Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AlexHolker wrote:You've already run two GK rumour threads into the ground, Jaon. How about you stop before you make it a third?

I had to think long and carefully about what I put in this message.

I may have been speaking off topic about the racism thing, although I did not start it, but I will not take responsibility for running the previous two into the ground. I was actually telling people to stay on topic, only when it was completely clear the thread was already at the gallows did I say inb4thelock. I would like to think that I was one of the more contributing members when it came to discussing GK in News and Rumours. Please keep your derogatory opinions to your self next time. If you were a MOD, I would take it a different way. But you are not.


Back on topic:

Honestly, the Jokaero I dismiss as a rumour, I'm not going to say "Even GW wouldnt do a thing like that" because I know what happened last time (I was set on fire), but really? Maybe GK are using Jokaero tech, which is also against fluff (to a point) but I am so very certain they are not in the codex.

Im doubting GK are going to have serious anti tank problems. Obviously they have anti horde down pat, but in between the storm raven and the dreadknight, possible riflemen dreadnoughts and purgation squads (god knows what weapons they will be toting) I'm sure a well balanced list will do fine. Sure, they might not be as apt at destroying tanks as their Blood Angels predecessors, but we have all had our doubts about 5th edition releases, and they have all come through. Dont be so quick to dismiss our much awaited knights, guys

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Grey Knights can't fight with Inquisitors using Daemonhosts--or at least when Daemonhosts were introduced in Daemonhunters they couldn't.

The fluff is arbitrary. It will change to suit the needs of the Codex/model lines. How many times must this be explained to you?

Until it actually happens for real
Most of the fluff changes are never as radical as you make them out to be. I've yet to see anything as radically oxymoronic as Grey Knights fighting alongside radical Inquisitors.
And unless it's Pete Haines, I don't see it happening.

Space Wolves ride other failed Space Wolves into battle. Every time I see a TWC now, I can't get that out of my head.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Grey Knights can't fight with Inquisitors using Daemonhosts--or at least when Daemonhosts were introduced in Daemonhunters they couldn't.

The fluff is arbitrary. It will change to suit the needs of the Codex/model lines. How many times must this be explained to you?

Until it actually happens for real
Most of the fluff changes are never as radical as you make them out to be. I've yet to see anything as radically oxymoronic as Grey Knights fighting alongside radical Inquisitors.
And unless it's Pete Haines, I don't see it happening.

Space Wolves ride other failed Space Wolves into battle. Every time I see a TWC now, I can't get that out of my head.

Thunderwolves aren't failed Space Wolves.

So....what are you talking about?

Kanluwen wrote:Most of the fluff changes are never as radical as you make them out to be.

I don’t make them out to be ‘radical’, I just mark them out as changes to serve the whims of whoever is writing the Codex and whatever rules/model needs a’selling.

Ever since the first 5th Ed Codex (Space Marines) this has been happening with increasing force in each Codex, with units added into the Codex where once there were none and whole concepts retconned into being. Some of this is inevitable – they had painted themselves into a corner with the Marines, and you cannot base an entire release on some recut plastic kits, so they had to invent new units to give them something new to do (hence Stern/Vanguard, Thunderfire Cannons, LS Storms, etc.). In some cases it is entirely necessary or appropriate – the Dark Eldar needed a redesign from the ground up to make them fit with current 40K, so the inclusion of many new units was a logical and clever thing to do. And sometimes it doesn’t make any sense or to sell a new model – Thunderwolf Cavalry or the Sanguinor.

It’s not ‘radical’, it’s not a conspiracy - it’s just GW’s current design philosophy. GW change things. They change things all the time. Now I don’t put much faith into the idea of the Jokearo returning either, but the idea that you’re dismissing all rumours is frankly absurd, especially when so many of these current rumours (weapon names, psychic powers, unit names) are confirmed by multiple sources. In fact, your own brand of intractable nature and utterly absolutist point of view is turning you, Kan, into your own form of self-parody. Remember when you told me I couldn’t have a Deathwatch army? That changed.

Get a grip. So many of these rumours are 100% fact. Live with that. I’m sure some of them might be off slightly, and some might be 100% fabrication (either by design or by misinterpretation), but dismissing them all? Come on...

Kanluwen wrote:I've yet to see anything as radically oxymoronic as Grey Knights fighting alongside radical Inquisitors.

You’re making a couple of assumptions here that don’t stand up to any real scrutiny:

1. You’re assuming the distinction between Radical and Puritan will exist within the rules. Background, sure, but within the rules.
2. Assuming the presence of the Daemonhost is true (and that’s one I cannot confirm myself sadly), you’re assuming that its rules will be the same and disallow the use of Grey Knights. Consider how silly that sounds – a unit that stops you from using Grey Knights in a Codex called Codex: Grey Knights.

No. What’s more likely is that, assuming the Daemonhost is there, a fluff rationalisation has been written that glosses over/explains/changes the nature of how Daemonhosts are used within the Inquisition.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And I'll be expecting one hell of an apology if most of this doesn't come to pass.

Pffft!

The weapons you’ve heard of? Real.
The psychic powers? Real.
The new Grey Knight unit names? Real (other than Ghost Knights – they’re new to me and nothing I’ve read even hints at them).
The Dreadknight? Real.

I’ve said in the past that I don’t know much about the Inquisitorial side of things, only that Coteaz is required for Storm Troopers as troops. Note that this doesn’t disprove the notion that Inq Lords will also have that ability, only that Coteaz allows Stormies as troops.

But if the mention of Jokearo is enough to get you to dismiss everything you’ve heard, then why do you bother with these threads?

Kanluwen wrote:
Thunderwolves aren't failed Space Wolves.

So....what are you talking about?

There are no wolves on Fenris.

Puscifer wrote:.
We are not here to talk about racism, we are here to talk about our hobby.

So please... Quit it.

Thank You.

that would require the dakka vets to not troll constantly and get away with it, which is unlikely
it would be nice however if the rumors could be quantified and put on the first post so we dont have to slog through all of this.

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Thunderwolves aren't failed Space Wolves.

So....what are you talking about?

There are no wolves on Fenris.

\


Very good, if Dakka had a Like button this would get a click.

Most of the fluff changes are never as radical as you make them out to be.

Dunno, going from a non mixed chaos codex where you were rewarded for keeping squad sizes sized after their gods holy numbers into a free for all, mix opposing deities freely and minmax units at will...looks like a pretty radical thing to do.

We are not here to talk about racism, we are here to talk about our hobby.

What racism, GW didnt start with any racism, if the point needs to be taken to its extreme then Tolkien did all the so called racist descriptions way back.
Anyway, its racist only if you are overly sensitive so drop it and keep the GK thread going.

@HBMC: Angry red text aside, I hadn't even thought of the radical/puritan thing being retconned away.

Pyriel- wrote:

Most of the fluff changes are never as radical as you make them out to be.

Dunno, going from a non mixed chaos codex where you were rewarded for keeping squad sizes sized after their gods holy numbers into a free for all, mix opposing deities freely and minmax units at will...looks like a pretty radical thing to do.

That's kind of a game mechanic change; the fluff changes were separate from that.

I also find it amusing that Kan is being anti-rumour/gw changes and H is being pro.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:@HBMC: Angry red text aside, I hadn't even thought of the radical/puritan thing being retconned away.

It's 5th Edition, everything is on the chopping block!

I also find it amusing that Kan is being anti-rumour/gw changes and H is being pro.

Always fun to watch those two fight it out


*Mwahaha* My 666:th post!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Most of the fluff changes are never as radical as you make them out to be.

I don’t make them out to be ‘radical’, I just mark them out as changes to serve the whims of whoever is writing the Codex and whatever rules/model needs a’selling.

Ever since the first 5th Ed Codex (Space Marines) this has been happening with increasing force in each Codex, with units added into the Codex where once there were none and whole concepts retconned into being. Some of this is inevitable – they had painted themselves into a corner with the Marines, and you cannot base an entire release on some recut plastic kits, so they had to invent new units to give them something new to do (hence Stern/Vanguard, Thunderfire Cannons, LS Storms, etc.). In some cases it is entirely necessary or appropriate – the Dark Eldar needed a redesign from the ground up to make them fit with current 40K, so the inclusion of many new units was a logical and clever thing to do. And sometimes it doesn’t make any sense or to sell a new model – Thunderwolf Cavalry or the Sanguinor.

Thunderwolf cavalry though isn't really that radical of an idea though. Not like you or several others have made them out to be.

It’s not ‘radical’, it’s not a conspiracy - it’s just GW’s current design philosophy. GW change things. They change things all the time. Now I don’t put much faith into the idea of the Jokearo returning either, but the idea that you’re dismissing all rumours is frankly absurd, especially when so many of these current rumours (weapon names, psychic powers, unit names) are confirmed by multiple sources. In fact, your own brand of intractable nature and utterly absolutist point of view is turning you, Kan, into your own form of self-parody. Remember when you told me I couldn’t have a Deathwatch army? That changed.

I never said you couldn't. I said that it wasn't fluffy.
And before Deathwatch RPG was released?
It wasn't. There was nothing to support the Deathwatch being deployed in any large numbers outside of extreme circumstances, and absolutely nothing whatsoever suggesting that they operated at army levels rather than akin to modern special operations divvying up their forces to strike multiple strategic targets.

The Jokaero, however, are just one of many things not adding up about these rumours.
An Ordo Xenos Inquisitor and Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor are another thing that makes my BS meter go off.

Get a grip. So many of these rumours are 100% fact. Live with that. I’m sure some of them might be off slightly, and some might be 100% fabrication (either by design or by misinterpretation), but dismissing them all? Come on...

Far easier to dismiss them all as crap than try to wade through and see which of the me-too brigade actually know what the hell they're talking about..

Kanluwen wrote:I've yet to see anything as radically oxymoronic as Grey Knights fighting alongside radical Inquisitors.

You’re making a couple of assumptions here that don’t stand up to any real scrutiny:

1. You’re assuming the distinction between Radical and Puritan will exist within the rules. Background, sure, but within the rules.
2. Assuming the presence of the Daemonhost is true (and that’s one I cannot confirm myself sadly), you’re assuming that its rules will be the same and disallow the use of Grey Knights. Consider how silly that sounds – a unit that stops you from using Grey Knights in a Codex called Codex: Grey Knights.

The presence of a Daemonhost or any form of Radical, period, in Codex: Grey Knights would be absurd.

No. What’s more likely is that, assuming the Daemonhost is there, a fluff rationalisation has been written that glosses over/explains/changes the nature of how Daemonhosts are used within the Inquisition.

Maybe, but I still maintain it will be absurd and akin to the loyalist Dark Angels being led into combat by Luther.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And I'll be expecting one hell of an apology if most of this doesn't come to pass.

Pffft!

The weapons you’ve heard of? Real.
The psychic powers? Real.
The new Grey Knight unit names? Real (other than Ghost Knights – they’re new to me and nothing I’ve read even hints at them).
The Dreadknight? Real.

I’ve said in the past that I don’t know much about the Inquisitorial side of things, only that Coteaz is required for Storm Troopers as troops. Note that this doesn’t disprove the notion that Inq Lords will also have that ability, only that Coteaz allows Stormies as troops.

But if the mention of Jokearo is enough to get you to dismiss everything you’ve heard, then why do you bother with these threads?

The Jokaero alone aren't.
It's several of the various parts floating around.
Jokaero, Xenos Inquisitors, Hereticus Inquisitors, etc within the Grey Knights army book all tick that little bell at the back of my head saying "this doesn't seem right...".

pretre wrote:There are no wolves on Fenris.

So help me, if you spoiled either of the Horus Heresy Wolf/Thousand Sons books for me with this I will not be a happy camper.

Manchu wrote:@HBMC: Angry red text aside, I hadn't even thought of the radical/puritan thing being retconned away.

I don’t think it well, at least not in the fluff.

Sadly we live in a world where fluff =/= rules (whereas in a perfect world the two would be 100% congruent). The fluff has Khorne and Slaanesh being enemies for eternity, yet the rules allow you to have legions of Slaaneshi Daemons serving under a quartet of Khornate Heralds.

But back on point, I don’t see them ever removing the distinction between Puritans and Radicals, and the same can be said for the various Inquisitorial factions. Whether that background has any bearing on the rules is another story completely. As I said to The Kan above, look at it from two perspectives, and you tell me which seems the more likely:

1. Daemonhosts are in the Codex, and stop you from using Grey Knights (in a book called ‘Codex: Grey knights’).
2. Daemonhosts are in the Codex and do not stop you from using Grey Knights.

The only other solution to this is that Daemonhosts are not in the Codex, something I am quite willing to believe, but the second option makes far more sense to me from a marketing perspective – why remove an opportunity for your customers to buy more models? If anything, Daemonhosts will get improved rules because the last versions sucked so badly that no one bought them. It will give a new lease of life on an old sculpt, and is the best way to generate more sales with minimal outlay (changing a rule is cheap, changing a model is not, and forbidding the use of a model makes you no money at all).

With all this Jokearo talk, it would appear that this 'dex may be quite useful for the other side yes?

Alpharius already mentioned running these guys as a counts-as Alpha Legion army (though it was my thought as well, he expressed it more often than I have) which would merit the use of such radical henchmen as agents, etc....maybe even from the support of the Cabal, if it still exists in the current timeline.

It'a all good for me regardless...lol!

These rumors are very interesting and I guess we'll all see how some of the 'radical' elements are displayed when the codex comes out.....

ThirdUltra wrote:
With all this Jokearo talk, it would appear that this 'dex may be quite useful for the other side yes?

Alpharius already mentioned running these guys as a counts-as Alpha Legion army (though it was my thought as well, he expressed it more often than I have) which would merit the use of such radical henchmen as agents, etc....maybe even from the support of the Cabal, if it still exists in the current timeline.

It'a all good for me regardless...lol!

These rumors are very interesting and I guess we'll all see how some of the 'radical' elements are displayed when the codex comes out.....

GET INTO IT!

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Rumor was, 4d6 rending for pen. That's a 14 on an average roll, with no rend needed.

Actually, it's 3+4d6, which averages 17

Power-armoured retinues for Inquisitors in an all-elite daemon-killing army?

With laspistols?

I'm sold

Thought, could the Henchmen available be predicated on our choice of Inquisitor?

So that we are able to get a Demonhost for Ordo Malleus, Jokearo for Ordo Xenos, and Arco-Flagelant for Ordo Hereticus?

Kanluwen wrote:

pretre wrote:There are no wolves on Fenris.

So help me, if you spoiled either of the Horus Heresy Wolf/Thousand Sons books for me with this I will not be a happy camper.

It's not a spoiler. It's from the first few pages of Prospero Burns.

Also, two things.
One, you might run across spoilers when reading a popular 40k news site for a book that came out months ago.
Two, you may be wound a bit tight.

It's okay, man. No one's mad and there don't need to be any 'So help me's or 'Not in my GKs'. It's okay.

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

pretre wrote:There are no wolves on Fenris.

So help me, if you spoiled either of the Horus Heresy Wolf/Thousand Sons books for me with this I will not be a happy camper.

It's not a spoiler. It's from the first few pages of Prospero Burns.

Also, two things.
One, you might run across spoilers when reading a popular 40k news site for a book that came out months ago.

Then have the bloody decency to put it in spoiler tags. It's why we have a feature like that on the site.
I try not to post the endings for movies or novels even if they came out years ago, or even anything as big as "there are no wolves on Fenris".

Two, you may be wound a bit tight.
It's okay, man. No one's mad and there don't need to be any 'So help me's or 'Not in my GKs'. It's okay.

Jokaero don't belong in GK. End of story. Without a huge fluff butchering, there's no possible way in hell that they fit. If anything, I think this is a miscommunication caused by someone who read "Jokaero digital weapons" and jumped to "OMG JOKAERO ARE IN THE CODEX!".

They belong, if anywhere at all in the current 40k background, in Tau Empire or as part of a radical Ordo Xenos Inquisitor's retinue.

synack wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Rumor was, 4d6 rending for pen. That's a 14 on an average roll, with no rend needed.

Actually, it's 3+4d6, which averages 17

That'd be ricockulous.

So far, as listed in this thread, anti armor options for Grey Knights are:

Dread Knight's Melee attacks
Dreadnaught's melee attacks (Melee), Multi-melta? (Short to mid range) Lascannon? (Long Range)
Librarian's Might of Titan (Melee), and Vortex of doom (Short range)
Strike squads with Psycannons and teleporters for Side/rear Armor (Mid range)
Henchmen with Multi-meltas and extra range. (Mid range)
Storm Raven (Short, Mid, Long range)
Assassin's armor peircing rounds (long range)

That's alot of options. I'd like to think that having all of these options will allow a GK player to choice how best to add Antai-armor to their army without being forced into a single unit.

The fluffiness of Jokaero being in a combat unit doesn't bother me as I'll just be using a techpriest adept instead.

Think is I remember them saying (might have even been Rick who said it) that the Jokearo wouldn't be returning because they were a bit of a joke at the time - even the name, 'Jokearo', kinda makes that stand out.

That said, that was Rick then, there is no Rick now, and GW changes horses so often during races that there's no real telling what their plan is.

Jokaero don't belong in GK. End of story. Without a huge fluff butchering, there's no possible way in hell that they fit. If anything, I think this is a miscommunication caused by someone who read "Jokaero digital weapons" and jumped to "OMG JOKAERO ARE IN THE CODEX!".

They belong, if anywhere at all in the current 40k background, in Tau Empire or as part of a radical Ordo Xenos Inquisitor's retinue.

I hear what you're saying Kan, and I agree, fluff-wise, since this is technically, a Grey Knight codex here, if they have any kind of Inquisitorial support, it should be from the Ordo Malleus, not from radical Ordo Xenos types. I mean, after all, they are still daemon hunters here, so yeah, alien henchman be damned here....they don't 'fit'.

However, H.B.M.C. has pointed out the cold reality of GW here when it comes to fluff-considerations with armies; they change it and retconn as many times as the wind changes. Once you think you know the fluff of a particualr faction or army, they release something that radically changes it, leaving you scratching your head.

But, this is probably one of those codexes that gives you options, which is always good, to where if you wanted to run a radical Ordo Xenos-type of inquisitorial force, you can. There may or may not be a restriction as to the inclusion of Grey Knight marines in the list, but either way, it still becomes an option for those who want that kind of list.

So, yeah, the Jokaero shouldn't be chumming around a GK Task force that is led by some radical Xenos guy, but I'm sure GW will have some nice little write-up justifying it if this rumor is correct.....it's the way they do things and you always have the option of not using them in the first place...

As an aside though, these guys will fit nicely with the Alphas, so it's all good to me; having an elite force of chaos marines using some dark-age tech or smoke-and-mirrors sorcery and captured equipment while their agents run wild is really making me smile....lol!

AgeOfEgos wrote:

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Thunderwolves aren't failed Space Wolves.

So....what are you talking about?

There are no wolves on Fenris.

\


Very good, if Dakka had a Like button this would get a click.

I think dakka should have a high-five orkmoticon. Just sayin'.

Can anyone explain Crusaders to me?

Why on Earth, would the elite of elite give Humans Storm Shields? Isn't technology slowly going backwards or something?

grimz wrote:Can anyone explain Crusaders to me?

Why on Earth, would the elite of elite give Humans Storm Shields? Isn't technology slowly going backwards or something?

These people are in the retinues of Inquisitors, who presumably have access to lots of good kit.

Slinky wrote:

grimz wrote:Can anyone explain Crusaders to me?

Why on Earth, would the elite of elite give Humans Storm Shields? Isn't technology slowly going backwards or something?

These people are in the retinues of Inquisitors, who presumably have access to lots of good kit.

Yet GK terminators don't, or even the paladins.

What we're hearing now doesn't sound complete. I'm thinking this isn't the codex that will be released.

The Inquisition is higher up in the hierarchy than the Grey Knights though. Its always said they get vastly better tech than the other factions of the IoM.