Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

From Warseer:

---

Khorne:
Bezerkers now WS5 and have furious charge, Chainaxes and blood frenzy gone.

Tzeentch:
TS Bolters now AP3, Sorcerers are key to the squads though as without them they roll their SAP on 1D6.
Sorcerers come with Force Weapons 

Nurgle:
PMs with FNP (but we knew that already)
All have Blight grenades, work like Tau Photon Grenades

Slaanesh:
Mark gives +1I
Blastmaster on full mode now a blast Krak Missile
Doom Siren now AP3

Now for some Special Character bits.

Abaddon: Talon/Drachn'yen now one weapon. Counts as a Daemon weapon (DW's are a generic weapon now, all grant +D6 attacks and +1S, but if a 1 is rolled you cannot attack) but it doubles his Strength and you can re-roll failed hits and wounds.

Typhus: Daemon Weapon too, but is also a Force Weapon 

Ahriman: Can use 3 psychic powers a turn, including his force weapon

Huron Blackheart: (yes he is in there, i've seen the fig) Tyrant's claw is a powerfist with built in heavy flamer. Hamadyra grants him the "Warp Time" psychic power (WT allows you to re-roll all failed hits and wounds in HTH)

---

Frankly, I like what I see here, and my undivided army happens to have 1 squad of 1k Sons and 1 squad of Noise Marines with blastmaster  :|

Still sad that my Kai Gun seems to be long gun, but ah well I suppose.  Best painted heavy bolter CSM ever!

- Boss Salvage

Hmmm...
I dunno.
I like that there's Huron Blackheart rules.
The rest seems...
Well put it this way. If the new rules for the special characters are any indication then Chaos won't be so chaotic any more. Abbadon's weapons, both of them, are now covered under one rule and a generic one at that. If anyone should have rules unique to them it's Chaos special characters. Imagine what the rest of the list might look like.
I'm not as keen on this trend as I was...

AP3 Tzeentch bolters? GW's practice of making what sucked rock and making what rocks suck is alive and well.

As nice as AP3 bolters are (and they are oh so nice), one of the sons main problems is their mobility. So unless they got the key as a psychic power, I think that the sons will be a unit that GW tried to buff, but missed. Any word on rubric termies? Are they going to still be allowed and if so, do the combi-bolters get AP3 too? Btw, cranky about demon weapons...the only way to get S8 is FC+DW+DStat+DStr...which means no terminator armor. grr...

Chaos is chaotic! You can tell, 'cause they have more SPIKES and SKULLZ than loyalist marines!

I liked it better when this book was goiing to be non-Cult; the cult info is underwhelming, and the lack of options is going to seriously discourage those of us who played Chaos for the interesting flavor it offered, rather than just for overwhelming power. I don't play loyalist marines; I won't be playing "Chaos" marines, if they're just loyalists dressed in different colors.

Reroll ALL missed hits and wounds?!?! Woh, that's pretty crazy. I hope it's a once a game thing!

Any word on when this is being released?

Posted By Sgt_Scruffy on 05/16/2007 8:13 AM
AP3 Tzeentch bolters? GW's practice of making what sucked rock and making what rocks suck is alive and well.

Except that Thousand Sons are still SAP, are going down to 1 wound each, there is supposedly only one tzeentch specific psychic power (bolt of change), and we'll have to take psychic tests to cast.

Basically screws my rhino based thousand sons :/

Posted By Polonius on 05/16/2007 9:18 AM
Any word on when this is being released?

september.

Posted By ether dude on 05/16/2007 8:21 AM
As nice as AP3 bolters are (and they are oh so nice), one of the sons main problems is their mobility. So unless they got the key as a psychic power, I think that the sons will be a unit that GW tried to buff, but missed.

  Can't 1K Sons use Rhinos to get around?  If all they're going to do is unleash rapid-fire death anyway, transports could be a viable option.  Aren't Chaos Rhinos more durable than loyalist ones? 

  I'm happy to hear about Huron Blackheart, as the Badab War and renegades are interesting to me. 

Posted By Pariah Press on 05/16/2007 10:02 AM

Posted By ether dude on 05/16/2007 8:21 AM
As nice as AP3 bolters are (and they are oh so nice), one of the sons main problems is their mobility. So unless they got the key as a psychic power, I think that the sons will be a unit that GW tried to buff, but missed.

  Can't 1K Sons use Rhinos to get around?  If all they're going to do is unleash rapid-fire death anyway, transports could be a viable option.  Aren't Chaos Rhinos more durable than loyalist ones? 

  I'm happy to hear about Huron Blackheart, as the Badab War and renegades are interesting to me. 

No? Still 11/11/10. Nobody pays 30 points to give them +1 AV. And with only one wound each, putting them in a rhino is MUCH more risky, because they don't have the resiliance to withstand being pinning for a turn in the chance that their rhino explodes.

AP3 is nice against MEQ, but they will be largely useless against GEQ, Orks, or Nids... we'll be paying alot of points for AP3 when just basic AP5 bolters will ignore a majority of armor saves.

Clarification - I like what I see in the power level still being up for the Chaos cults, not a complete nerfing of them back to CSM with 1 stat boosted. I will forever lament the loss of customization and options in the new 40k codecii, and that includes when I've been pushed out of 40k due to $$$$$$, life or blandization itself.

The loss of cool special character equipment and rules is indeed sad, but now they're all more or less deadhard killers who don't break the game open like Eldrad and his "must have" character ilk. The chaos crew are damn killy, and given what the new chaos lord may be (read: not damn killy), they may be hitting the table pretty consistently, but they don't change how the Chaos army fights. Hypothetically .

- Boss Salvage

So what's the math on 16 AP3 shots?

16 shots, 32/3 hits, 32/6 wounds, or 5 1/3 dead marines. Pretty dang impressive.

AP3 bolters is pretty sexy if the price per marine isn't too high.

FNP could be incredible if they keep T5. If not, it is still a significant benefit as it increases their survivability against AP3 threats.

I like the Slaanesh +1 I, even if it isn't as good as Warp Scream. Some AP on the Blastmasters and Doom Siren really surprised me in a good way. Maybe my EC can still be killy and shooty....Here's hoping daemonettes stay sexy!

Khorne still seems to be pretty weak. No blood frenzy is ok, but means they are still foot sloggers. Now if they got jump packs ala Blood Angel rumors....

For anyone who hasn't checked out the thread (or isn't interested in reading 16+ pages of thread), the same poster also indicated that there will be a second codex focusing on daemons and LatD in spring 2008.  Even though Brimstone previously made a similar claim, I'm staying skeptical (but hopeful) until I have the book in my hands. 

My LatD army is a "counts-as", so I'm mostly just interested in a ruleset I can use for tourneys and such.  But if they're actually resurrecting proper daemonworld armies...well, that's kinda intriguing.  

I heard some strong rumours that there will be daemonid legions lists as well as daemon world lists with the release of plastic daemon models next may.

I am skeptical too, but considering the sources, as well as confirmation from other highly regarded sources such as brimstone, I am thinking it quite possible.

But as to daemonic legion and daemon world lists, I havent the slightest idea how those will be released. Perhaps part of a LATD codex or maybe a white dwarf artcle similar to BA?

*shrug*

Worst case scenario: they're released as part of a summer campaign book, which will not be tournament-valid or supported after the summer is over.

Personally from the GEQ point of view I am loving what I am hearing. From the posts I have been reading it sounds like chaos is going to get a major bump against meq's, while staying the same or getting a slight decrease vs GEQ armies. Sounds very good to me. Adds a bit more to the rock paper sissors aspect of the game. We have rock that is marines and varients, GEQs that are sissors, and now chaos playing the part of paper. I like it. Much more refreshing than the current world of just rock and sissors.

Really disappointed with the the apparent sterility of some of the codex. Just one kind of daemon weapon seems a bit sucky although i can see they're attempting to tone down herohammer but its a shame this is the result.

The marks sound refreshingly different. Just because you worship khorne doesn't make you a psycotic world eater.

TS look the knee jerk power gaming army, though until you see the other options they can take, they could still be naff.

Doom Siren and Blast Master are supposed to be AP 3 also.

The Thousand Son squad o doom is supposed to weigh in ~300 points too.

It just sounds so... dull.

Generic this, and standard that. So utterly boring. Chaos is all about being Chaotic. These rumours are anything but.

BYE

I like the sound of it.

Despite the surfeit of options very few see play. When was the last time you saw a needle of desire coming in play? What demon prince came with talons? Variety in the book didn't translate into variety on the table top - it simply meant the options weren't internally balanced.

Cult marines having distinct identities (as opposed to simply being marked) is much better. Not everyone devoted to Slaanesh should be a noise marine. None of the cults ever hit the serious table, so a boost to them can only be good. I'm quite looking forward to trying out a chaos warband under the new rules.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/16/2007 2:17 PM
It just sounds so... dull.

Generic this, and standard that. So utterly boring. Chaos is all about being Chaotic. These rumours are anything but.

BYE

I completely agree. Cutting back the option for commanders/units/squads turns everything into everything else; just painted different. Brutally slowed.  Might as well play Necrons.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/16/2007 2:17 PM
It just sounds so... dull.

Generic this, and standard that. So utterly boring. Chaos is all about being Chaotic. These rumours are anything but.

BYE

They should have a rule where for every squad marked with Khorne, you get to roll a d6.  On a 4+, one member joins a special Khorne warband.  You will spawn d3+3 members of this Khorne warband if your general has a mark.  This khorne warband will not count for victory points  and it'll have all sorts of special rules.  They will also wear nothing but codpieces which give them a 3+ armor save.  I think this new idea will work, is fluffy, nobody will complain about cheese, and most importantly is chaotic.

I think thats why Conan lived so long. He had a power armored codpiece. It did protect his most important bits...

Posted By torgoch on 05/16/2007 3:01 PM
Despite the surfeit of options very few see play. When was the last time you saw a needle of desire coming in play? What demon prince came with talons? Variety in the book didn't translate into variety on the table top - it simply meant the options weren't internally balanced.

So the solution is simply to do away with the choices and make everything generic?

Wouldn't a better solution be to balance the options against one another so that all of them are useful. Yes, that would require reducing the amount of options (things like Fire & Venom can be removed as they're never taken anyway).

But there's no reason to see 11 different Daemon Weapons, see that no one is taking, say, 7 of them, ever, so you then go and remove all of them and create a generic rule to replace it. Why not remove some of the ones that are never taken and fix the ones that you particularly like.

This wouldn't be easy - one thing our group learnt the hard way from our 40K Revisited Project is that writing Codices from scratch and playtesting them takes hours and work and effort to get even close to being write - but it's far better than GW's 'cut & run' approach, where they just forget about what's come before, genericize (SP??) everything, and pass it off as 'balance'.

BYE

HBMC: I think you made up that word. No need to worry about spelling there

I think I did... but 'generalise' everything just didn't sound right. Genericize sounded better.

BYE

This is preposterous! 1k Sons loosing a wound AND STILL being SAP? What is GW thinking? Having to take a Psychic Test to cast our powers now? I never saw a SM Lascannon be unable to fire due to some over powered piece of equipment. like our BoC is affected by the Hood. What is going on with GW!!??

So this means no more 2 wound Termies then as well?

Genericize is in Wikipedia, so it must be real!