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Codex will be out at Games Day. It all sound good to me. keep changing the codex. Serves all the people right who complained about imbalance. Now we can have some more for them to complain about. Frigging whiny people who hardly play anyway. Dont like it stop threatining to quit playing and actually do it.

Ps this rant was not directed at anybody specific, well ok it was you people know who you are.

I think people are over-reacting to the AP3 bolter rumour.

Sure AP3 is nasty, but they are still bolters. 3s to hit and 4s to wound will do a bit of damage, but when you consider it's 300pts for a squad of ten, are they really that more frightening than say 18 marines and two plasma cannons? Or forty odd Guardsmen with heavy weapons? Hell, thirty Firewarriors cost the same as them and they'll shred the Thousand Sons (not including psychic powers). They can do the same amount of damage to each other, only the Firewarriors have three times the wounds that the Thousand Sons have. I don't see people running to the hills when someone takes a 72 Firewarrior gun line (unless you're IG).

Yes they will be a unit to watch out for, and yes they do look a little nasty. But I would hardly call these guys the new Harliquins just yet.

This is another example of really bad game design if it's true. Against MEQs the Thousand Sons are worth their points. Against Orks, they're gonna get overwhelmed and eaten, 4+ invunerable save or no.
Grey Knights will also have a field day with them, though the potential damage done by the AP3 bolters is pretty big their.
They are a gimmick army.

Codex will be out at Games Day. It all sound good to me. keep changing the codex. Serves all the people right who complained about imbalance. Now we can have some more for them to complain about. Frigging whiny people who hardly play anyway. Dont like it stop threatining to quit playing and actually do it.  (Qoute from Beef)

Good advice. I already sold my Nightlords and soon as I saw the first rumors and used the proceeds to buy Hordes and a Skorne army and haven't looked back. I have a Tyranid monstrous creature army also if anyone is interested e-mail me. I will still keep my other two armies. Once they do a codex marine redux then my marines will probably go also. I will always keep my GK's tho because I painted them for my son and they have sentimental value because they have won me a best paint and a few tourny's. BA I may actually keep with also after I play test thier new list.

Posted By Da Boss on 05/18/2007 7:07 AM
They are a gimmick army.

They're a gimmick unit. Much like Vespids or Sisters Repentia.

I don't really think people are expected to field armies consisting solely of Thousand Sons, any more than they're expected to field armies of nothing but Fire Dragons or nothing but Burna Boyz.

They're a specialized units that performs a role within the whole of a larger Chaos army. Mounted in a Rhino they could be a quite effective unit of MEQ killers. In a 1500 point game, you still have about 1150 to spend on tanks, regular CSM and other units.

I don't think one specialized troop type really comprises an army by itself.

Nope. Not any more. Getting off this ride. Best thing to make GW games better is as someone said, going to play warmachine....

Posted By Da Boss on 05/18/2007 7:07 AM
This is another example of really bad game design if it's true. Against MEQs the Thousand Sons are worth their points. Against Orks, they're gonna get overwhelmed and eaten, 4+ invunerable save or no.
Grey Knights will also have a field day with them, though the potential damage done by the AP3 bolters is pretty big their.
They are a gimmick army.

This is amazing truthful, and disheartening.  It shows that the 40K designers just can't "do the right thing" with this idea.  The thought of going back to 2nd edition with modifiers isn't so bad.  -1 or -2 to armor saves isn't such a complicated rule that 14 year olds can't handle it, and it solves Choppas and would make these new 1000sons less pigeon-holed.

And heck, it works in fantasy.  Even American teenagers can handle 2nd grade math skills.
.

You havent seen teenages lately, have you?

*shakes head*

I just wish there was another game I liked.

But back to the rumors part of this besides +1 I and sonic weapons any other rumors for E.C. God I love the amount of fire you can let loose from that army and going first in combat has always been a +.
Doom sirens AP3 now, that?s gonna make me want to take more of them?Too bad I gotta get rid of my Lightning claw Sgt with a doom Siren?.Aggggghhhhhh!!!

I just hope that theres more flavor than the D.A. codex that was soooo bland?and I hope there is some form of chapter variation for the Space marines Dex gonna suck if were all the same?
But most of all?.MOST OF ALLLLLL!!!! I hope my Sgts can keep their LIGHTNING CLAWS

ugghmmm as I was saying any other rumors for E.C.?

Brilliant! "I'm going to sell off my army based upon these RUMORS! I won't wait to see what the codex actually looks like and I refuse to change my tactics so I'll sell of my army based upon RUMORS."

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yeah, sorry, I was assuming cult lists would still be possible (ie. take Ahriman and be able to field thousand sons as troops or something) and was talking about the Thousand Sons army, not the marines with the mark of Tzeentch unit.
Should have been clearer.

It's a lot like stock. Rumors fly and everyone sells based on the rumors and make some of thier money back before the rumors prove to be true. Thus I sell my army because I want to get some value out of my old chaos marines before the new codex makes them obsolete. Especially with Nightlords probably losing stealth adept and all those Iron Warrior basilisk ect no longer being valid. Sell and get some value versus no value. The rumors often on Dakka usually prove in the end to be mostly valid in my experience as a fellow Dakkaite. I am personally disheartened when you read of a share holder of a company selling a large amount of stock prior to it falling. Especially since I have been very loyal for a great number of years supporting said company and to see these type of shannanigans happening. I will hold on to some armies I currently have in the hopes a turn around happens some time soon and even tho' I have harped on old Jervis maybe he and others at GW can be a catalyst for change. My status has gone from Atta'boy to part time fan.

Posted By Da Boss on 05/18/2007 9:18 AM
Yeah, sorry, I was assuming cult lists would still be possible (ie. take Ahriman and be able to field thousand sons as troops or something) and was talking about the Thousand Sons army, not the marines with the mark of Tzeentch unit.
Should have been clearer.

I suspect it'll still be possible to field a 'cult list'.

Cult Armies aren't really a 'core army'. Chaos Space Marines are the core army. GW isn't concerned about Cult Armies since they occupy the same space as Kroot Mercenaries, 'Pure' Grey Knights, and Genestealer Cults.

That is, players can still field them if they want, but there's no guarantees that such a one-dimensional force is effective.

So, it may be possible to field an army of exclusively Thousand Sons, but they're mainly intended as a supplementary option in the wider Chaos Space Marine line.

This also means that GW will have a larger market. Instead of only selling Berzerkers to World Eaters players, Thousand Sons to TS players, etc., every Chaos player will want to own a couple units of each cult unit to swap out based on their opponent or for variety.

Posted By Lemartes on 05/18/2007 9:51 AM
 I am personally disheartened when you read of a president of a company selling a large amount of stock prior to it falling. Especially since I have been very loyal for a great number of years supporting said company and to see these type of shannanigans happening. I will hold on to some armies I currently have in the hopes a turn around happens some time soon and even tho' I have harped on old Jervis maybe he and others at GW can be a catalyst for change. My status has gone from Atta'boy to part time fan.

Tom Kirby sold stock? Source please.

A director sold stock prior to the fall. There's currently zero evidence that Tom Kirby engaged in any improper transactions.

Agree with Lemartes. However, since I don't have a chaos army, I'm just going to sell the current (ok 3rd not 4th printing, but a sucker might not even know!) codex and some models before they get nerfed. I just hope I know what to do when it comes time to reprint the Bret codex, since I field an awful lot of Pegasi.

Humble apologies to Kirby I should have said Alan Stewart sold his prior to a quarterly report. Thanks for the check Asmodai. Disregard prior statement on said GW president and my apologies to him personally for false information.   Edited my original post for accuracy so as not to mislead or slander as that was not my intent on my original point/take.

"Asmodai: Cult Armies aren't really a 'core army'. Chaos Space Marines are the core army. GW isn't concerned about Cult Armies since they occupy the same space as Kroot Mercenaries, 'Pure' Grey Knights, and Genestealer Cults."

Are you Nutz? They ARE the counter part armies to the BA, DA, SW, UM. you compare Death Guard or World Eater armies to Kroot.

...those cult armies are the back bone of chaos fluff since the very begining and you compare them to kroot...Damn

the cult armies are main stays, that comment was silly. Havok squads tac squads- I don't see a problem with any cult army winning any game.

No heritage left...

I see a lot of, "My armies going to be (rightly) nerfed! I'm selling it and buying some Falcons and Nidzillas!" People complained that TkSons sucked the most and now that they are being beefed up by AP3 Bolters, people are still complaining.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The Cult armies are still there, they are just not "sub-lists" like they were in 3rd ed. I think that was his point. GW has said they are getting rid of "sub-lists." And thank-goodness cause they were ALWAYS over or under powered.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Fantastic.  Thousand Sons players can't get screwed if there's no such thing as Thousand Sons armies anymore!  Brilliant!

This is precisely what I expected to happen.  Rather than being armies in their own right, cult legions are being reduced to "aspect warriors" of Chaos.  I'd be surprised if we will even have cult terminators anymore.  Thanks Jervis!

So the Thousand Sons army is no more because it is a "sub-list" yet the Dark Angels get their own codex because, uh... wait, how exactly again are Dark Angels different from green Ultramarines with white terminators and black bikes?  Oh yeah, they have Deathwing Assault.  It's a good thing they gave them an entire codex to elaborate on this very important difference.

Well, once there was this black-and-white spacemarine on a black-and-white bike....

So its not that you feel Chaos should have multiple codices, but that DA shouldn't have one. Lets be clear.

Do DA 'have' to have a codex? No. Why do they then have one? Because since there have been codices, there has been a DA codex (admittedly shared its first time w/ BA). Now if GW decides that an established army (with its own codex) should no longer have its own book, there will be just as many cries of GW dumping an army. Once again its a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

EDIT: And I still haven't heard someone explain how a TkSons list is any different than only taking TkSons Troops or Tzeentch marked troops in a normal C:CSM list?!  Do I really need a sub-list for something I can do with the main codex??

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 05/18/2007 4:19 PM
EDIT: And I still haven't heard someone explain how a TkSons list is any different than only taking TkSons Troops or Tzeentch marked troops in a normal C:CSM list?!  Do I really need a sub-list for something I can do with the main codex??

That's a bit of a circular argument.  The reason why you can make a TS with the main codex is because GW have designed them that way.  There's easily enough potential background material on Tzeentch (or any of the other 3 gods for that matter) to fill an entire codex with unique units and rules if GW was so inclined.  And there would be real differences too - none of this Deathwing Assault nonsense.  GW chooses not to expand on the Chaos factions; in fact they are doing precisely the opposite.  So instead we get daemons with generic statlines.

From a background perspective Chaos has always had more potential for multiple army lists than loyalists.  Should Ultramarines have less in common with Blood Angels than Nurgle has with Slaanesh?  Should Dark Angels have more unique psychic powers than Tzeentch?  Hell, should Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Ultramarines (all nominally codex-adherent chapters) have more differences among them than THE ENTIRE IMPERIAL GUARD?

It's just really galling that they're vanilla-fying everybody else while at the same time inventing differences for marine chapters out of whole cloth.  Aside from a few slight differences Dark Angels and Blood Angels are supposed to be codex adherent chapters ferchrissakes!  Sorry, Thousand Sons don't get special rules for their rubric terminators anymore because they are not a stand-alone army - but you can still use your existing models as vanilla terminators with the Mark of Tzeentch!  On the other hand we will make up special rules for Dark Angels terminators because they paint their armor white.  And stuff.

And yes, I know there are $$$ reasons for doing this.  GW is a business and their job is to make money blahblahblah.  I understand this.  I don't expect them not to release a marine codex for every color of the rainbow while relegating everyone else to Codex: Not Marines.  But that doesn't mean it doesn't make the game more slowed.

But yet again you are jumping to conclusions abadaba. Most of the designers have stated an indication that they would like to add cult army list books later. Now whether or not they do and or can is a different matter. A lot of factors in that one. But they have said they would like to do so. This new Chaos dex they are releasing is a generic list to make the basic renegades that most Imperial forces would run into out there. It kills two or more birds with one stone. It allows them to balance out the list, establish the themes for the powers and get new models out the door. Most Thousand son and Death Guard players I have spoken with in this area are excited. The old dex really gave them a limited hand to deal with in games.

We have to wait and see what the future holds. This is the first step and it's a long road. Balanced and playable forces are what is going to do this. I will be the first to admit that most marine chapters including DA could be included in the main dex. The fact is that they are out there, and really, the game IS about Space Marines. All you have to do is look at the main ruleset to get that. DA in whatever good or bad form it was released in was the first step in changing and balancing the game. They were a template for things to come. The DA plastics have been slated for quite some time, and the DA book was next in the production schedule. It is pretty easy to see what is going on back there if you just look. It's not all a conspiracy, it's just a company of gamers just doing business.

What I see so far in the chaos dex is a relatively interesting, more balanced product coming out that will make a ton of different lists, and most troops being useful, not just a few different builds. We will have to wait and see on that, but it is my first opinion of what I see.

Daemon weapons scare me though... gah!.

Posted By Toreador on 05/18/2007 7:46 PM
What I see so far in the chaos dex is a relatively interesting, more balanced product coming out that will make a ton of different lists, and most troops being useful, not just a few different builds. We will have to wait and see on that, but it is my first opinion of what I see.

Daemon weapons scare me though... gah!.

How can you say 'a ton of different lists'. You have read the Dark Angel and to a lesser extend the Eldar Codex, right?

These two Codices have removed virtually all the customisation from previous Codices, and now only a few builds exist. They've just streamlined what works and what doesn't so that all power gamer armies will look the same. Does it create balance? In a lot of ways yes, but it also makes everything very dull.

When you make everything generic in a wargame like this, things get worse.

Oh, and the Daemon Weapon rules scare me as well, but for completely different reasons.

BYE

Yep, and I have 3 main lists I use with DA right now.
A combined arms list with RW, DW and marines.
A mech list with some RW and lots of vehicles.
A mostly RW list.

All three I have a great time with and keep changing them up. The new rules really lend to tweaking as taking something is giving up something else.

Eldar I play more lists.
An all foot aspect list.
A mostly foot guardian based list with no aspects.
A combined arms mech list with some foot,
and an almost all vehicle skimmer list.

DA doesn't seem to have a "perfect" build. (and most will say that is because they suck, which I disagree with)

Eldar have the more "competitive" mech list, which is the fault of the falcons with all options.
That doesn't mean that the eldar list doesn't have a bunch of other competitive builds. That one is just the near "perfect" points denial build that has a hand up on all others.

If in some way Falcons were toned down, you would see alot of other lists, and in fact I see people toying around with all kinds of builds in friendly games.

Posted By Toreador on 05/18/2007 7:46 PM
But yet again you are jumping to conclusions abadaba. Most of the designers have stated an indication that they would like to add cult army list books later. Now whether or not they do and or can is a different matter.

Unfortunately what the designers would like to do and what they are allowed to do are two completely different things.  GW corporate decides which armies get attention and when:

Contrary to popular belief, the developers don’t decide what’s being released next – it’s decided according to the needs of the business, the systems and the resources available.

- Andy Hoare

I don't think Thousand Sons have been flying off the shelves (surprise surprise) so I really don't see management deciding to dedicate a quarter of a codex to them.  If they release a cult army list book later I will eat my hat.

The fact is they are taking 4 different armies that have been around since the Realm of Chaos books and reducing them to 4 unit entries.  All indications suggest we're going back to the bad old days of 3rd ed Codex: Chaos Mk1.  Maybe GW will prove me wrong - but I'm not holding my breath.

Speaking (as ever) as an ork player who started a Death gaurd army because he thought using plastic zombies with chaos space marines would be cool, I'm disgusted by the 5 marine codices and would be even more disgusted if the cults got their own books. The game needs a good bit less space marine. That would make fully half the lists space marine lists. Does this not seem completely insane to anyone else?

Posted By Da Boss on 05/18/2007 11:09 PM
Speaking (as ever) as an ork player who started a Death gaurd army because he thought using plastic zombies with chaos space marines would be cool, I'm disgusted by the 5 marine codices and would be even more disgusted if the cults got their own books. The game needs a good bit less space marine. That would make fully half the lists space marine lists. Does this not seem completely insane to anyone else?

There's no reason why cult army lists (or undivided for that matter) necessarily have to be space marine lists.  GW could always include cultists, mutants, traitors, beastmen, thralls, zombies, etc, but they choose not to.  Maybe if they didn't try to cram all the Chaos powers into a one-size-fits-all list they would have room to expand on these non-MEq elements.

Oh, so it's full of Lost and the Damned-style rebelling Guardsmen? I must have missed that part somewhere....