Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey there. Long time lurker, yadda yadda. You know the rest
(I always seem to pick flammable threads to start with...)

Not that Toreador needs a knight in shining armour, but he's about halfway right in what he's saying. The Eldar 'dex, from what I've heard from most people, is a lot more balanced, with a lot more viable choices (though I know people will use this sentence as 'GeeDub wants to sell more!' - So what?).

The new Chaos Codex is rumoured to cover essentially Chaos Renegades. It does include the cult legions, but it's not wholly dedicated to them. How many people did use "vanilla" Chaos anyway? It has been said that another Chaos 'dex is in the works, possibly more than one in the same way as certain Marine Chapters. Why not wait and see? I know that rumours are possibilities (especially being reliable, as the man who posted it - Grimtuff, if I recall correctly, on Warseer) but he said himself that these could change. We don't know how much of the finished codex he has seen. I'm sure you've all read this before, so I'll finish it now. If you dislike it so much, don't buy it. That's the best way to show your displeasure about it to whom it really concerns. But don't criticize it when it's still 4 months way.

Plus, some of the releases will probably be worth picking up.

But Abba, you are getting silly there. There is no Squat codex to make the different strongholds from. In fact I have seen what you have said put to use with the IG dex and doctrines. There are a few squat armies still lurking out there. I also have seen Chaos players use the marine dex for counts as, and visa versa. Relictors turn out nicely using the chaos dex.

But the fact is I can take the theme of each Craftworld and make that from the current list.

What defines each?
Iyanden - Lots of wraithguard and wraithlords. Easy to do in the new dex.

Saim Hann - Lots of bikes and skimmers. You can do that.

Alaitoc -Lots of pathfinders and scouts. Okay, I can do this too.

Biel-Tan -An army of mostly aspects. This too.

Ulthwe - Lots of guardians led by a seer council consisting of Farseers and Warlocks. Okay, done.

It isn't necessarily a constrictive list that defines the army. It is following a theme. The current dex allows this and much more.

I will agree with you that the Chaos dex doesn't cover all bases. But, from what it sounds like, it isn't meant to. The cults are something very specific and they may cover this in the future. What they are doing right now is covering as much as they can with one "balanced?" and well "defined?" book.

Haven't been able to find anything really to use my zoats as a "counts as" force in my Eldar though... Jetbikes? Now that could be cool....
I have a lot that has been made obsolete still in my collection. Still have some squats around someplace too. How long were Harlequins gone for?

Wow, I will take half right Not sure about the knight in shining armour. In a "counts as" list I don't make a good damsel.

I'm quite relieved that you feel like this, on the other hand I'm unsure about you already knowing you don't make a good damsel

Oh, one thing I forgot to add, seems like everyone and their hairdresser had a Squat army.

I'm fairly confident in the approach GW has taken with the codex. If it turns out to be crap, I'll skip it. Plenty of armies to play with. Plenty of time for other stuff if I don't play with my toy soldiers, anyway.

I think I would rather have a playable semi-Thousand sons list, than an unplayable one (assuming that it becomes playable!)
I don't think it's a far stretch to count the terminators as rubric. People have done worse...

You can make some passable cult lists with what we know of the new book. Not perfect, but enough to get by for awhile. The ones that are hurt are the Alpha Legion and the Word Bearers. Not sure they can even make a counts as force...

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 10:05 PM
But Abba, you are getting silly there. There is no Squat codex to make the different strongholds from.

Why do you need a squat codex?  Can't you simply use the imperial guard codex and follow a squat theme?  My point is that if you allow for "counts as" then there is no such thing as an army/unit/option that doesn't "exist".  Sure, you can count your terminators as rubrics (even though they don't have any of the rubric rules) and the asp champ as a sorcerer (even though he doesn't have any psychic powers) just like how you can count your squats as imperial guard.

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 10:05 PM
It isn't necessarily a constrictive list that defines the army. It is following a theme. The current dex allows this and much more.

And the theme for Thousand Sons is rubrics and sorcerers.  If you try that with the new rules you're going to end up with one unit choice (assuming you can even take them as Troops).  If you want to make a Tzeentch-themed Black Legion army with Thousand Sons allies then these changes sound fantastic!  Now you can mark your raptors and your havocs and your obliterators and everything.  But none of those belong in a pure Thousand Sons army.

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 10:05 PM
I will agree with you that the Chaos dex doesn't cover all bases. But, from what it sounds like, it isn't meant to.

"Excuse me, Mr Game Designer sir?  In the new codex my army doesn't seem to be existing anymore."
"That's ok, don't worry - it isn't meant to."
"Oh gee, thanks.  I feel much better now."

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 10:05 PM
The cults are something very specific and they may cover this in the future.

Or not.  As much as I'd like to send you those cookies... :(

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 10:26 PM
You can make some passable cult lists with what we know of the new book. Not perfect, but enough to get by for awhile.

Like until 5th edition?

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 10:26 PM
The ones that are hurt are the Alpha Legion and the Word Bearers. Not sure they can even make a counts as force...

Sure they can.  You might need to use Codex: Space Marines for Alpha Legion if you want infiltrating marines or Codex: Imperial Guard/Daemonhunters/Witchhunters if you want cultists, but you can still make them using "counts as".  They won't at all work like they used to, but that's par for course when your codex gets redone.  And if daemons in fact don't occupy FOC slots then Word Bearers won't be that worse off at all.  Then again, the new rules for daemons might just plain suck.

Everytime GW does a new codex something becomes obsileet. Why is this a suprise to anybody? Further more its expected so why bother get angry. Cutbacks have to be made. 40K has to many races now thats its getting to much lol

Posted By beef on 05/22/2007 11:14 PM
Everytime GW does a new codex something becomes obsileet. Why is this a suprise to anybody? Further more its expected so why bother get angry.

I'm not surprised at all.  I've been expecting this to happen ever since Codex: Eldar.  And I'm not angry.  I'm sad. :(

Posted By beef on 05/22/2007 11:14 PM
Why is this a suprise to anybody?

It's not. That's why we're unhappy. We want them to stop doing that. Their way of balance is to just cut away at everything rather than fixing the problem.

BYE

Posted By Toreador on 05/22/2007 8:49 AM
 I know Deathguard have huge problems

 

 

Understatement of the year.

 

Why go for my yearly Prostate checkup, when I can pull out my lovingly crafted DG army and go play the umteen million Tau/Eldar airforce or SM Speeder AC rending death lists and get the same net effect.

 

Yep, one of my opponents is Ryan the founder of Deathguard.org. He seemed happy he might be able to compete again with his Deathguard. Heavy weapons? He'll gladly take them!

We only have a complaint if they do not come out with a cult book. So we will have to wait and see on the four cults. I would like those cookies too Abba.

Until then, we have what we have. Hopefully something most can make an army out of, and have a reasonable chance of winning a game. Hopefully not an Eldar codex that is almost a nice balanced dex.

Posted By Toreador on 05/23/2007 7:28 AM

 Hopefully not an Eldar codex that is almost a nice balanced dex.

Compared to what? The DA codex?

Abba...so by your line of thinking you must have been equally pissed in 2nd edition when there was no cult lists or craftworlds either, eh?

Capt K

The DA dex is fine. I'll state that one again. If the Marine Codex gets the nerf bat and same treatment as both BA and DA look to get, it will be pretty even across the board. (excepting many falcon eldar and zilla nid.)

The DA Dex being what it is has nothing to do with the Eldar being "almost balanced". The Eldar dex is anything but balanced, in fact it's still one of the most abusable codex's in the game. The fact that it's not quite as stupidly abusable as the last one (plus Craftworlds) was doesn't mean it's "almost balanced".

When I say almost, I say it because there is only one issue with the Eldar list. Unkillable Falcons. Not much else that causes any issues. Everything else in the list has a counter or foil. It's not a bad list other than the Falcons when totally loaded out on gear.

I hate to agree with Toreador, but giving credit where credit is due, the eldar codex is not nearly as broken as you make it out to be Voodoo boyz.

Falcons are a nasty thing, admittedly, along with potentially hazardous cargo. But that doesnt make the codex broken, just like combat squads and the unneccesary nerfing of ravenwing and especially deathwing make Dark angels balanced (as an interesting aside, you need something to counterpoint with DA to claim that it is balanced, until all other codices follow suit, DA most certainly remain unbalanced towards underpowered. You need a point of reference to claim balance, as of yet, there is little to make such claims).

I have been comparing both the 3rd ed. eldar codex as well as the craftowrold expansion to the newer 4th ed. eldar codex the last couple days, and it is a far cry from what it once was. In fact, I have been making an article as a counter point to your earlier thread declaiming eldar as the most broken thing since...eldar.

Toreador wants to lovingly sex up Jervis for making Dark Angels, and Voodoo Boyz wants to sadistically sex up Phil Kelly for making eldar. We get it.

Posted By Hellfury on 05/23/2007 11:42 AM
I hate to agree with Toreador, but giving credit where credit is due, the eldar codex is not nearly as broken as you make it out to be Voodoo boyz.

Falcons are a nasty thing, admittedly, along with potentially hazardous cargo. But that doesnt make the codex broken, just like combat squads and the unneccesary nerfing of ravenwing and especially deathwing make Dark angels balanced (as an interesting aside, you need something to counterpoint with DA to claim that it is balanced, until all other codices follow suit, DA most certainly remain unbalanced towards underpowered. You need a point of reference to claim balance, as of yet, there is little to make such claims).

I have been comparing both the 3rd ed. eldar codex as well as the craftowrold expansion to the newer 4th ed. eldar codex the last couple days, and it is a far cry from what it once was. In fact, I have been making an article as a counter point to your earlier thread declaiming eldar as the most broken thing since...eldar.

Toreador wants to lovingly sex up Jervis for making Dark Angels, and Voodoo Boyz wants to sadistically sex up Phil Kelly for making eldar. We get it.

My point about the Eldar (personal bias aside) is that it's hardly an "almost balanced" codex.  It's one of the best armies in the game, and with Chaos getting redone (and probably toned down significantly), and if Marines get a Redux ala Dark Angels, Eldar will be left standing at the top of the 40k pike with Godzilla Nids, and honestly even then Eldar have a compelling argument for being the better army, possibly one of the best in the game.

That was my point, nothing more.

I'd also like to make it clear that the only thing that gets sexed up by me is Mrs. Voodoo Boyz.  I'm sure Phil Kelly is drowning in a Veil of Tears with this knowledge, but that's just the way it is.

I am in total agreement that DA is less powerful than Codex Space Marines, and some of the past dexes. . There is absolutely no argument there.

What I see in DA is a fix for most everything that was over the top in Codex SM. Most transport vehicles are cheaper, Min/Max tac squads removed, more expensive Tornados, fewerand more expensive AC in Terminator squads. Top tier tank busting weapons seem to have gone up across the board. This was noticeable in Codex Eldar also. I see the same things being done in the BA preview, and it is looking like Chaos is following suit. Terminators are becoming better just because a lot of the weapons that destroy them are becoming either rarer or more expensive. Vehicles get a boost from this also. By lowering the power of a lot of these armies, they seem to me to be coming more in line with each other. By default if a lot of the options are nerfed in Codex Space Marines a lot of other armies become more viable.

Eldar are still a problem with the toughness of the mech lists, but other than that the army is fairly balanced. Voodoo, what makes them overpowered outside of Falcons in your opinion?

Tyranids in any build but Zilla have more of a chance, and can become quite competitive.

Chaos has some very nasty builds right now. If balanced out gets one of the power armies.

Tau pretty nasty mech builds, but not sure if overpowering or not. Limited in my experience against nasty builds.

Necron, Orks, SOB, Daemon Hunters, IG, Dark Eldar all become much more viable after the major players are toned down.

I am curious to see your article Hellfury. I was doing about the same last night when I was comparing the craftworld lists to the current dex.

And at this point, with only the DA book out as a gauge of things to come I can't really say how balanced or not it is. Only when BA, Chaos and Orks hit will we have something to gauge the new style on. I have hopes, but I also have been with GW for quite some time and know they often goof up.

I know with the DA list I can put on a good showing against most armies at the moment except SM. That book just does everything a little better and cheaper than I can. The only real benefit I have is cheap rhinos and razorbacks, which I use a lot more now.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/23/2007 12:01 PM

My point about the Eldar (personal bias aside) is that it's hardly an "almost balanced" codex.  It's one of the best armies in the game, and with Chaos getting redone (and probably toned down significantly), and if Marines get a Redux ala Dark Angels, Eldar will be left standing at the top of the 40k pike with Godzilla Nids, and honestly even then Eldar have a compelling argument for being the better army, possibly one of the best in the game.

Isn't that ther point though? Eldar equal to Nids equal to Tau equal to a redone marine codex? Isn't that the ideal that they are all "one of the best armies in the game."

 

Except it doesn't work that way now. Eldar can easily out pace Marines, Tau, and possibly even Nidzilla - especially in Objective based missions.

If Marines get a redux ala Dark Angels, I don't see them holding up to Eldar very well, let alone Nidzilla, or Mech Tau.

The thing is, DA is the frist of the new Dexes. Tau, Eldar, and Nids are not.

Again, what is so bad about the eldar list other than kitted out Falcons Voodoo?

What is so bad about the Tyranid list without Nidzilla?

Chaos will be a big measuring point. IF it is balanced with DA it's all good. If not... well it goes down hill.

I think the big measuring point will be to compare the new Chaos dex to the new SM dex. If those are balanced (as long as they are different and unique from each other!), then we're good. If Chaos matches the DA book, and SM match the Eldar, then there are problems.

The problem with Eldar is summed up in two words Holofields and Harlequins.

The combo of Holofield/Stone Falcons with other units in the dex make for some very bad combs which just put them over the top.

Nids without Nidzilla are fine, heck Nids without Elite fex's is fine. It's all about the combination of uses that you get when you start adding things on top of each other.

With Chaos, we'll have to see. Even with S & T 4, the ability of each army to max out on Oblits in heavy makes for some potentially nasty combos; we'll have to see how it plays out when the dex is released.

As far as DA being a new breed of things, look no further than the new Blood Angels rules to show you were that breed ends. The red space marines >>>>> the green space marines.

Harlequins aren't what people keep saying they are. They are easily dealt with. Falcons can make them tougher, but they are still a very expensive very quick to die unit. Rhino up, rapid fire. Drop pods, bikes, any fast moving vehicle with anti-infantry weapons kills Harlequins dead. There are lots of ways to counter them.

Falcons with all options are what makes the army over the top. The rest of the army is fine.

In agreement about no elite fexes.

Yep, with chaos we will have to see. Oblits without marks, no PF and only beam weapons makes them a lot less nasty.

I am unconvinced so far about BA. Might try to do some test games this weekend. Others I have been talking to say it is pretty even so far.

I agree. If you take away Falcons and elite fexes you pull the teeth out of those armies. Harlequins by themselves are easy to deal with but put them in a Falcon and they become almost over the top. Thats the Falcon for you. The Falcon is so good that it makes soft and squishy units(Dire Avengers) hard. Elite Fexes actually have gotten even better with the marine re-writes. Now with combat squads the odds of picking off that vet sgt. with fist in a 5 man combat squads is better than a 6 or 7 man squad with overshooting from a devourer.

I have watched one unit of Harlequins take out entire flanks of armies... other people's armies that is. Sure I know how to handle Harlequins but you have to respect those units because they can kick your arse if you don't. More than once I have seen a cock sure Space Marine player keep moving up units one right after another into rapid-fire range, roll like shat for Veil of Tears then get ripped a bloody new one. It is an all too common mistake... and just like a bad habit people keep telling themselves their luck will change. Right! From bad to worse.

- Greenie

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 05/23/2007 9:34 AM
Abba...so by your line of thinking you must have been equally pissed in 2nd edition when there was no cult lists or craftworlds either, eh?

Is that the same thing you would tell a Tau player if GW decided to drop them from the game?

Big difference. Every eldar model can still be used. The only thing "removed" was the Court of the young king, and the exarchs are still valid in their squads.

Chaos is different at the moment, but we will have to see if they cover the cults.

You want to know what's funny?  At least, to me.  I started playing 40K in 1990.  Yep, I am that old.  A box of Space Marines for $30.00 was AMAZING!!!  I still have those old miniatures.  They look like Squats in Power Armor compared to miniatures today.

Anyway, what I think is funny is all of the Chaos players complaining about being nerfed.  When I started playing, a Daemon had nothing but 10's for stats.  That would be 10 WS, 10 BS, 10 S, 10 T, 10 W, 10 A, 10 I,....you get my point.  Tell me THAT wasn't overpowered!  Sure, Void Grenades, Rad Grenades, and the like could level the field, but they were still NASTY to see.  Imagine 1 Daemon killing EVERYTHING on the table.  You had to focus all of your army in destroying those things.

I played Eldar for the most part.  I still have the WD that added the Aspects to the game.  I couldn't wait to buy the miniatures.  I still use them today.

Now, to my point.  I played in SEVERAL games where my Eldar army, about 40 miniatures, got trashed by an "army"  of 6 Chaos Marines, Chaos Lord, and a Daemon.  Tell me THAT was fair.

But, you know what?  As soon as I learned to play my Eldar to their strengths, I began to win.  Imagine the look on my "friend's" face when my 5 Swooping Hawks killed his entire Chaos Marine squad in 1 turn.  That little "squad" of 6 Marines cost him about 800 points.  Yeah....he was made of cheese.

You see?  Even if they nerf Choas, you can still use them.  Eldar are SUPPOSED to be fast.  That is what a Falcon is for.  If you cheese it up, it is very difficult to kill.  However, it can be done.  I know, because I used to fight against all 10's in a stat line. 

Aspect Warriors are frail.  Harliquins are frail.  The whole Eldar army is FRAIL.  You just have to know how to beat them.  Any army can be beaten, you just have to know how to do it.  It makes the game more fun.

Personally, I like the idea of more balance.  It means that you have to THINK in order to play the game.  Once you figure out how to use your army, you can beat down ANY amount of cheesiness.  I know, because I have done it.

Now, for fluff.  Cult Marines are supposed to be either IN the Eye of Terror, or the Malestrom.  That's why entire worlds are fortified around the Eye.  In order to stop the horrific crusades that emerge from them.  Outside of the Eye or Malestrom, Cult Marines should be VERY rare.  As far as I know, only the Alpha Legion is outside of these areas.   Renegade Marines should be rare, but more common than Cult Marines.  It fits the fluff.  More so than a bunch of Obliterators in a Word Bearer army.  The disease that makes them Obliterators is located IN the EYE!!!

I, for one, am for a game where cheese is limited.  Sure, it sucks to have to use other Codex lists for your prize army.  There should be a cult Codex.  There should also be a way for you to make a Renegade army without Daemons and the like.

The problem comes in the way the game is played.  No one wants to spend $300.00 or more on an army, only to watch it fall apart on the table.  We all want to win.  What happens is that the game is so expensive to play, that only a few ultra miniatures are purchased to win every battle.  As soon as those miniatures are powered down, suddenly your entire army is in danger of collapse.  So, we opt for cheese.

No army should have 6 Obliterators.  No army should have an invulnerable Falcon.  The way the rules are crafted, you don't have to take these options.  We, as cheesy players, purchase these miniatures and make them invulnerable.  That is the only problem with an Equipment List.  It is great for customizing your army, but this is never done.  The lists are simply used to make a balanced miniature way too powerful.

So, I like the DA Codex.  Marines are supposed to be dogmatic and ritualistic.  They're WARRIOR MONKS!!!  In World War II, Japanese soldiers carried Katanas, even though machine guns and flame throwers killed them in the hundreds.  They were WARRIOR MONKS!!!  It was part of their tradition.  So too, is it for Marines.  For 10,000 years, they have waged war in the same manner.  Bolters.  The SUCK in game terms.  If I can only Rapid Fire up to 12", then why not just charge, and deny your enemy their extra attacks when they charge you nest turn?

I know...long post.  I just think it is funny when people complain about stuff they have not even seen.  We don't KNOW what the new Codex will do.  I like the changes so far.  It is more fluffy.  It will limit cheese.  It will encourage players to actuall THINK about what they are doing instead of buying 6 crazy miniatures, and watching them level the field.

That's my $.50 worth at least.