a min, im reworking a build as I type this...

Ok, also, give the melta squads power weapons, if the meltas can't pop a tank your dead anyway. Sadly, run isn't as effective as you would hope, it CAN be in some situations, but you can't move and shoot which sucks =(.

If you want to go even more non-conformist taking havocs instead of oblits would do it. I really reccomend making one of your CSM squads into Chosen for the infiltrate, 3 troops will be good enough IMO. Give the chosen meltas and stuff and they will be a huge threat. (2x Meltas 2x Combi-Meltas or 4 meltas and the ApsC. with a Combi-Flamer/Powerweapon/Both would be good)

Honestly im getting the feeling that the terminator squad is to big... 10 Termies is clunky to move (5 are also actually, and trust me on this I play deathwing, those bases are really that big... I've had trouble trying to deny LoS and trying to be able to shoot due to my giant bases taking up to much space!) and if the enemy pours all of their fire into that squad, sadly, it would be worth it 100%! Getting 2 squads of havocs instead of oblits (2xLas 2xMissile, 4x Missile, 2x Missile 2x Autocannon, 2x Autocannon 2x Heavy Bolter, you get the picture). Even swapping a squad of marines for havocs in a rhino would be great. The havocs could have the 4 meltas or 4 flamers. 4 Flame templates sounds amazing to me.

Taking summoned Daemons (1 or 2 small squads) and a Greater Daemon would also benefit you greatly. Truthfully the more I think about it the more I hate Abbadon and those Termies. Its so ridiculously expensive and it will annihilate everything it touches, but if it doesn't get into CC or doesn't come in till turn 5 (double Astros (or w/e) ftl...) It will be completely worthless and put you at a significant disadvantage. You would almost have to keep your oblits on the board to cover firing lanes or your enemy could take unrestricted firing lanes and not have to worry about return long range fire support and they could potentially position their heavy weapons to receive your deep striker and take them out quickly or put a on ton of hurt onto your CSM. I reccomend keeping maybe 5 of the termies for a threat, and maybe taking a sorcerer and a lord instead of abbadon. The lord can be a termie lord of nurgle and tele in and then the sorc can just be a deadly unit with Wind of Chaos that will make marines fear you...

ATM if a guard player were to take 2 of the guys that deny you reserves, you could potentially be losing All of your heavy support and your massivly expensive squad.

I think that infantry spam is great, but you need to mix it up a little. CSM themselves are great, so take 10 man havoc squads with 4 Flamers or 4 Meltas or 4 Plasmas! Chosen would also be great for infiltrate and they would just be a threat, they really arn't that much more expensive then CSM, but people will be like (inc. caps lock) CHOSEN THEY MUST BE UBER! KILL THEM WITH EVERYTHING I HAVE!

For other ideas to break the mold:
Take Posessed
Take a Sorcerer on a Daemonic Steed
Take a bunch of Daemons
Go triple Vindicator Spam
Triple CC weapon only dreads (they won't hurt anyone if they go Zerk, no shooty weapons!)
Take 2 squads of 3 Bikers w/IoCG and take a Sorcerer on a Steed or w/Wings. Then the rest is a greater Daemon and Chaos Daemons.
Do above but with raptors

Don't take any shooty dreads, people don't take them for a great reason!

New List:

HQ:
Abaddon

TROOPS:
CSM x10
+Plasma Gun x2
+Asp Champ
+Power Weapon

TROOPS:
CSM x10
+Plasma Gun x2
+Asp Champ
+Power Weapon

TROOPS:
CSM x10
+Plasma Gun x2
+Asp Champ
+Power Weapon

FAST ATTACK:
Chaos Raptor x5
+Melta Gun x2
+IOCG

FAST ATTACK:
Chaos Raptor x5
+Melta Gun x2
+IOCG

FAST ATTACK:
Chaos Raptor x5
+Melta Gun x2
+IOCG

ELITE:
Chaos Terminators x4
+Heavy Flamer

ELITE:
Chaos Terminators x4
+Heavy Flamer

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Oblit x2
Oblit x2
Oblit x2

Changed Alot around. Dropped a few termies for pts and split the squad into 2 units. Took the icons off all the line squads and changed power fists to power weapons. With all the extra points I added 3 units of 5 Raptors with x2 meltas each for fast anti tank.

I like the new list it looks alot more competitive, but I just have to say thats alot of raptors not that thats a bad thing it just took me by surprise lol.

Now go try it out and see what you think. There is no substitute for lots of hands on experience with a list to sharpen it to the point where it is not longer a tool but a weapon.

Good luck.

The list looks pretty good. The only thing I would change now is probably get more flamers on the line troops. Swap one of the pair of P-Gunners for dual FLamers And maybe do the same for one of the raptors. Those flamers will look so much sweeter when you are versing orks and nids. One thing I do like about your list is all the people and squads. My biggest advise is to watch out how much you deepstrike. Also, combine the terminator and raptor squads for KP missions and run 2x3 Oblits probably.

Despite infantry being able to run in 5th edition, a rhino costs pretty much 1 terminator or 2 CSM. While sure you can give up your shooting to get between 1 and 6" of movement, a rhino enables you to always get 12" of movement, and technically 15 since you can unload "within 2"", which means the back edge of your base can be at the edge of 2" from the doors [see rulebook]. AND you can STILL fire. A rhino gets you where you need to go quickly while also protecting you from enemy fire. Imagine moving 12" to an objective and unloading your guns to clear off the remnants of an enemy squad, and take it for yourself. Compare that to running and hoping you get a 6 to possibly contest the objective instead.

You don't need landraiders, and you certainly don't need cult troops. CSM are the best bang for your buck in the chaos codex.

And good luck with Abaddon btw. Poor guy's got a 1 in 6 chance to screw himself. I hate him.

Spellbound wrote:Despite infantry being able to run in 5th edition, a rhino costs pretty much 1 terminator or 2 CSM. While sure you can give up your shooting to get between 1 and 6" of movement, a rhino enables you to always get 12" of movement, and technically 15 since you can unload "within 2"", which means the back edge of your base can be at the edge of 2" from the doors [see rulebook]. AND you can STILL fire. A rhino gets you where you need to go quickly while also protecting you from enemy fire. Imagine moving 12" to an objective and unloading your guns to clear off the remnants of an enemy squad, and take it for yourself. Compare that to running and hoping you get a 6 to possibly contest the objective instead.

You don't need landraiders, and you certainly don't need cult troops. CSM are the best bang for your buck in the chaos codex.

And good luck with Abaddon btw. Poor guy's got a 1 in 6 chance to screw himself. I hate him.

It is true rhinos are cheap but the cost you pay for them is essentially one free kill point and in some lists that not too bad but in a list like what he is going for it can undo everything you work for. It is all to easy to pop 3-4 rhinos on turn one if that the only armor on the board, for example eldar darkreapers can take them apart, ork lootas, tyranids shooty fex's of any variant. tau fire warriors can glance them into uselessness. So as good as rhinos can be for mobility so to can they be your undoing in KP matches which will be 1/3rd of the time.

I agree unless you are running a list built to support the landraiders they usually aren't a good idea.

Abbadon can be random but he also have a 5 in 6 chance of devastating your opponent plus the rest of his list is solid so why not throw in a little randomness for fun. Having a competitive list is all good and well but if you play something you hate it doesn't matter if it wins.

Zhetsuken wrote:It is true rhinos are cheap but the cost you pay for them is essentially one free kill point and in some lists that not too bad but in a list like what he is going for it can undo everything you work for. It is all to easy to pop 3-4 rhinos on turn one if that the only armor on the board, for example eldar darkreapers can take them apart, ork lootas, tyranids shooty fex's of any variant. tau fire warriors can glance them into uselessness. So as good as rhinos can be for mobility so to can they be your undoing in KP matches which will be 1/3rd of the time.

And on the other hand squads that are not in rhino's die in droves to everything you mentioned plus a whole lot more besides. *shrug* the dude can play what he likes but that is false economy. 1/3rd of the time you have killpoints to worry about and 3/3rds of the time a rhino makes your stuff harder to kill and more likely to force an engagement due to mobility. Just because that firepower is not killing rhino's doesn't mean it isn't killing anything, they will just be wiping out squads or oblits or termies instead.

Pinch of salt and all that, but really, go playtest/proxy it against some power builds which is the bench mark and see how you do.

Leotilt has the point here. Anti-infantry heavy weapons will shred foot sloggers. If the enemy has to direct anti-tank rounds off of your Oblits and Terminators to bring down Rhinos before they can even get to dealing with the 3+s, thats 35pts and a KP well spent. Obliterators require anti-tank rounds to dig out, as do Terminators. If the enemy has to spend them on your Rhinos, you're better off for it.

Honestly, I think this list is just fundamentally backwards. You are infantry spamming without using what CSM is good at right now. Our infantry are the best in the game at what each of them does. I'm not suggesting Fzorgle, or Landraider spam (I've yet to see anyone actually do this). This list just feels like it's trying to be a Loyalist list.

Yeah... Dark Reapers and firewarriors might be able to do a small amount of damage to a rhino if they roll a 6.......

But fire warriors will do a lot more to exposed marines and dark reapers will clear a squad off the board. 4 Plasma Cannon devastators "could" destroy a rhino too, but they'll do a LOT more to a squad with much better odds.

Even lootas - if a squad of lootas kills a rhino every turn, they won't buy their points back.

And whenever shooting at a vehicle, you're depending on luck. Sure, a lucky shot might destroy a vehicle. Then again, several unlucky ones might do nothing. It's worth it, I think, rather than near-guaranteed dead dudes.

If I was looking to run CSM without lash or plague marines then I would go rhino rush. CSM squads with double melta, chosen squads with flamers and oblits backing it all up. For HQ I would be tempted to just go with kharn but going double warptime budget prince will also be cool, they are fire magnets.

The entire army is focused into the low end armour levels, small arms fire isnt much to worry about (if they are taking that then the rhino has done it's job) and multi-melta's (and equiv) are overkill so they lose effecincy. The unit's are cheap so they can have lots of redunancy which is good. Yes stuff is going to die, stuff always dies, taking less of it just means losing a greater % of the force when it happens.

This list has loads of mobility and the rhino's keep the guys alive, using /\ shape deployments to protect from assaults and so forth. The chosen can outflank if the goings good or come up behind the CSM squads to lay down multiple flamer templates. Oblits don't always have to deep strike and when they do want to deepstrike the rhino rush has made sure the icons are deep down field for them to use.

Rhino's are built to die but giving up those killpoints in killpoint missions is not the end of the world especially as it means you have tons of CSM, flamers and melta's in midfield ready to stomp stuff from turn 2 onwards, everytime. Even a heavy weight gunline of death isn't gonna chew through them all in one turn.

I haven't actually built a list like this (at work, book is at home) but that is the theory I would work on. It has the tools it needs to kill a wide variety of stuff and it has the mobilty+redundancy to ensure it can deliver them. It will also dominate anyone who lets you refuse a flank on deployment or doesn't set up to counter deepstrike+outflank tactics.

So that's what I would do, it's still not as good as lash+PM+oblit in my view but it at least has the tools and speed to give you a shot at outplaying the other guy. A footslogger list is gonna be in tatters by turn 3 vs just about any of the competative builds, funnily enough especially against lash and definitley against new gaurd mech lists that will be crawling out of the woodwork

I think my point got lost, I was just saying that a lucky shot from a S5 weapon can cost you a rhino and a KP depending on the scenario. No it is not a given and yes it protects your troops from a hailstorm of fire. The other side of that is every list usually brings to the table an adequate amount of anti-vehicle and many of them long ranged, so the chance of loosing half or more of your rhinos on the first turn is not unheard of and in truth is more often then most of us would like.

I agree lash is a more competitive list if a more competitive lists existed that would be the cookie cutter build.

I was just offering a word of caution about running MEQ's mechanized reason being I cannot count the number of games I have won because my opponent gave me so many easy KP's because of troop transports like rhinos.

Plus I tend to favor originality which JP is attempting, albeit originality only lasts for about 10 seconds.

jp400, just because another poster didn't post what you were asking for doesn't mean you should be rude.

Click on the link in my sig to Rule #1, please. And next time, inform him of your displeasure with his post in a poilite manner.

Thank you.