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Daemonic Legion, please. Of course, given that it's not legal in Fantasy any more, I'm not going to self-asphyxiate in the meantime....

GW make a lot of marines because that's what the fans want like it or not. You want to know an easy way to get higher scores on cmon or more views and replies in a thread? Paint and convert marines. People can't get enough of them, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the first founding legions got their own codex or four. And they would if chaos was as popular as loyalist marines.

I think marines are only so popular because they get pushed waaaaaay harder than any other force, and GW keeps constantly releasing stuff for them, so your post is sort of cyclical to my mind. Fans like marines because they are the spoilt children of the 40K universe, so they stay spoilt, and anytime someone suggests that things could be different, someone like yourself jumps in to make that argument or the "marines make money!" argument.

Marines do get pushed way harder. They're in every starter box and pushed by staff as the best 1st army.

Given the expense of the game though, most players only ever collect one army. Only the hardcore have 2 or more. Most players keep playing their first army - Marines.

GW really needs to go for a year or two without any Marine releases of any sort and to replace the Marines in BfM with Guard or Eldar and teach their retail staff to present a couple different armies to new players and then let the player choose what appeals.

It is cyclical. People love marines. Almost everyone has at least one marine army, or has had. They sell well, and therefore they make more for them, which makes them sell more,... etc. etc.

Renegades as in Chaos marines. It's pretty much the basic starting point for making a chaos marine force that covers most everything.

I would love to see a LaTD force more than I would like to see a cult list book. With the two you could cover most any renegade force.

I do feel for some of those with specific chapters that won't be covered in the new book (not IW, I won't feel sorry at all there), but if the BA dex is any indication, the WD may be a path for them to do such lists. In my opinion that would be a better route to do any variation such as DA and BA. Make a main list, then come out with variant lists in the WD.

Posted By Toreador on 05/19/2007 8:58 AM

I do feel for some of those with specific chapters that won't be covered in the new book (not IW, I won't feel sorry at all there)

Why not? They have one of the more interesting backstories in the 40K universe. Their colour scheme is fairly attractive too.

I dunno. It seems stupid for them to get the shaft because in their backstory the Emperor is portrayed as a bit of a jerk or something. The idea of a siege army is pretty cool - Vindicators, some shooting troops and an assault element to storm the barricades. They also fit great into a lot of the more interesting mission variants in the 40K book too. They're a very characterful force on either side of the Bunker Assault mission for example.

Sure there were some cheesy players, but not really any more so than other armies. It's stupid to wish ill on the 99.9999999% of IW players that fielded it because it was a cool-looking army with interesting fluff because the 0.0000001% of players that tried to abuse the list.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/19/2007 9:09 AM

Posted By Toreador on 05/19/2007 8:58 AM

I do feel for some of those with specific chapters that won't be covered in the new book (not IW, I won't feel sorry at all there)

Why not? They have one of the more interesting backstories in the 40K universe. Their colour scheme is fairly attractive too.

I dunno. It seems stupid for them to get the shaft because in their backstory the Emperor is portrayed as a bit of a jerk or something. The idea of a siege army is pretty cool - Vindicators, some shooting troops and an assault element to storm the barricades. They also fit great into a lot of the more interesting mission variants in the 40K book too. They're a very characterful force on either side of the Bunker Assault mission for example.

Sure they were all cheesy players, more so than other armies. It's stupid to wish ill on the 0.0000001% of IW players that fielded it because it was a cool-looking army with interesting fluff because the 99.9999999% of players that tried to abuse the list.

Last sentence edited for accuracy.

I think that (I'm gonna get hammered on this Ouch!) undivided Marines are going to go back to what they should be….the Vanilla marines of Chaos. Here come the Iron warrior fans and the Nightlord fans and the…what word bearers. So cover won’t mean as much or you can’t take an extra heavy, or …extra demons(the word bearers are a joke) they’ll have a more Markable nilla dex. Oblitz w/ mark of nurgle, raptors w/ mark of Khorne or slaanesh. Ok so (trust me I’m trying to convince myself too) Ok so if D.A. are the “tougher” than normal or better, the prime example of tactical marines…look at what Chaos can take. I bet raptors still Hit and Run, oblitz still morph guns, and plague marines can walk up the field taking fire like no other. The thousand sons finally get the props they deserve and become truly the magic army that was asked for(and people complain).
If the D.A. codex is the new standard…Chaos has no worries on the field…once things are on a level playing field that is, if that makes sense.

So are they going to redo nids too before getting off their arses and doing some of the neglected codices?
To balance the playing field like.

I've heard Raptors are losing Hit and Run...They're just going to be chaos assault marines.

Wow that's a good idea.
*FURY*
Why don't they just combine the two into one book if they're gonna make them so similar?
Screw it, just change the name of the game to Space Marines in the 41st Millenium and get it over and done with.

The thing I dread is the next codex after this one coming up in september takes away the raptors, oblits, ect. from the marked chaos armies because all of a sudden people will complain it makes Nurgle or the other three too powerful. Then there a lot players are that invested in those units, unable to use them unless they invest extra money to make a vanilla chaos army even though they only wanted to play a power specific force.

I feel vindicated in buying only enough mega armored Orks to convert into 6 far less expensive money wise oblits and not going to town on the heavy selections for my Iron Warriors army. I'm not going to have to change a thing for the new codex and am not out any bucks for stuff I won't be able to use.

I sometimes think GW ought to come out with a new game involving the player trying to out think the rules writers and the person that spends the least amount of money on units that get nerfed/eliminated wins.

Posted By 5deadly on 05/19/2007 10:40 AM
The thousand sons finally get the props they deserve and become truly the magic army that was asked for(and people complain).

That would be a very good point, if it were true.  Sadly, rumor has it Thousand Sons get only 1 Tzeentch-specific psychic power (Bolt of Change, which may or may not remain an over-priced under-strength short-range lascannon), have to take psychic tests (so they're affected Runes of Warding), and still have their powers negated left and right by the ubiquitous psychic hood.  Wow.  What a truly magic army.

Posted By Relapse on 05/19/2007 11:45 AM
The thing I dread is the next codex after this one coming up in september takes away the raptors, oblits, ect. from the marked chaos armies because all of a sudden people will complain it makes Nurgle or the other three too powerful. Then there a lot players are that invested in those units, unable to use them unless they invest extra money to make a vanilla chaos army even though they only wanted to play a power specific force.

But that's the name of the game.  The whole point of releasing a new codex is to get people to buy new models.  What better way to accomplish this than by invalidating everone's old models?  Anyone in the hobby for any appreciable length of time should know by now that this is standard operating procedure.

Posted By Relapse on 05/19/2007 11:45 AM
I sometimes think GW ought to come out with a new game involving the player trying to out think the rules writers and the person that spends the least amount of money on units that get nerfed/eliminated wins.

They already have a game like that.  It's called "Warhammer 40,000".

Posted By Relapse on 05/19/2007 11:45 AM
I sometimes think GW ought to come out with a new game involving the player trying to out think the rules writers and the person that spends the least amount of money on units that get nerfed/eliminated wins.

  Hmmm...  this is a potentially interesting idea.  Metahammer 40,000, simulating the changing metagame.  Let's see...  what would we need rules for...

Comp scores
Codex creep/nerfing
Ratio of painted to unpainted models
Good FAQ / Bad FAQ
Time since last Codex update
Change of edition
Drop of support for entire armies
Netlists
etc.

Buffing of understrength units
Buffing of units with new models
Nerfing of overpowered units
Dropping existing units

Andof course, the Space Marine Escalation Rule: The number of space marine lists will increase as a function of n. Figure out what n is and how to capitalise and you win!

Iron Warriors are still Iron warriors. Siege it up all you want. I don't think as many people will take them now that they won't be instant game winners. You will know the true IW players by the ones that still keep the army when it isn't such a cheese fest.

GW pushing marines the most isn't the cause of the popularity of marines. B follows A here. People like marines. Starship Troopers, Aliens, and Starcraft all have huge fanbases and they aren't related to GW at all. People love big tough armored killing machines that also happen to be fighting for 'their' (humanity) side. Just because you may not personally like marines doesn't discount that other people love them to death.

If it worked the way you said, then all GW would have to do to increase sales of their other lines is push them hard for a year or two. But we don't see that.

I really don't think people like something simply because they are told that they like it once they grow older than 5 or 6.

If Black Templars can get their own codex why not Iron Warriors?  I'm sure it would sell.  They're the most popular Chaos legion, right?  I'd certainly expect to see a Codex: Iron Warriors before a Codex: Lost and the Damned.

Posted By Toreador on 05/19/2007 4:41 PM
Iron Warriors are still Iron warriors. Siege it up all you want. I don't think as many people will take them now that they won't be instant game winners. You will know the true IW players by the ones that still keep the army when it isn't such a cheese fest.

Quoted for truth.  IW armies will go back to being non existant if they lose all the special stuff they get now.  I have in tournies seen a drop in IW now that the space pirates in spandex have had the new codex.  Last tournie I went to there were no IW armies but lots of Eldar ones.  Eldar need to be Nerfed as they are the new NO brainer armies. 

People always claim marine armies are no brainers, maybe but they sure as hell aint game winners as all the top armies now tend to be ELDAR<

Your youthful sarcasm…bores me. Thousand sons are prime. Hellfire rounds for all (as it should be) so what do you want all the powers, all the heavy support. close combat maniac jumppack all wizard 1000 sons. At 12 pts a model…

Iron warriors aren’t going to be the cheese all heavy army they where…they don’t deserve it. Why? Because there YOUR Favorite Flavor of cheese?

Iron warriors do not deserves a full book of there own. They are undivided that’s all. What so great that they deserve a book…another in a long line of silly comments.

Who exactlu are you replying to?? It would help if you mentioned that in the beggining .

also if the .99999999?. or what ever of I.W. players(so untrue), isn't cheesy then they'll have no issue running the Iron Warriors as plain old undivided marines?right? Because their not concerned with having an extra heavy support choice or running Cheese. They can make it without special rules right?

Man there is no pleasing a G.W. fan is there?I understand and have been through this for every release since second edition. But god D@#^ 1000 sons are weak?.next codex tune up: 1000 son too strong?why can?t I have my super heavy all oblitz-heavy tank servo arm I.W. army?because you can?t now you have to play as evil vanilla?guess what?I feel no pity for a cheesy player who cries when his ultra cheese army gets the much needed ax. Silver with caution stripes is a cool paint scheme?...ok?

Beside Iron warriors and night lords name another chapter that gonna be really affected alpha legion, oh wait the EVER popular word bearers. Look having special rules for chaos vanilla marines is a waste. Save that stuff for the true cult legions and let the Iron warrior Players figure out how to win with one less tank?

ITS 99% of IW armies that are cheesy. But no doubt if they get nerfed they will still play IW cos they love the fluff so much. #NOT. they will now play ELDAR

Yeah. Who needs IW tanks when Eldar tanks are virtually unkillable...

And the sad irony in all of this is when all the b!tching about Iron Warriors is said and done, and Iron Warriors cease to have rules and just become Silver Chaos Marines w/Hazard Stripes, everyone will forget that the Iron Warriors were one of the few armies in 40K that were powerful when the player stuck to the fluff of the army.

Very few armies in 40K have a congruent fluff to power ratio. Most get worse the more fluffy you get. Iron Warriors broke that mould... yet are the most despised army in the game because they get a few more Oblits and a Basilisk.

So very, very sad.

BYE

I don't despise I.W. I'm just playing devils advocate.

When D.A. codex is used as a prime example of the next generation of codex then it's pretty easy to see that there is No room for fancy special rules...I look at it like this; If I have to Choose between seeing a 5 army codex or this 8 army codex, I think that 5 armies is much more simple.

Bet the farm the undivided will have more options than any other power armor army. You got 5 armies here folks D.G., W.E., E.C., T.S. and undivided (the rest), on the good side D.A., B.A., S.W., B.T., and Nilla (the rest)

There?s no reason for Raven Guard, Salamanders, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Luna Wolves, Word Bearers or Alpha Legion to have a solo codex...any one can say "oh this or that (usually My) army needs a dex.? I LOVE Space Marines. They were My First army back in what 90?? I've had 7 different Marine armies since (my own fluff for 5 of em') and I'm workin on my 8th.
If you guys wanna see other dexs done then there needs to be a cut line.

Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tau, Tyranids, Guard, Sisters, the Inquisitorial forces getting done vs. a codex for:

Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Dark Angels, White Scars, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Salamanders and (damn that?s a lot) Raven Guard. Not to mention the other 1000 chapters

As far as rules go, no game is ever 100% balanced or you have to play the same forces against each other?(kinda like what?s happening now scary)
I honestly think things will be fine the more I hear and see.

I bet the difference between Undivided and cult army will be selection. You will be able to mark the whole thing up mix n? match cults with no hatred rules or sacred numbers, but they will only get 1 benefit +1T or +1I. Not the same status as a Death Guard marine with +1T, FnP and true grit (or what ever). But the selection will be restricted for each army. I.E. No world eaters with Oblitz or No raptors for Death Guard. That?s my bet and that?s. Undivided and 4 other True cult armies?man that?s enough for me

So any hints on what the Emperor's Children are gonna get (The Kings kidz are Twisted Playboi!)

Retorts?

I dont hate IW armies just got tired of seeing so many at tournies, Now its the Eldars turn as thats all I see on the top tables.

I think the eldar are poppin because they shiny Bro, of course the this or that that makes them a strong army but...
I would have a eldar army if G.W. met these demands
3 Plastic aspect kits, Plastic Autarch, Plastic warlocks. The wraith lord and walkers are nice but not enough to make me by another all metal army...never again.

So back to the chaos dex...anyone got cool positive input like "I'm gonna run?"

I'm gonna hang on and see what the codex actually has in it.
Though I'll happily run my converted plague marines as normal chaos marines if that's what it entails. While fuming that another power armoured army is being done before orks. And I think 10 marine armies is 8 too many. Especially when you consider Jervis's comment that they want to stick to the core 15 armies. So, 10 marine armies, Eldar, Gaurd, Orks, Nids and Tau then?
Or 10 Marine armies, Gaurd, Necrons, Inquisitorial forces, Eldar and Tau?
10 Marine armies sucks donkey bollocks whatever way I look at it.