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I'm happy that the cheese is being taken out somewhat, or at least toned down; but I don't think that they'll eliminate it completely.

I sense that there will always be a power creep, just that Dark Angels sort of reset the clock so they can re-creep in a new way from this point on. We've already seen it with Dark Angels -> Blood Angels and I suspect Chaos will be a bit more powerful than both, but no where near as abusable as they are now.

The only thing that's got me worried as far as Chaos is that they're letting people take 9 Oblits in any army. Even with S4 and T4, and no heavy bolters it's not that big of a difference from what they are now. The biggest problem for the Chaos player is that they are IK'ed by Lascannons, which is something they deal with now and 6-9 Oblits are still taken by good IW armies.

Just going on the numbers, I see Tzeench as the new Chaos army to be. For 1500 points you can probably fit 6 Oblits, 2 1k Sons Squads, and a Demon Prince. It'll probably go down to hoard armies, but exactly how common are those?

H.B.M.C, I do see your point, but I also see something else here. They are limited by the basic rules they have created. It is set the way it is now for faster play, and like it or not we can't split fire or usually do more than one thing.

Now within the limitation of the rules they have written, the BA and DA codexes become interesting. They are cookie cutter type units, but there is little bonus or benefit to one over the other.

If you want a las-cannon in a tac squad you buy 10 guys, or you take 5 and buy the razorback. 185pts vs 175pts. With one you are static, and more resilient, the other more vulnerable, but much more mobile.

In heavy, you chose a Dev squad, give it three las-cannons and it comes to 195, and a predator loaded out with las is 165. One again much more survivable, one a little more mobile.

There is a lot of give and take in the codex, and as you can see taking heavy weapons in tac squads isn't as cost effective as taking them in heavy. So it has an odd balance throughout the codex.

Eldar are balanced out differently. (falcons excepting) But each unit other than Harlequins do one thing well. You have to combine all these units to get an effective force. Harlequins are very powerful, and can do multiple jobs, but are expensive and very vulnerable to any shooting and return hits in CC.

I do like the days of yore though, where pretty much any weapon could shoot at any target, there was "running" and different movement rates.

You don't need 2nd Edition rules to go back to that sort of things.

As I've said a number of times on this board, not long after (or before... it's a bit hazy) 4th Ed came out, our group made a collective decision to forget 40K as it stood and write our own rules. We called this the Revisited Project, and it has grown beyond a re-written Eldar Codex into a fully fledged game system.

But we didn't reinvent the wheel. Our rules could be picked up and played by anyone familiar with 3rd or 4th Ed, as it is kind of a 3.5 edition of the rules.

One of the simplest and most effective changes we made was the rule we called 'Fire Control'. Basically you choose two targets for your squad - one primary, one secondary, take an Ld check, and if passed you can fire at the two different targets, and if failed you fire at the primary. At the same time we allowed vehicles to fire at different targets with different guns (like in real life and every piece of 40K artwork).

We didn't have to go back to 2nd Ed with firing arcs and differing save modifiers for every gun and 2D6 damage, 3D6+D20+D3+8 armour pen and all that other nonsense - we just added an Ld check that straight away got rid of the need for all units to be geared towards one thing. Now a Dev Squad with 2 HBs and 2 LCs wasn't a complete waste of time. Neither was the Vet Sergeant upgrade - a primarily HTH orientated upgrade - in something like a Dev Squad, as the Ld9 meant a better chance of passing that Fire Control test.

It was the simplest of rule changes, and in my not-so-humble opinion makes for a better game. In every game of 4th Ed we've played since, one of the biggest thoughts in our heads has always been 'Damn, wish I had Fire Control', or 'Why can't my sponsons, that are on opposite sides of my tank, fire at two different things?'.

It's not complicated.

BYE

Just take a hiatus as I have from the GW universe and play Hordes/Warmachine for a while. Then when it's all balanced and they have gone back around to 2nd edition play again. You laugh, but I see a trend of semi-hero hammer coming back again. Huron in the new codex rumors sounds like he'll be a great Hero to base your force around. I'm sure all the old hero's Arhiman, Karn ect will gets some new buffs. Only problem I see with this new trend is everyone will find the best to take and use only that character. Let me guess your using Mephiston to. Exciting Meph on Meph action round 100. I have seen a little of it with Eldar characters and come to think of it the Eldar dex were the new trial rules for the new hero hammer. Now you can use your Phoenix lords and special characters.

I agree H.B.M.C. that some minor tweaks can make the game much more what we want it to be, the game designers are where they are at with what they have. We don't know if they could put out a "between" edition that would make us happier, maybe something doesn't allow such a project, or people have shot it down. I have heard numerous times that there was a lot cut from the rules that Andy helped write, I would be curious to see what they were.

Every time I play WM I run back to WHFB and 40k for a break. WM has too much to remember. It bogs my head. In 40k there have been few games with few armies I have been wiped out with little chance, WM it happens a lot more frequently!

Mephiston is tough, but that guy has no Inv save!!!

If you take a look at both DA and BA the characters are all toned down and balanced out in different ways.

If you also look, Phoenix lords are also very vulnerable with only one having and inv save. They can't suffer instant death, but even normal troops can whittle them down. They are expensive, and very useful, but no where near the unkillable hero hammer stuff from the old days.

He's T5 and has feel no pain which is the equivalent of a 4+ inv save against everything but strength 10. He should kill anything he comes in contact with. Put him with a squad off J-packers and he can't be singled out by plas/las/Railguns. So besides a railgun to the head he still gets FNP 4+.



Give it time. It's started again with guys like Mephiston and Eldrad. Maugan Ra aint no shab either if played right.

Damn HBMC. I gotta new found respect respect for you. Love the fire control idea...nice

But all are still quite killable. I have seen Eldrad show in few if any games, along with the Pheonix lords. Too many other characters to take instead of Mephiston that influence the army more. Also sticking him with jump packers means you have to rely on him getting his psychic power off all the time. Not getting it off means he is stuck hoofing it while his squad moves in. Any power type weapon will bypass FNP, which is what you normally use against characters anyway. His toughness helps with that, but he still only has 3 wounds. Like Harlequins he has "potential" that in the right situation, he can be devastating, but he has a lot of weaknesses also.

So How bout that chaos codex Rumor. any one got any leads on cult terminators or if vets can be cult?

Being able to take a Doom Siren heavy, infiltrating unit would be nice. I can now using Havoks trading the meltas out and a Vet Sgt. with Lightning claws and a doom siren .
If the rumors are true then that would be 5 AP3 flamers...Nice.  But I doubt that Havoks Termis or Vets will be able to get a Cult Kit. and thats sad because I have a converted Termi unit with Resin cast Sonic blasters I created, cool to us as "combi bolters" but a bit flashy. sucks...both those units are ....i guess Getting broke up when I remake the army.

Characters in Chaos are going to be deadly, they have always been. I am curious how it will balance...

No cult terminators, and chosen are vets that can choose infiltrate?

yeah using the ideas from current rumors and use the new rules for doom sirens. figure in the classic Havok make up. (havoks with 4 Doom siren, vet with lc and doom siren) then the idea that vets will always be able to take infiltrate ....if all that translates into the new version, I'll be a happy camper.

Generic Daemons and the complete removal of the armoury, plus all options for squads. Jesus that's boring.

Worse than that - organisation within a Chaos army! Like requiring numbers to get cerain wepaons, or limiting Terminators to one Reaper AC. This isn't Chaos, this is Order.

Why is it that Warhammer players seem to look forward to rumours of their next Army Book, yet 40K players dread the rumours for the new Codex?

EDIT: And Doobie was right - Cult Troops have become the 'Aspect Warriors' of Chaos. I know that I'll have to take Kharn as well to get 'Zerkers as troops. And I know someone will whine at me 'Just pretend he isn't Kahn!'. You know what - I don't want to have to take Kharn! I want a big bloody Glaive Prince leading my 'Zerker hordes. Not some crazy axe-murderer.

BYE

This just in...an update list of rumors. Lets chew on this.

Generic Points:
- Daemon summoning to remain basically the same
- All daemonic gifts are gone
- most god specific wargear is gone
- Veteran skill upgrades are gone
- books of chaos are gone
- no special rules for any specific legion
- Marks/Icons work as follows Khorne +1A, Tzeentch 5+ invul save or +1 to existing invul save, Slaanesh +1I, Nurgle +1T. The units which can take them are identified as such below.
- Daemon weapons are generic, simply give +1S and +D6 attacks, but if a 1 is rolled something bad happens
- there may be "upgrades" to the basic daemon weapons for the 4 specific gods, but that is a discrepancy between 2 sources
- daemonic steeds do exist, simply giving IC's which are given them stat bonuses. A juggernaught of Khorne gives the character +1S and +1A, but he takes up 2 spots in a land raider. Others include tzeentch discs, steeds of slaanesh, and nurgle palanquins
- most troops come with a bolter, bolt pistol, ccw, and frag and krak grenades as standard (yes, all of those)
- Rhinos reduced in points cost, as in the Dark Angels codex.

NOTE: there are no cult units beyond those listed in the troops section. For example, the only plague marines are the "plague marines" unit entry in the troops section. You cannot take plague marine havocs or plague marine terminators. You can give terminators the mark of Nurgle, but they only gain +1T, they do not get FNP or blight grenades. This is true for all 4 gods.

HQ
Lord
- comes with daemonic aura as standard
- can be marked

Sorcerer
- can be marked,
- there is one god specific psychic power for each god (except Khorne) and many of the existing psychic powers remain
- new power 'warp time' allows re-rolls to hit and to wound in close combat
- nurgles rot acts like a pandemic staff
- bolt of change is AP1

Daemon prince
- may be marked
- may have pychic powers

Generic Greater Daemon
- does not take HQ slot
- does not fly
- CANNOT be marked

Typhus
- has the nurgles rot power without a psychic test
- has daemon weapon that is also a force weapon

Abaddon
-Talon/Drachn'yen now one weapon. Counts as a Daemon weapon (DW's are a generic weapon now, all grant +D6 attacks and +1S, but if a 1 is rolled you cannot attack) but it doubles his Strength and you can re-roll failed hits and wounds.

Arihman
- can use 3 psychic powers a turn including force staff
- knows all the chaos psychic powers except the god-specific Slaanesh and Nurgle powers

Kharn
- more or less the same as he is in the current dex except:
- gorechild has 2D6 penetration vs. vehicles
- he's immune to all psychic powers.
- WS 8? maybe?

Lucious

Fabius Bile

Huron Blackheart
-Tyrant's claw is a powerfist with built in heavy flamer.
-Hamadyra grants him the "Warp Time" psychic power (WT allows you to re-roll all failed hits and wounds in HTH)

ELITE
Possessed
- have a randomly generated ability (nothing, fleet, power weapons, furious charge, rending, feel no pain)

Terminators
- one reaper autocannon
- may all be upgraded to aspiring champions with +1A
- can be marked

Chosen
- only unit with infiltrate
- can be marked

Dreadnaughts
- may be given 2ccw
- frenzy table still exists but is slightly changed

TROOPS
Chaos space marines
- can be marked
- min size need for some weapon upgrades
- aspiring champion limited to basic wargear upgrades (PW, PF, PP)

Khorne Beserkers
- have the +1A over normal marines, WS5 and furious charge
- no bloodfrenzy or chainaxes

Plague Marines
- +1T, blight grenades, feel no pain

Noise Marines/Emperors children
- +1I and access to sonic weapons
- doomsiren AP3
- blastmaster on max power is a small blast krak missile

Thousand Sons
- slow and purposeful on 1 dice
- AP 3 bolters (inferno bolts)
- 4+ invul save
- only 1 wound
- sorcerer sergeant with 2 psychic powers, but no power fist option, and allows 2d6 for slow and purposeful

Generic Lesser Daemons
- do not take up a troop slot
- CANNOT take marks

FAST ATTACK
Raptors
- no more hit and run
- can be marked
- price reduced

Spawn
- may be beasts/cavalry

NO Daemon beast units

Bikers
- can be marked

HEAVY SUPPORT
Obliterators
- CANNOT be marked
- S and T 4
- no longer 0-1
- possibly lose power fists for power weapons (contested)
- possibly only access energy weapons, not ballistic weapons (ie lascannons but not bolters)

Vindicator
- currently highly contested between two sources

Land Raider

Predator

Defiler
- no more indirect fire
- WS3
- can trade in some of its shooting weapons for more CCW having up to 6A
- can be given fleet

Havocs
- Can be marked
__________________________________________________________________
Does this "Talon/Drachn'yen now one weapon. Counts as a Daemon weapon" mean a resculpt is for sure?

Possessed are weak as H3ll now.

"aspiring champion limited to basic wargear upgrades (PW, PF, PP)"my Lightning claws are out S.O.B.

Raptors now suck.

Oblitz rules are lookin shaky and very "Rumorish" (

ok ok

I give cry babys a Hard time so all ^this^ being said,

I can break my havoks with Blastmasters and Sonic blasters into now needed Noise marine troops. The doom sirens can go as Sgts...Loosing my Lightning claws sucks.

I don't run possessed anyway so who cares.


I wonder is we can run a mix of the cults as troops...can I run other cults besides noise marines? can I walk a unit of World Eaters up behind a crushing gun fire of the 1000 sons? (well one way or another I can, but as troops)
because if thats the case

really really....I making a mentors off shoot legion With high tech gear to represent the different legions. run Huge Imperial eagles On all my Stuff. and as for w.i.c.y.t.w.a.k.p.r.t.i.s.g. I.E. knowing whos who and whats what...have a copy of my list w/ pics of unit right on em'.....

so in closing regardless I can work with this list, if All the cults can be troops...I can really really work with this. (auto cheese install) not too bad all in all. the raptor bit burns me bur hey...I bet the new model being sculpted is because he can't take Lightning claws.

also with the way the demons are so...vague, I bet the next dex is going to be about all 4 cults and list for each army w/ demon rules...thats my guess. now the floors yours.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/25/2007 9:21 AM
Generic Daemons and the complete removal of the armoury, plus all options for squads. Jesus that's boring.

Worse than that - organisation within a Chaos army! Like requiring numbers to get cerain wepaons, or limiting Terminators to one Reaper AC. This isn't Chaos, this is Order.

Why is it that Warhammer players seem to look forward to rumours of their next Army Book, yet 40K players dread the rumours for the new Codex?

EDIT: And Doobie was right - Cult Troops have become the 'Aspect Warriors' of Chaos. I know that I'll have to take Kharn as well to get 'Zerkers as troops. And I know someone will whine at me 'Just pretend he isn't Kahn!'. You know what - I don't want to have to take Kharn! I want a big bloody Glaive Prince leading my 'Zerker hordes. Not some crazy axe-murderer.

BYE

I don't have a problem with generic daemons., and I can't find the 3.5 edition 'dex's daemons interesting enough to call this a "rules/fluff murdering" case.  One entry, four daemon-types, insert special ability here to relate to Chaos God. But I respect that some people liked it - just as I dislike what they did with the Possessed (random generation - a step backwards IMHO).

But what you said about organization is a bit daft, if you don't mind me saying so. Why wouldn't they be organized? Because Chaos is supposed to be random and capricious? C'mon, just because they're evil doesn't mean they're idiots. Like Chaos Gods requiring that squads be 6, 8 or whatever sacred number. Chaos is called "Chaos" because the Imperium perceived itself as Order, and by the Eldar because of the nature of the Warp. And probably because it was "born" in the eighties and it sounded cool (I don't know how much of Moorcock's work has been copy-pasted into Warhammer).

But your suggestions to the game in a previous posts were quite good, but the problem inherent to it is track-keeping, which I think the GD's are trying to avoid like plague.

I wish I could say that this would be the first Chaos Codex and as such it was dedicated to Marines (and generic ones at that) without too much daemonic presence or "God" influence, and that the other one was supposed to address these problems. As it stands, I can see why it's so much of a disappointment to many Chaos players...

If even ten percent of the new Chaos Rumors are true, it means that:
1. GW has decided to take most of the fun out of playing one of the most popular armies in its most popular game.
2. To make things even, future Codices will need to do the same to all of the other armies.

Well, I was hoping that I would have more free time and be able to start playing 40k again sometime soon. Instead I think that I?ll join the ranks of gamers who dumped their armies on eBay.

5deadly- the Eternal Enemies rule is gone now. You can now have different units from each God and mark them once from any of the 4 Gods. So now there can be Berzerkers with Tzeentch. There are no more "pure" WE/TS/DG/EC armies anymore.

Seeing things like this keep motivating me to make an IG army with those cheap army men, we all played with as kids. They are 25mm+a GW base makes them pretty much the same height. Also, if you use 1:48 to 1:35 scale vehicles, they are almost identlical to the dimensions of IG vehicles. Paint them up and viola, instant/cheap IG army. Every time a new book comes out, I just dread all the new models/alterations I have to do with my models and numerous army lists.

hmmmm walking WorldEaters. behind 1000 sons... 4+ screen troops with wizards... so I can make a Mentors off shoot legion now...

Way to take the chaos out of chaos. I'm still on the wait and see boat but it's tempting to leep off into the murky depths.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just not deep into the most recent Chaos Codex, but this looks mostly fine to me; a lot like the old 2nd edition codex. (Hides)

So.....

Anybody that plays Black Legion is going to be like "HOORAAAY!" except that now Doobie sux.

Everybody that played a specific legion (alpha legion to thousand sons) is going to be like...HOORAY, all our armies are the same now so we don't have to remember confusing rules!

Everybody that plays space marines is going to say..."HOOOORAAAY, Now I can proxy all my regular marines as chaos troops to decide if I want to start a new army, since there is no difference between the two anymore! And then, why even buy new figs!"

Actually, if all marines are going to look like dark angels....then really, all you'll have to do is buy a few special characters and some odds and ends on a core of plastic marines, and they can be ANYTHING, chaos or imperial, especially with the "Counts As" rule.

The next big change in 5th edition will then be, you don't have to have the same army list for every game of a tournament. Soooooo, one game, you can be Chaos, the next, Dark Angels, then etc etc. And they won't even have to be painted!

So you'll deploy a gaggle of Bolter marines, and your opponent will do the same, and then you have to guess what he's got while you try to remember what you have! And who wins is determined by both players rolling a D6, highest wins!

Interesting view on something that's isn't out yet.

I like that they've brought back the old Possessed rules.

They were one of my fav units from the last codex. Then they got those terrible models. Now they have random abilities (with the chance of no ability)! Huzzah.

Oh well. I doubt I'll start a new Chaos army now anyway, and I guess it does make sense fluff-wise.

Me too. Random powers are awesome and that's a fact. I especially love it when you pay pts for the chance to get something but if you roll a 1 you get nothing instead! Now that's fun for everyone!!

In fact, I think they should take this idea further. For example, in the daemon codex they should have a daemonic instability rule where you roll a D6 at the beginning of the battle and on a '1' your army is unstable and disappears! Now that's what I call 'chaotic'! Yay!!

They could also use my fantastic idea for randomly generated "Khorne warbands" that have all sorts of special rules, but I don't think they ever will since I came up with it and they'll have to pay me royalty or something if they were to use my awesomely unique special rules.

That's a bit unbalanced. If they had that rule, then Marines should have a similar rule right?

"Divine Light" - on a D6 roll of 6, the enmy have fled from your divine light and the game is yours. Every marine in the army adds one re-roll.

There we go, that looks fair.

 

Seriously though, Possessed suck if the random ability rumour is true. They were a pretty ahrd hitting unit in the last codex, high strength MEQs with Rending (although they did cost loads, and there were transport issues). Now you invest a load of points in a squad that could end up being utterly useless.

all this rumours really afraid me... IF GW do that, I'll think to stop collecting new armies.

the new GW policy is really awesome: they can"t controle players in tournaments, so they left the fun in the game:

"remember, henceforth U can't do that..."

I play an EC army for a long time now, and I'm really disapointed for all of this: no more "special" demons, no more terminator cultists, no more havoc, and equipement for champions restricted ? WTF !? that really makes me mad... sorry for that !

any word on cultists on bikes ??

so do I'll have to wait over a year to play again my army or GW is doing something good for cults ???

anyway, I'll be doing my own Dex to play an EC army...

Good (dark) lord I should stop reading these Chaos rumors O_O


Last night I finally finished my 1k Son sorcerer with powerfist, and he's probably my best paintjob yet. I will not be breaking the model up in September, so opponents - assuming I still play 40k then - will have to deal with the powerfist being run on low as a power weapon. Same goes with my Kai Gun AC - that's a power weapon now, I guess. Damn, I can't even give him a combi-bolter!

And more fun? The last models I have to paint to make 2000 points is my chainfist-armed terminator lord, and 6 furies - neither of them exist come Sept

*insert vomiting smiley here, ala Nyarla*

- Boss Salvage

EDIT: I also heard that mutated hull is gone, across the board.  So now I have points to spend on great new possessed!

Posted By fourganger88 on 05/29/2007 2:14 PM

 Now you invest a load of points in a squad that could end up being utterly useless.

  I know.  I've heard that assault cannons suck if you roll all ones and twos, too.  There's just nothing dependable in this game!

All things being equal, unless the possessed themselves are worthy of play without the benefits of the random rolls, then it would be economically imprudent to take them.

Hopefully, the Possessed would be much more cheaper if this is true with the random powers bit; maybe the powers on the roll are significant....who knows.

However, they may be stout enough without a power...and I guess that would probably define what powers they would be able to have in the first place without "inbalancing" them.

They may have some high stat improvement and maybe a movement power/increase....