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Posted By jfrazell on 06/13/2007 6:33 AM

At 13 points a common tac marine is significantly better.  Why would anyone buy demons at this price?

If that rumor is accurate, I agree with you...and think that's kind of the point.  It seems like everything is geared to putting the focus back on regular CSMs, which are more and more looking like the best unit in the codex (assuming they don't rise significantly in points).  I understand the rationale, but I think they aren't seeing the forest for the trees.  Chaos needs to be colorful. 

There's also the rumored LatD/Daemon codex, which purportedly will have more daemon varieties.  Who knows if CSM players will be able to "ally" with units from that codex?  Doesn't make a lick of sense to me that they'd make daemons generic for CSM players, only to give back options a little while later.  But if we assume plastic daemons will be the major part of that release, GW will have financial incentive to make this happen.

i guess at 65 points you could add them as a cheap scoring unit. but currently that wold be only 5 points ceaper then the 5 chaos marines ewww.
space marine scouts are a better buy then deamons that is sad.

Posted By Alpharius on 06/12/2007 6:43 PM
That's because it is over here:

www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/postid/169257/view/topic/Default.aspx

However, it will allow me to say again that the Metals are crud and the plastics, as far as I can tell, look pretty good.

Of course, the Codex itself seems pretty suspect, so, I guess it is a wash?

I'm terribly sorry. I looked better in the Forums main page, and I saw that thread... I was going to erase mine if only my internet connection hadn't failed 'till about now :p

Posted By gorgon on 06/13/2007 7:03 AM

Posted By jfrazell on 06/13/2007 6:33 AM

At 13 points a common tac marine is significantly better.  Why would anyone buy demons at this price?

If that rumor is accurate, I agree with you...and think that's kind of the point.  It seems like everything is geared to putting the focus back on regular CSMs, which are more and more looking like the best unit in the codex (assuming they don't rise significantly in points).  I understand the rationale, but I think they aren't seeing the forest for the trees.  Chaos needs to be colorful. 

There's also the rumored LatD/Daemon codex, which purportedly will have more daemon varieties.  Who knows if CSM players will be able to "ally" with units from that codex?  Doesn't make a lick of sense to me that they'd make daemons generic for CSM players, only to give back options a little while later.  But if we assume plastic daemons will be the major part of that release, GW will have financial incentive to make this happen.

I understand your point and agree that may be what they are trying to do. However, if the point is a balanced codex with multiple choice this fails the test, as it creates the same situation of no brainer takes and don't takes.  I thought the whole point was trying to get away from that. As the rumor of plastic demons is strong, I would have thought that demons would be "niftier."  Mayhaps they will have some sort of mark option after all, or there is something else afoot. Else there would be no reason to get these guys.

I'd guess they feel that daemons not scattering (icons will purportedly act as teleport homers) helps balance the loss of special abilities.  But I tend to agree that you'll see daemon usage fall off dramatically if that profile is accurate.  This codex is going to be controversial among the player base, to be sure. 

Seems like the rumors are pointing toward plastic daemons next year, so maybe they'll get niftiness in the rumored new codex.  But then again, the winds of Tzeentch are a-blowing at GW.  You'd think Terminators and Possessed would get some great rules buffs because of the nice plastics, but that doesn't seem to be the case...

Posted By gorgon on 06/13/2007 7:03 AM

Posted By jfrazell on 06/13/2007 6:33 AM
At 13 points a common tac marine is significantly better.  Why would anyone buy demons at this price?

If that rumor is accurate, I agree with you...and think that's kind of the point.  It seems like everything is geared to putting the focus back on regular CSMs, which are more and more looking like the best unit in the codex (assuming they don't rise significantly in points).

Well there's the rub, eh?  If CSM go to something like 18-20 pts each then the daemons start looking cheaper by comparison.

Well, with all the whining that accompanies Chaos (Especially about any advantage that Chaos has that loyalists don't)...It seems the best possible Chaos list will look almost identical to a loyalist Marine list.

How do you say that?

I'm guessing the "best" builds for Chaos will be something in the realm of 9 Oblits (since everyone can do it now), Demon Prince, and then whatever troops tickle your fancy. For shiny anti-MEQ's it could be 1kSons or for more anti-troop (if Oblits can't morph heavy bolters anymore) then you could go with Noise Marines.

So if the Demons don't get rending or power weapons Demon Bombs will go away, do you really think that was something that was going to be allowed to stay as it was?

EDIT: On further thought, it'll probably be something on the line of 6 Oblits or something silly with points going other places.  I still don't think you'll see things end up being like Loyalists.  What you will likely see the end of is the Demon Bomb and the super-IW list.

Posted By gorgon on 06/13/2007 8:14 AM

I'd guess they feel that daemons not scattering (icons will purportedly act as teleport homers) helps balance the loss of special abilities. 

I had not see that rumor.  The rumors I've seen had the summoning rules as unchanged. Thatb would indeed be a nice hidden buff if accurate. Having said that, without some sort of marklike thing, special abioity or brutally good save, those stats and costs are "not efficient." Even if the standard chaos marine costs more, if your demon is less effective then sa standard vanilla tac marine then those points are going to go somewhere else.

GW's not stupid though. If they are making new minis, especially plastic, then I would have suspected better stats.  Of course we're dealing with rumors here. Who knows?

 

GW isn't always following the mantra of "new plastic model = sick new rules".

Look at the possessed, they're going to have terrible rules by the looks of it unless the points cost is stupidly low.

DA Vets are another example, new kit, terrible squad.

Chaos Termies probably will have the same problem, 1 RAC per squad, with no tank hunters to help buff it? I don't think so.

Good points VB, much to GW's detriment.

Posted By Tribune on 06/12/2007 5:11 PM
Sorry to only reply to your conjecture with more conjecture, but I don't see any AP3 weapons coming other than the already much mooted Thousand Sons buff.

Reapers will be as is, and no evidence to suggest at all otherwise so far, that I've seen. Let me know if there's any counter evidence, of course.

GW have tended to very much ration out the "low AP-firing" units within each list and CSM should not be any different. Your AP3 love is likely to go largely unrequieted, methinks.

Hey, AP3 Doom Siren was on the list of rumors.  If that and the TS getting AP3 bolters are true, it just makes me wonder if Chaos is being built as an anti-3+ army.  Buffing the RAC to AP3 would help there too, and give something useful for Chaos termies (and would be nice, as the new plastics look fantastic...).  Of course, I've been of the opinion all autocannons should be AP3 for a while now, anyway.

Posted By skkipper on 06/13/2007 7:19 AM
i guess at 65 points you could add them as a cheap scoring unit. but currently that wold be only 5 points ceaper then the 5 chaos marines ewww.

With the daemon summoning rules, even with that poor statline (what about save? -/5+?), at 13 points they're still a decent countercharge unit.

Of course, I still think the problem with daemons was summoning, not the abilities of the models themselves, but still...

Hrm.

With havocs not having access to veteran skills and all lists taking Oblits as HS... Damnit, I'm going to have to learn how to paint Oblits. They're pretty close to my least favorite Chaos model. bleh.

Hmm, myself and others think DA company vets are one of the best things in the dex. You can field them like 13th company storm claws with transport options or one shot rapidfire killing machines that can take a charge. YMMV.

But chaos terminators are looking fairly awfull if they go to 1 heavy per squad. For me, it depends on how much the unit costs, as well as the marks. T4(5) termies at a good cost is still tempting.

Also, the daemon stats sound pretty bad to me, if only for the cost (same stats as 13th comp fenris wolves but more expensive and don't have beast movement). If they were cheaper, they'd be tempting but at that price they're a hard sell.

Plus, making them not count toward troops and the loss of vet skills already nerfs most daemon bombs (atleast the infiltrating, prince delivered, daemonwing or bike variety).

As always, everything depends on the point costs. The marks/icons and cult units might be overly expensive. Actually, if I had to bet, I'd say they will be. And what if Oblits get a slight points hike to go with their minor nerfs? I have a feeling Oblits won't be as compelling as you think, especially because they're a (probably unfairly) complained-about unit already.

Looking at things without point costs, I'd think it'd be hard to pass up the Tzeentch mark/icon on Terminators (giving them a 4+ inv). But the points might tell a different story. *shrug*

I have a feeling the "optimum" lists of the future will be mishmashes...Terminators with a certain mark, Raptors with another, DPs with another, lots of unmarked CSMs, etc. Then in the next CSM codex, GW will decide CSM armies lost flavor and single-god purity, so you'll see the pendulum swing the other way, and so on, forever and ever, Amen.

Oblits are getting a bit of a nerf, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had a price hike too. I don't see people basing armies off of them.

Raptors are becoming almost exactly the same game-wise as Loyalist assault marines.

From the sounds of it, daemon weapons won't see much use if the rumors about them are true (Roll a 1 on the number of attacks and you lose all your attacks, plus take a hit yourself from the weapon).

Generic daemons and greater daemons (Especially since the GD's move at infantry speed) means we won't be seeing much of those.

The Thousand sons that everyone is raving about are rumored to be ~300 points for a squad of 9. I see them mostly like Vespids. Everyone goes gaga over the AP:3 gun, but then the cost of the unit comes into play compared to the output.

The rumored requirement for a 10 man squad to have a heavy weapon.

All the things that make Chaos Chaos in a competetive list are being lost.

I'm sure you'll see preds, Havoks, Raptors (depending on cost), and CSM squads.   That's about it.

Cool, so I guess I won't have to tool lists against "Chaos" anymore if they effectively become the Spiky Spaz Marinerz.

Spiky Spaz Marinerz HURR!


Sorry, couldn't resist.

Posted By skyth on 06/13/2007 11:40 AM
Oblits are getting a bit of a nerf, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had a price hike too. I don't see people basing armies off of them.

Well, not so much basing armies off of them, but using them as primary heavy support.  The nerfs look to reduce their resilience to small arms as well as their assault capability -- it remains to be seen how viable they will be as heavy weapons platforms, but their ability to get in the thick of things is definitely getting nerfed to hell.

The big thing overall seems to be reducing Chaos from the assault army to marines with different options.

Ungodly lords in assault?  Remove the armory.

Bloodthirster too bloody?  Clip his wings.

Daemons too strong in assault?  Remove their armor save ignoring abilities.

Hell, if anything, non-IW shooty Chaos may get stronger. Just at the expense of a radical shift in assault capability.  Which kinda sucks as most non-IW Chaos leans pretty heavily to assault...

Posted By skyth on 06/13/2007 11:40 AM
I'm sure you'll see preds, Havoks, Raptors (depending on cost), and CSM squads.   That's about it.

But better versions of all those units will still exist in loyalist codex.  So you're basically playing loyalists minus ATSKNF, drop pods, assault cannons, and cheap las/plas squads.  This is why I think the most effective Chaos lists will be taken from the loyalist codex.  Until the loyalist codex gets nerfed there's really no reason not to just use "counts as".

Thats what I would do for Alpha Legion anyway.

I'm not sure how you see Oblits nerfed to Hell. T4(5) is now T4, which means that against the biggest worries Oblits have, Plasma, Lascannons, they're not really any different than they are now, and I still see plenty of IW armies jumping at 9 Oblits or at least 6 of em. Sure if they're getting rapid fired by Bolters, it's not as good, but give the range on their guns they shouldn't BE getting rapid fired by bolters, and they're still 2+ saves with 2W, that's pretty damn resilient.

As far as the S nerf goes, OK, they're a shooting unit, now you have to keep them out of assaults, ditto for the problem on power fists. Compared to Preds, Havoks, and everything else in Heavy, I'm going to guess that multiple squads of Oblits will be the new best way to pack lots of Lascannons and AP2 into an army.

Posted By Lowinor on 06/13/2007 10:27 AM

Posted By Tribune on 06/12/2007 5:11 PM
Sorry to only reply to your conjecture with more conjecture, but I don't see any AP3 weapons coming other than the already much mooted Thousand Sons buff.

Reapers will be as is, and no evidence to suggest at all otherwise so far, that I've seen. Let me know if there's any counter evidence, of course.

GW have tended to very much ration out the "low AP-firing" units within each list and CSM should not be any different. Your AP3 love is likely to go largely unrequieted, methinks.

Hey, AP3 Doom Siren was on the list of rumors.  If that and the TS getting AP3 bolters are true, it just makes me wonder if Chaos is being built as an anti-3+ army.  Buffing the RAC to AP3 would help there too, and give something useful for Chaos termies (and would be nice, as the new plastics look fantastic...).  Of course, I've been of the opinion all autocannons should be AP3 for a while now, anyway.

Thanks, I didn't see any AP3 doom siren rumour, got a link?

I personally can see no correlation between that and making the list 'Anti-3+'. While MEQ is prevalent, they won't make such a list.

Perhaps a gentleman's wager is called for?