Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yep, redux will do away with any of the Space Marine vet options. In my opinion that was a bit much. It tended to overpower some options and units.

Abba, I really hope for those cookies. I just can't see them only doing generic daemons. Any time they have done that, it was only a stopgap or "undivided" style daemon, and the others came along shortly after. It is the only reason that I state somewhat strongly that another book will be along, or something in WD. I just don't see them stopping there as they never have before.

Though Big Island Candies might be out of business by the time that happens.......

Generic daemons? Nah.
Bloodletters= Daemons with the mark of Khorne
Plaguebearers= Daemons with the mark of Nurgle
Daemonettes= Daemons with the mark of Slaanesh
Horrors/flamers= Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch.

And then you'll have a basic undivided daemon.
See? Just as varied as the rest of the army.

Posted By Toreador on 05/21/2007 3:41 PM
Though Big Island Candies might be out of business by the time that happens.......

You really think Big Island Candies is going to fold before GW?

Posted By Da Boss on 05/21/2007 4:01 PM
Generic daemons? Nah.
Bloodletters= Daemons with the mark of Khorne
Plaguebearers= Daemons with the mark of Nurgle
Daemonettes= Daemons with the mark of Slaanesh
Horrors/flamers= Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch.

And then you'll have a basic undivided daemon.
See? Just as varied as the rest of the army.

Don't forget:

Fleshhounds = Bloodletters = Daemons with the mark of Khorne
Nurglings = Plaguebearers = Daemons with the mark of Nurgle
Daemonettes on steeds = Daemonettes = Daemons with the mark of Slaanesh
Screamers = Horrors/flamers = Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch
Furies = Daemons with no mark

And:

Bloodthirster = Greater daemon with the mark of Khorne
Great Unclean One = Greater daemon with the mark of Nurgle
Keeper of Secrets = Greater daemon with the mark of Slaanesh
Lord of Change= Greater daemon with the mark of Tzeentch

Yup.
I was being sarcastic in my post by the way. I'm pretty strongly against taking the variety out of the game.
If WFB can be balanced and fun with many, many different archetypes and units, so can 40K. It just takes competent rules design.
(I also think the current codex is fine as long as one or two things are fixed, but there ya go)

I don't think you can say that the new Dex looks to be "Chaos version of Marines" any more than the current dex looks like a "Chaos version of Marines". The options may have changed slightly but there are a bunch of things you can do that make them behave quite differently than Marines do.

All I see is a bunch of nerfing and people *female dog*ing to high hell about it.

I guess it is hard to explain what I mean.

What I am saying is this is the more common army of Chaos that you would find on the field of battle. A wide array of units, and chaos types. The list fits more as the basis for chaos marine renegades than the major legions of the Heresy.

It is wide open with options, and can take a smattering of everything. The Legions are very defined and limited in options. So this is the more varied chaos dex. I am not saying it is "marines", but it is to chaos what the marine codex is to the Imperium.

Sure, I don't really mean the slot matters, I just mean that a HQ choice in an army is a relatively unique, extremely powerful individual. Obviously the fluff is up to GW to craft, but if I were writing it, I'd think that the most powerful loyalist psykers (Librarians) would fall between Asp Champ Sorcerors and Chaos HQ Sorcerors. Or, put differently, I'd expect them to fall between the nameless masses of Chaos Sorcerors and the named, exceptional psykers of the Chaos Legions.

There's no proof out there, that's just the perception I have.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/21/2007 7:35 PM
All I see is a bunch of nerfing and people *female dog*ing to high hell about it.

Only if by "nerfing" you mean "eliminating the army all together".

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 05/22/2007 3:23 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/21/2007 7:35 PM
All I see is a bunch of nerfing and people *female dog*ing to high hell about it.

Only if by "nerfing" you mean "eliminating the army all together".

Eliminating the army? 

The cults are still there, except now you have more flexibility.  You can still take a completely themed list, more so than you can with say the Eldar dex.   The cult armies were little more than requiring that you give everything a certain mark and restricted access to certain units.  Now you can take anything and give them the mark - I'm not seeing much difference. 

The only army that I really feel for is Alpha Legion because of the cultists - and only because of the cultists.  About losing the ability to do an all infiltrating army for 1 Point per model? No, I'm not sorry.

Everything else can easily be redone inside of the normal list without losing too much.  An armies flavor is based more around the modeling and painting.  The new book looks to have a large variety in play styles available for different army types. 

The only other thing I feel bad about was the fact that demons are generic, but if they have something like Rending then I'm guessing that most of the complainers will shut up since they won't be "nerfed" they'll just be generic.

All too often all these armies special rules were used for nothing more than coming up with some kind of busted up combo that made them not a lot of fun to play against.  "Flavor" wasn't exactly high on the priority list. 
I know that it's true for the Trait rules for Marines, heck I've even done it.  The only real problem I see with the coming toning down of dex's is that it leaves Godzilla and the F*@#ing Eldar at the top of the power curve. 

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/22/2007 4:28 AM
Eliminating the army? 

The cults are still there, except now you have more flexibility.  You can still take a completely themed list, more so than you can with say the Eldar dex.   The cult armies were little more than requiring that you give everything a certain mark and restricted access to certain units.  Now you can take anything and give them the mark - I'm not seeing much difference.

The difference is that giving something the mark no longer makes them a cult marine.  I can mark my terminators with the mark of Tzeentch but that doesn't make them Thousand Sons rubric marines or sorcerers.  Giving your havoc squad the mark of Tzeentch doesn't make them noise marines.

Wait, I'm missing something. 

Currently for Terminators you get the following for giving them a Mark:

Khorne +1 Attack, Fearless
Attack is in new book, no word on Fearless  Terminators are the Same for Khorne

Slanesh Warp Scream (-1I to opponents), option for sonics, fearless.
Straight up +1I in the new book (same net effect).  Unsure on options for sonics, no word on Fearless

Nurgle +1T, Fearless (True grit doesn't work on Combi-bolters if I'm not mistaken)
Same, cept not so sure on Fearless

Tzeench - 2W Terminators, Fearless, Slow & Purposeful
1W, but gain 4+ Invulnerable Save instead of 5+, no more Slow & Purposeful, no word on Fearless or not.

In my view, Slanesh possibly took the hit with the loss of sonics, otherwise stayed the same.  Nurgle stood the same, Khorne stayed the same, and Tzeench changed the most and is quite possibly better for it.  Yes against plasma it's not quite as good, but you're better off against Lascannons and Power Fists now.  You also lose S&P, which helps.  Overall I'm more inclined to think that Tzeench is coming out ahead with the changes.

Things changed, but the net effects aren't so radically different that the army is outright "removed".  Slanesh lost a bit more than most with sonic options going away for Havoks and Terminators.  On the other hand Tzeench and Khorne can now USE Havoks and in the case of Tzeench they're pretty friggin good. 

In many cases where some options were toned down for cult troops others were tuned up.  And doing a completely themed list is still very much possible.  The only ones that really got hit the most are Slanesh, and while they went down other options got better.  It's still a long ways away from "My army got removed".  The cults were little more than giving a marine a mark and not taking other choices.

Well now they do. It's OK because they're not really that different from each other anyway. Obviously, the reason why GW doesn't do the same for offshoot color (red, green, black-and-white)space marines is that they are all VASTLY DIFFERENT and such a thing wouldn't reflect the huge deviation between red marines and blue marines. It's true! Ask a red marine player if his army is similar to a blue marine's army and he'll tell you that you're a noob and it's obviously not the same.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 05/22/2007 3:23 AM

Only if by "nerfing" you mean "eliminating the army all together".

Exactly. You can't nerf what doesn't exist.

It's like people saying they nerfed craftworlds in the Eldar Codex. They didn't nerf craftworlds, they removed them from the game.

Big difference.

BYE

The new CSM codex might end up being a very successful product. But all the rumors are just more "meh" than "ooo." Can't say it excites me, even if the book is exquisitely written and balanced.

I think the second codex, if it happens (good sources on Warseer say it will, but I'll remain skeptical until it's in my hands), might restore some sexiness to Chaos. And although I'm sure it'd spawn complaints about more MEqs, a codex(-ices) focusing on the big 4 of Chaos also has a ton of creative potential. Much more than the SM chapter-specific books, when you think about it.

Posted By Toreador on 05/21/2007 12:00 PM
Like I said, TS sorcerers are rumoured to cast two powers a turn instead of one. Is that more powerful? Most likely...

This will be offset by the rule that TS sorcerers can only cast the new psychic power "Fling Poo".  The poo rends.  This is balanced by the fact that the Thousand Sons can only fling it 6" due to being out of shape since they're all book wormy and nerdy.

After all, an army that can cast two powers a turn instead of one has a lot going for it.

To say that things no longer exists is rather silly. Different chapters and Craftworlds existed long before any specific rules were made for them. In fact only in a horrible supplement did Craftworlds appear. They still exist, just not in a list giving cheesy bonuses. Those were pretty bad....

And which of the cult lists is balanced and regularly played? I know Deathguard have huge problems, along with World Eaters and Thousand Sons. So does that leave Emperor's Children as the only real playable cult list at the moment?

If noise marine terminators and blastmaster Havoks are gone then I'm gonna have a problem...thats really gonna p!ss me off.

You are gonna be mad for now then...

Meh, just use the "counts as" rule and field BMasters as lascannons or something. Close enough. It's your fault, anyway- You were the r-tard that thought it would be cool to field a fluffy, characterful unit in 40K and then expect the rules to back you up. Why didn't you just buy Codex SM like a good little player? ;-P

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/22/2007 5:19 AM
Wait, I'm missing something.

Yes, you certainly are.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/22/2007 5:19 AM
Tzeench - 2W Terminators, Fearless, Slow & Purposeful
1W, but gain 4+ Invulnerable Save instead of 5+, no more Slow & Purposeful, no word on Fearless or not.

And no asp champ sorcerer.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/22/2007 5:19 AM
In my view, Slanesh possibly took the hit with the loss of sonics, otherwise stayed the same.  Nurgle stood the same, Khorne stayed the same, and Tzeench changed the most and is quite possibly better for it.

I don't care about "better" terminators - I care about Thousand Sons terminators, which no longer exist.  You don't play Thousand Sons to be "better" - you play them to be Thousand Sons.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/22/2007 5:19 AM
On the other hand Tzeench and Khorne can now USE Havoks and in the case of Tzeench they're pretty friggin good.

That's nice, but what does that have to do with Thousand Sons?  You can already take havocs in a Tzeentch army under the current rules - just make them unmarked.  Sure, your army wouldn't be a "Thousand Sons army" anymore, but under the new rules there is no such thing as a "Thousand Sons army" anyway - so what's the difference?  A 5+ inv save?  Thousand Sons consist of rubric marines and sorcerers.  A havoc squad with a 5+ inv save is neither.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/22/2007 5:19 AM
It's still a long ways away from "My army got removed".  The cults were little more than giving a marine a mark and not taking other choices.

Yes, and under the current system this actually gives you a good representation of a pure cult army.  Sure a lot of the pt values are off and there's a lot of useless crap, but it's not like eliminating Tzeentch chosen is going to stop GW from releasing more useless crap in the future.

The point is that Thousand Sons consist of rubrics and sorcerers.  Not havoc squads with 5+ inv saves.  Not terminators with 4+ inv saves.  Rubrics and sorcerers.  You used to be able to take rubric terminators, sorcerer chosen, and sorcerer possessed.  But not anymore.  Now there's only one rubric + sorcerer unit.  It comes with 8 rubric marines and a sorcerer in power armor.  That's it.  Because Thousand Sons are no longer an army in their own right.  They are simply a unit that you can take in a vanilla army.

Where is the terminator and the sorcerer?  Where is the champion that was chosen?  They have passed like rain on the mountain.  Like wind in the meadow.

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 8:49 AM
To say that things no longer exists is rather silly. Different chapters and Craftworlds existed long before any specific rules were made for them. In fact only in a horrible supplement did Craftworlds appear. They still exist, just not in a list giving cheesy bonuses. Those were pretty bad....

Yeah, the new eldar list is so cool I was thinking of starting an eldar army.  But I'm having trouble deciding whether to go with Biel-Tan or Ulthwe.  On one hand I love the idea of the Court of the Young King (avatar + exarch retinue = awesome!!) but on the other hand I also like the concept of the Seer Council (multiple farseers = hella cool!!!)  Or maybe I'll go with a Spear of Khaine!  That would be sweet.  Oh, wait a minute.  I can't do that because those things NO LONGER EXIST.

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 8:49 AM
And which of the cult lists is balanced and regularly played?

Which ork list is balanced and regularly played?  Should they be eliminated?

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 8:49 AM
I know Deathguard have huge problems, along with World Eaters and Thousand Sons. So does that leave Emperor's Children as the only real playable cult list at the moment?

It depends on what you mean by "playable".  Thousand Sons sorcerer chosen won't really help you win any games, but they're "playable" in the sense that they have rules and thus you can "play" them.  Now I'm no big city lawyer, but I reckon eliminating them from the rules won't make 'em more "playable".

Okay, how about competitive then? And you don't know that they have been forever eliminated. But that discussion has been had.

Didn't we play this game....

Iyanden - You can do this with the normal list. Spiritseers are now part of core. Exists.

Saim Hann - Autarch as the chief and bikes are now troops and cheaper. Don't get a standard for rerolls in CC.Exists.

Alaitoc - Pathfinders are part of main list. Lost some of the special rules, but few will really miss that unbalance. Exists.

Biel-Tan - Court of the young king is gone, but boy was that a horrible unit on the field of battle in performance and rules. Heck, I thing I would house rule you being able to use it if you wanted.... Otherwise you can now make all aspect armies, with most of them being much more effective now. Exists.

Ulthwe - Multiple Farseers and hordes of Warlocks still exist...... Fewer Farseers overall can be fielded, but the cheesiness of the rules is gone. Black Guardians were also undercosted, but you can still make the army.Exists.

Other than the Court of the Young king most everything that gave those Craftworlds their flavor are still there. What was removed was most of the stuff that was wrong about those lists.

I take on plenty with my orks, and do a fine job in battle thank you very much. If someone fielded 3 falcons I would have a problem, but I have drawn and won against my last two min/maxed marine opponents. So whatever....

I heard that since the Death Guard, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons weren't competitive enough that did the player a favor and made it so that you couldn't play them anymore. You can't be under the competitive curve with an army if the army doesn't exist! Oh, and then they removed Emperor's Children too because they wanted to actually put some balance in the new book, so they made them not exist, like the other cults. I'm glad GW made this wise decision.

Also, I heard that in order to ensure that all armies and units are viable in tournaments, they are making 5th edition have 3 codexes; Codex Space Marines, Codex Carnifexes, and Codex Falcons.

Ok, I'll play your game:

Squats - Use Codex: Imperial Guard.  Infantry platoons as squat brotherhood squads.  Support squads as thunderers.  Sanctioned psyker as living ancestor.  Carapace command squads or stormtroopers as hearthguard.  Allied grey knights or battle sisters as exo-armored hearthguard.  No real good options for bikes or trikes, but rough riders are close enough and midget bikers were a dumb idea anyway.  You can still make the army.  Exists.

Hey, this is fun!  In fact I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an army that doesn't exist!

Pan Fo - ...?

Well all in all it isn't as much the list that makes the army competitive it's the general leading it. And, besides isn't it half the fun trying to find a way to win when it seems that all is against you. not to mention how rewarding it is when you design a list purely on fluff/models you like and woop someone?s ass when their list was purely designed to win games, and made by people you have never meet on an online forum.

Also, why does everyone keep bringing up squats? Don't you all remember how stupid/terrible they were?

Posted By Death_Wing on 05/22/2007 3:53 PM
Well all in all it isn't as much the list that makes the army competitive it's the general leading it. And, besides isn't it half the fun trying to find a way to win when it seems that all is against you. not to mention how rewarding it is when you design a list purely on fluff/models you like and woop someone’s ass when their list was purely designed to win games, and made by people you have never meet on an online forum.

Also, why does everyone keep bringing up squats? Don't you all remember how stupid/terrible they were?

Nah. They just remember spending $12,000 on a 50,000 point Squat army, then having GW pull the carpet out from under them.


Also: If you field your all Gretchin and Stikka Boyz army against Maul's Marines (or a similar list) and tell me that it's the general leading the army that makes the difference with a straight face...

Oh. Sorry. I thought by 'General' you meant player. If you mean HQ unit, I totally agree for many armies.

Posted By Death_Wing on 05/22/2007 3:53 PM
Well all in all it isn't as much the list that makes the army competitive it's the general leading it. And, besides isn't it half the fun trying to find a way to win when it seems that all is against you. not to mention how rewarding it is when you design a list purely on fluff/models you like and woop someone’s ass when their list was purely designed to win games, and made by people you have never meet on an online forum.

You're missing the point entirely.  I'm not complaining about Thousand Sons armies not being competitive anymore (they never were).  I'm complaining about Thousand Sons armies not existing anymore.  You can take a vanilla army with some Thousand Sons squads in it, but you can't take a Thousand Sons army.  How am I supposed to "design a list purely on fluff/models" when Thousand Sons no longer have a list?

How would one make a fluffy Thousand Sons army with the new list?  The Thousand Sons legion is supposed to consist entirely of sorcerers and rubric marines.  So no raptors, havocs, bikers, veterans, or terminators.  Rubric terminators are gone.  So are sorcerer chosen and possessed.  All you're left with is Thousand Sons in power armor, vehicles, daemons, and Ahriman.

Its pathetic that GW is slowly killing its own game. "Hurry up and lets nerf another codex", they say. "EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY LORD OF THE RINGS", they say. GW is like an abusive boyfriend, and all their customers are like the stupid girlfriend that just doesn't know when to leave.

Hey there. Long time lurker, yadda yadda. You know the rest
(I always seem to pick flammable threads to start with...)

Not that Toreador needs a knight in shining armour, but he's about halfway right in what he's saying. The Eldar 'dex, from what I've heard from most people, is a lot more balanced, with a lot more viable choices (though I know people will use this sentence as 'GeeDub wants to sell more!' - So what?).

The new Chaos Codex is rumoured to cover essentially Chaos Renegades. It does include the cult legions, but it's not wholly dedicated to them. How many people did use "vanilla" Chaos anyway? It has been said that another Chaos 'dex is in the works, possibly more than one in the same way as certain Marine Chapters. Why not wait and see? I know that rumours are possibilities (especially being reliable, as the man who posted it - Grimtuff, if I recall correctly, on Warseer) but he said himself that these could change. We don't know how much of the finished codex he has seen. I'm sure you've all read this before, so I'll finish it now. If you dislike it so much, don't buy it. That's the best way to show your displeasure about it to whom it really concerns. But don't criticize it when it's still 4 months way.

Plus, some of the releases will probably be worth picking up.