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I'll start, I think I'm gonna run pure Noise marine. 2 troops of CC slaanesh with as many doom sirens as i can take, 2 troops with sonic, plasma n blastmasters, 2 Havoks w blastmasters and plasma respectivly, 1 terminator gun unit, 2 cc vet units, at least at it's core

Posted By Da Boss on 05/20/2007 9:50 AM
 And I think 10 marine armies is 8 too many. Especially when you consider Jervis's comment that they want to stick to the core 15 armies. So, 10 marine armies, Eldar, Gaurd, Orks, Nids and Tau then?
Or 10 Marine armies, Gaurd, Necrons, Inquisitorial forces, Eldar and Tau?
10 Marine armies sucks donkey bollocks whatever way I look at it.

  Er, which 10?

1. Space Marines

2. Black Templars

3. Dark Angels

4. Blood Angels

5. Space Wolves

6. Chaos

  I've run out of marines.  Do you mean the Cult armies comprise that last four? Will they even BE marines lists per se, any more than Daemonhunters are a marines list?

Yup I mean the cults as the last four, based on the rumour that they might do that. I hope they don't, which is what my post was about. And yes, they'll be marine armies.
I mean, they're still space marines. And Daemon Hunters is sort of a space marine list, except slowed.

Posted By 5deadly on 05/20/2007 1:57 AM
Your youthful sarcasm…bores me. Thousand sons are prime. Hellfire rounds for all (as it should be) so what do you want all the powers, all the heavy support. close combat maniac jumppack all wizard 1000 sons. At 12 pts a model…

Your youthful hyperbole... bores me.  There are basically 2 things that define the character of the Thousand Sons (and hellfire rounds is not one of them).  Thousand Sons are all about 1) animated empty suits of armor and 2) the best sorcerers in the galaxy.  The rubric marines are well represented in the current rules (except the pts costs are a bit off), but the sorcerers are scrubs.  Bolt of Change and Twisting Path are a bit underwhelming for what should be some of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy.  And it sounds like their psychic powers are being scaled back even further in the new rules.

What would you say if grots were 50 pts per model and came with terminator stats?  It's not like they would be overpowered or anything, but that's not the point.  It is just not fluffy for a grot to be more powerful than a space marine.  Likewise, it is not fluffy for a space marine librarian to be more powerful than a Thousand Sons sorcerer.  But with their (ridiculously effective) psychic hoods and better selection of powers, the librarian beats the sorcerer hands down.  Sorcerers should be very powerful - of course they should pay for this power in pts, but they should be more than just glorified special weapons troopers whose guns get negated by a Ld dice-off.

Definitely agree with you there. But I'd hope they will make the sorcerors better. Psychic hoods seem a bit ridiculous to me.

Posted By 5deadly on 05/20/2007 9:15 AM
Bet the farm the undivided will have more options than any other power armor army. You got 5 armies here folks D.G., W.E., E.C., T.S. and undivided (the rest), on the good side D.A., B.A., S.W., B.T., and Nilla (the rest)

Except that's not what's happening.  You are not getting 5 armies in the new Chaos codex any more than Dark Angels got 3 armies in their codex.  You are getting ONE army.  DG, WE, EC, and TS are no longer ARMIES - they are UNITS.  They are becoming the Chaos equivalent of aspect warriors.

"What army do you play?"
"Dire Avengers."

Posted By 5deadly on 05/20/2007 11:36 AM
I'll start, I think I'm gonna run pure Noise marine. 2 troops of CC slaanesh with as many doom sirens as i can take, 2 troops with sonic, plasma n blastmasters, 2 Havoks w blastmasters and plasma respectivly, 1 terminator gun unit, 2 cc vet units, at least at it's core

Can you do that?  I don't think havoks will be able to take blastmasters anymore.  It sounds like the only unit that will be able to take sonic weapons are noise marine squads.  No word on whether they will be a Troops or Elites choice.  Your Troops choices will only be possible if 1) noise marines are indeed available as Troops, and 2) they have the option to take weapons other than sonic weapons.  Who knows - maybe they'll all have to take sonic blasters as standard and only have blastmasters and doom sirens as upgrade options.

Abababoon, dude why are you goin’ off ½ cocked at me Pimpy? I didn’t call anybody out I wasn’t even really readin’ your posts. But to quote Toreador “But yet again you are jumping to conclusions abadaba.” I agree with Toreadoron a few things. No biggie Holmes I Jump the gun too sometimes, really it’s cool…

As far as Havoks w blastmasters: Can you do that?

Cult marines (these are the ONLY cult marines)
Berzerkers: +1Ws, Furious charge, +1 attack, lost blood frenzy.
Slaanesh: +1I, sonic weapons, Ap3 doom siren, Blast master at full power is S8 ap3
Nurgle: +1T, FnP, blight grenades( -1 attack from enemy) Nurgles rot is now a psyhic power and works much like the current pandemic staff.
Tzeentch: 4+inv, inferno bolts (ap3 bolters), slow and purposeful on 1D6 (2D6 with sorcerer), Only 1 wound not 2. Sorcerers will have force weapons and access to LOTS of psychic powers, they will lose the ability to instant pass psychic tests but gain the ability to cast 2 powers a turn.

Ok so it does look like the only cult marines are these listings, the questions is are there Pure cult list then? I.E. havoc with mark in pure cult army led by lord of slaanesh will have…because that sucks if you can’t run the first 4 Chaos armies. My personal effect would be the loss of 10 man havoc melta gun to doom siren trade…all geared towards cc.

But I still bet cult armies are a more restricted list. Some spin off of the last set up for 100% pure cult armies.

Beef the Link on you banner doesn't work for me I want to see your  Figs...help

Sure it is. A Space Marine Librarian is an HQ, a TS Sorceror is just leading a squad.

Now, if there was some psyker HQ choice for a TS list, or, hell, Ahriman himself, then yeah, he should be a better psyker than a random Librarian.

I agree with the sentiment. Chaos in general, and Tzeentch armies in specific, should be much better pyskers than loyalists of any army. But a SM Librarian is about the best psyker the imperium has to offer, while a TS Sorceror is just an Asp Champ with some spells.

Didn't Tzeentch sorcerers used to run in packs, back in 1st edition? A chaos champion with a squad of Thrall Wizards, or something? Couldn't each thrall wizard increase the sorcerer's power? Why am I even typing this? It's too late. GW has probably already written the codex anyway.

I pray to Tzeentch our Familiars and Thrall Wizards are staying in this next book. I will be MAJORILY upset that my 50$'s worth of cool, customized figures are deemed unuseable.

Posted By 5deadly on 05/20/2007 9:04 PM
Abababoon, dude why are you goin’ off ½ cocked at me Pimpy?

Doobie don't do nothing half cocked G, ya feel?

Seriously? Pimpy? That is more unintentionally funny than anything Jester's ever said...

Oh, and I wouldn't quote Torador. He's expressed joy over GW price increases, so his opinion counts for ZERO.

BYE

His opinion counts as much as anyone elses round here.

He's entitled to it the same as you are, just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's useless.

Posted By Brother Bartius on 05/21/2007 2:09 AM
His opinion counts as much as anyone elses round here.

He was happy about a GW price rise. Even by Dakka standards that's freakin' weird.


Anyway we're getting off top, so:

Rar, rar, rar, GW can't write rules, cliche, cliche, cliche, no cults sucks, yadda, yadda, yadda.

BYE

Posted By Phryxis on 05/20/2007 9:17 PM

Likewise, it is not fluffy for a space marine librarian to be more powerful than a Thousand Sons sorcerer.

Sure it is. A Space Marine Librarian is an HQ, a TS Sorceror is just leading a squad.

Now, if there was some psyker HQ choice for a TS list, or, hell, Ahriman himself, then yeah, he should be a better psyker than a random Librarian.

I agree with the sentiment. Chaos in general, and Tzeentch armies in specific, should be much better pyskers than loyalists of any army. But a SM Librarian is about the best psyker the imperium has to offer, while a TS Sorceror is just an Asp Champ with some spells.

What has slot occupied by a unit got to do with 'fluffiness' of relative power level between 2 psykers. Just cos a random marine libbies is an HQ does not mean they must be more powerful than someone elses troop slot from a fluff perpective.

I thought that the many psykers of the TS before the heresy were amongst the most powerful psykers in the imperium. Are those psykers not now 'just' asp champs and leading squads. How does the random libby compare to that, being best in the imperium 'today' is no guarantee of being more potent than those who were the best 10000 years ago and are still around, but with 1000s of  years of extra experience and the backing of Tzeentch.

Whilst I can see a Chief Librarian being more powerful than a Aspiring Sorcerer leading a bunch of Rubric Marines, what Doobie is actually talking about are the powers that Tzeentch has (or lackthereof).

Their individual powers should be better than the Marine ones. They worship the God of Magic - there should be some perks that go with that. Being immune to Psychic Hoods would be a good start.

BYE

H.B.M.C if you are going to quote, don't spin mis-truths. I said I didn't mind the price of the new Empire foot troops box, because the models had a ton more options and were much better figs. To me the value was greater because they were much better. If I didn't care about looks I would just use Mighty Empires figs for everything I fielded, but I don't. We can have our own opinions, just don't misrepresent others.

The rumour mill stated that psykers with the mark of Tzentch were able to use an extra power a turn, and had access to more powers. They still have to test for each power used. There may only be one specific Tzentch power, but they had access to the generic ones also. I will be curious to see what Ld value they have if it's low it will be for naught...

Edit--looks like TS Sorcerers can cast two.

Posted By 5deadly on 05/20/2007 9:04 PM
Ok so it does look like the only cult marines are these listings, the questions is are there Pure cult list then?

If by "pure cult list" you mean "vanilla Chaos list but with only cult marines as Troops, no Fast Attack, only dreadnoughts as Elites, and only vehicles as Heavy Support," then yeah, I'm sure you'll be able to run a pure cult list.  But if you want to use havocs, bikes, or terminators, then the best you can do is give them a mark and pretend they're cult marines.

Of course, if you're playing Thousand Sons you'll have to make up a reason why your terminators are neither rubric marines nor sorcerers but just a bunch of punks with a 4+ inv save.  Maybe they're sorcerers that are so powerful that if they concentrate really hard not only does their terminator save work better than usual, but they also no longer count as psykers when the Culexus comes to get them.  Or something like that.

Posted By 5deadly on 05/20/2007 9:04 PM
havoc with mark in pure cult army led by lord of slaanesh will have…

...the same thing that a havoc squad with mark in a vanilla army has: +1I.  Because the Mark of Slaanesh gives you +1I.  If you want sonic weapons then take a noise marine squad.

Posted By 5deadly on 05/20/2007 9:04 PM
because that sucks if you can’t run the first 4 Chaos armies.

There is no "first 4 Chaos armies" anymore.  There is ONE Chaos army.

Posted By Phryxis on 05/20/2007 9:17 PM

Likewise, it is not fluffy for a space marine librarian to be more powerful than a Thousand Sons sorcerer.

Sure it is. A Space Marine Librarian is an HQ, a TS Sorceror is just leading a squad.

That has more to do with numbers than with relative psychic power.  In a space marine army librarians are relatively rare so they take an HQ slot.  But TS have very many (x2) librarian-sorcerers so they go in Troops.  Just like how Deathwing terminators can be Troops.  Does this mean they should be weaker than Ultramarine terminators taken as Elites?  Sanctioned psykers and Inquistitors are HQs too.  Should they be more powerful psykers than TS sorcerers?

Posted By puree on 05/21/2007 5:20 AM
I thought that the many psykers of the TS before the heresy were amongst the most powerful psykers in the imperium. Are those psykers not now 'just' asp champs and leading squads. How does the random libby compare to that, being best in the imperium 'today' is no guarantee of being more potent than those who were the best 10000 years ago and are still around, but with 1000s of  years of extra experience and the backing of Tzeentch.

Not only that, the Rubric of Ahriman is supposed to have turned all the weaker sorcerers to dust while enhancing the powers of the ones that survived.

Anyone else notice that chosen are gone?  They have been replaced with CSM veterans.  They have infiltrate.  This is because they learned it in the Horus Heresy during the Siege of Terra.  Because they're veterans.

My God... you people need to chill out and take a step back.

I am by NO means a GeeDub fanboi, but I have never heard this much p*ssing and moaning about ANYTHING so trivial in my entire freakin' life.

Will the different chaos lists still work? I'm geussing yea, yea they will.

Will the list be the same? Nope!!! However, rules changes are a typical part of what happens when a game (and that's any game) and it's rules continue to evolve. If you can't see that, you need to stop being naive and accept reality.

Will the list be perfect? Nope, but it'll be a helluva lot better than it is now. That's for-damn-sure.

Will it render models unuseable? Yep, probably so. It happens, it sucks, and in the end I'm sure there will be another creative way to use the models.

Will people still play the lists? Yep, and just because a handfull of players b*tch, yell, l throw up their hands in disgust is a good thing in my not so humble opinon. Survival of the fittest demonstrated at its most basic level.

Will I get flamed for this? Probably.

Will I care? Nope.

That's all I've got, Kthxplzdrivethru.

-Red__Thirst-

Like I said, TS sorcerers are rumoured to cast two powers a turn instead of one. Is that more powerful? Most likely...

Cult lists may come at a later time. There is at least one more book due in the future. Who knows what that will hold. The Chaos Dex is a generic dex of renegade marines. What you are supposedly suppose to more likely run into than the cult lists. More like a mish mash of units, than full legions.It is basically the Space Marine codex of Chaos.

<h1>*****Warning Incoming Wall of text from old school player**** </h1> <h1>If these rumor are true it’s a shame what they have done with the chaos list. Taking away the ability to run a pure army is a travesty. That’s what made Chaos what it was, the ability to run 6 different armies. Undivided, Undivided with Cult units, Khorne, Nuggle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch armies. (Back then they either came with one of the 4 marks or no mark) </h1> <h1>If they take those options away then the chaos book is a piss poor offering by GW. </h1> <h1>To sit here and listen to a bunch of folks who probably never seen a copy of second edition let alone played it jumped on the GW bandwagon in 3^rd edition or later try to tell people how things where “back in the day” its sad. </h1> <h1>By GW removing the Wargear listings from the codex all they are doing is dumbing the game down so much that it loses much of its appeal that it had from 1^st and 2^nd edition. From the thing I have seen said on these forums it might be an indication of why they are doing this some the cheesy player cant play with the super cheesy forces anymore and the rest who whine and complain about how cheesy army “X” is. </h1> <h1>If you want a 100% balanced game then you and your friend should go play the same nilla marine army list against each other. But I still remembering the fun of watching some people play with an all harlequin force on jetbikes with the ..forget the name but it was a shield that the harder it was hit the bigger the flash was and blinded the enemy..jump off his bike after he got it to the fastest speed band suicide his troop and watch the enemy walk around blinded and each turn he did this. Was it cheesy ..hell yes was it fun to do/play against yea you always laughed and had a great time. </h1> <h1>That’s what made 40k fun the little bits of randomness you came across while playing. This game has been made this way by the people on these forums, whined at GW Staff , cried and whined “booo hooo  This guy beat me with this super cheesy army that I just cant beat” but then when you ask him what he brought to fight off this super cheesy army he brings his standard force with maybe his 500point of swap out points. Sorry don’t *female dog* and moan when your 1500-2000 points of army “X”  fielded  same way each and every time cant defeat every army it runs across. There are going to be armies you run across that your standard package just cant beat as easy. </h1> <h1>Look at all these new and rumors for all the soon to be released codex’s this is what you have wrought with all your *female dog*ing and moaning. “I had a chat with ‘Insert GW Staff here’ and I spent 10min *female dog*ing about how this army is way over powered. You have helped create some simplified kids game from what was once a great game. </h1> <strong style="">Thanks [/b]

Posted By Toreador on 05/21/2007 12:00 PM
It is basically the Space Marine codex of Chaos.

Ouch!  That burns us! 

And that, is exactly why the Chaos players are so horrified by what they are seeing so far, and are trying to vent their frustrations in a vain attempt to change the tide.  I don't want to play "another space marine list" I want to play diabolical veterans of ten thousand years of war, with yapping demon beasts and slavering chaos mutants following up from behind!  I want crazy, fun, and wild troops and ... in short something very different from SM.

Maybe I missed it and assuming cult squads are not troop selections: Do we know if the Lord/Prince takes a particular mark will the same marked cult squads be able to be selected as troops?

That's really all the matters to my gaming group with this new codex, as we own plenty of cult troops but very few 'regular' Chaos Marines. We have already made the decision as a group that we will ignore the publication of this new Chaos 'dex and continue to use the old one if the option to make cult squads troops is not an included....or at the very least write that option in our copies of the new codex.

 

 

Posted By Cyric036 on 05/21/2007 12:24 PM

Maybe I missed it and assuming cult squads are not troop selections: Do we know if the Lord/Prince takes a particular mark will the same marked cult squads be able to be selected as troops?

I haven't heard anything either way. I definitely hope that strongly cult-themed lists will be possible using that or something similar.

Your best bet is to make your opinion known now before things are announced or finalized.

Not really meaning it as a disparaging remark

But it is more about the renegade chaos marine forces that run about than the 4 main cult legions. It allows you to take those very specific and unique cult units as troops, but it's not a cult list. This is more the variety of chaos, than a few very specific cult lists. Cult lists that really weren't that good anyway.  Emperor's children did fine, but that was more because of daemon bomb lists.

Undivided --Covered
Undivided with Cult units -- Covered
Khorne, Nuggle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch--Covered, Covered, Covered, Covered.

What you cannot do with this new list is make pure cult lists. The rest are covered.
Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, IW and a few others lose some of their uniqueness.

And those were called Conversion fields.
The old game had it's fun, but it also was badly balanced. We house ruled stuff all over the place as there were so many holes in the rules.

I loved me some overpowered rad grenades though...

H.B.I.V. "Seriously? Pimpy? That is more unintentionally funny than anything Jester's ever said..."
yeah sometimes I Keep it real Hip so the younger guys can "dig my slick Linguistics" I'm also fluent in Ebonics and it's changes By region between 1985-2007, Classic Jive turkey both Harlemese and Oakland slurry slang, also Pre and Post modern Cholo dialects and the curse words of 10 languages.

That?s gonna be too bad if you can?t take cult armies, that above all other Dex Changes would be a travesty. Like Fo? Shizzy.

Posted By Antonin on 05/21/2007 12:22 PM

Posted By Toreador on 05/21/2007 12:00 PM
It is basically the Space Marine codex of Chaos.

Ouch!  That burns us! 

And that, is exactly why the Chaos players are so horrified by what they are seeing so far, and are trying to vent their frustrations in a vain attempt to change the tide.  I don't want to play "another space marine list" I want to play diabolical veterans of ten thousand years of war, with yapping demon beasts and slavering chaos mutants following up from behind!  I want crazy, fun, and wild troops and ... in short something very different from SM.

Quoted for truthiness in all its slavering glory.  It will be ironic that, to play an Alpha legion list, one would have to take a vanilla marine list with the infiltrator trait.

Posted By Toreador on 05/21/2007 12:00 PM
Like I said, TS sorcerers are rumoured to cast two powers a turn instead of one. Is that more powerful? Most likely...

Well that depends on the powers now doesn't it?  Bolt of Change << Fury of the Ancients.

Posted By Toreador on 05/21/2007 12:00 PM
It is basically the Space Marine codex of Chaos.

Except without traits.  More like the Space Marine codex redux of Chaos.

Posted By Toreador on 05/21/2007 12:00 PM
Cult lists may come at a later time. There is at least one more book due in the future. Who knows what that will hold.

There is no book "due" in the future, just some vague expressions of what the designers would "like" to do.  Maybe.  Someday.  If they had unlimited time and money and freedom to do whatever they wanted.  But it's not really up to them anyway.  Unfortunately the designers have little say in the matter.  GW corporate determines the release schedule.

I hope you are right.  But I don't think it's going to happen.  To me it sounds like part game designer wishful thinking and part BS to string us along.  "Oh don't worry!  We'll get to your army in the next book!  In the meantime just use your models with the new rules.  There's no reason to shelve your armies and stop buying models!"

If GW does release this 2nd book of Chaos I will give you a cookie, Toreador.  In fact I will mail you a whole box of cookies.  Chocolate dipped shortbread cookies.  From Big Island Candies.

Posted By jfrazell on 05/21/2007 1:55 PM

Posted By Antonin on 05/21/2007 12:22 PM

Posted By Toreador on 05/21/2007 12:00 PM
It is basically the Space Marine codex of Chaos.

Ouch!  That burns us! 

And that, is exactly why the Chaos players are so horrified by what they are seeing so far, and are trying to vent their frustrations in a vain attempt to change the tide.  I don't want to play "another space marine list" I want to play diabolical veterans of ten thousand years of war, with yapping demon beasts and slavering chaos mutants following up from behind!  I want crazy, fun, and wild troops and ... in short something very different from SM.

Quoted for truthiness in all its slavering glory.  It will be ironic that, to play an Alpha legion list, one would have to take a vanilla marine list with the infiltrator trait.

I know that I'm seriously considering doing that.

At least until they nerf that option away in Codex: Space Marines Pt. II...