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By not taking into account TFG, they end up making a lot of unwilling people into TFG because they just won't know better when trying to put together a list.

For example, I won't be able to show up with my Grey Knights without being TFG just because of the nature of the army now.

Fafnir wrote:I won't be able to show up with my Grey Knights without being TFG just because of the nature of the army now.

That is just ridiculous. The codex makes you TFG?

I can't play Grey Knights for fun!
I can't play Inquisition for fun!
Why don't I just lie down and die?

If no one wants to play against your army, then you are, for lack of a better word, a completely unwilling TFG.

Fafnir wrote:If no one wants to play against your army, then you are, for lack of a better word, a completely unwilling TFG.

QQ

Please stop being so melodramatic. I promise it's not the end of the world. I'm sure you'll find plenty of ways to gimp yourself.

If you really feel so bad about it, just impose a self-regulations of not using psychic powers on your vehicles or something.

Q: Why would you take strike squads over purifers? Based on the PDF.

NOTE: Assumptions is Castellan as HQ so Purifers can be troops as well ;D

Stirke Force:
Base 1 Attacks
Strike Squad: 1 weapon per 5
10 pts more expensive on all gun weapons.
Teleport jump or DS...

Purifers : 20 pts greater than strike force, but IMHO well worth the difference.
Base 2 Attacks
2 Weapons per 5
10 pt reduction on all gun weapons.
Cool Cleansing Flame Psychic Power
5 pt reduction on daemonhammer or falchions

Fafnir wrote:If no one wants to play against your army, then you are, for lack of a better word, a completely unwilling TFG.

Generally, if someone refuses to play me just because of the army I use, not even looking at my list, I don't want to play them anyway.

Christ, I want this codex tomorrow, not for my own benefit, but to stop all the melodrama.

It's what tends to happen when you play with the overly sensative types.

I'd take strike squads just for the personal teleporter. If you can really make one 30" move per game, that is a big big deal. Also, warp quake is just awesome. No deep striking over here!

However, I do want to multicharge 60 ork boyz with 5 purifiers just so they all have to deal with the cleansing flame

rdlb wrote:Why don't I just lie down and die?

If the alternative is posting things like that, do.

The fact that you can take a squad of 10 odd warrior acolytes al wielding plasma guns disturbs me slightly.

Conversely, as a Dark Eldar player, I'm now looking at my Crucible of Malediction with glee.

Vaktathi wrote:Wow, I just looked at the HQ section.

Inquisitors are at -1 WS and BS and no 5+ invul or the Aura ability compareed with a Lord Commissar, however have +1 init & carapace and another grenade type and significantly more (and much more powerful) options, are otherwise identical stat & wargear wise, and only 36% of what a Lord Commissar costs...

For the cost of Lord Commissar, you can an Inquisitor in Terminator armor with a Storm Bolter & Nemesis hammer and still have 5pts left over....

Mat Ward...what on earth are you thinking?

If you are buying a lord commissar for his fighting power instead of his leadership you are a baddie. Stop whining.

GalaxyGames wrote:Q: Why would you take strike squads over purifers? Based on the PDF.

NOTE: Assumptions is Castellan as HQ so Purifers can be troops as well ;D

Stirke Force:
Base 1 Attacks
Strike Squad: 1 weapon per 5
10 pts more expensive on all gun weapons.
Teleport jump or DS...

Purifers : 20 pts greater than strike force, but IMHO well worth the difference.
Base 2 Attacks
2 Weapons per 5
10 pt reduction on all gun weapons.
Cool Cleansing Flame Psychic Power
5 pt reduction on daemonhammer or falchions

Well, each extra knight will run you more as well, and imo the biggest downfall is being forced to take Crowe to make them troops. I'm not a huge fan of pricey 1 wound non-IC models that actually give the opponent advantages (anyone who charges him gets Furious Charge). He also competes in a slot where you have MANY good choices, the loaded HQ Slot. 4 Special Character Grey Knights, the awesomeness of the Grand Master, Librarian and Brotherhood Champion, the special inquisitors (which at least Corteaz and Karamazov are pretty good) and the massive customization of the normal inquisitors make it a very crowded spot.
I'm not saying he isn't competitive, but I think there are better options.

GalaxyGames wrote:Q: Why would you take strike squads over purifers? Based on the PDF.

NOTE: Assumptions is Castellan as HQ so Purifers can be troops as well ;D

Stirke Force:
Base 1 Attacks
Strike Squad: 1 weapon per 5
10 pts more expensive on all gun weapons.
Teleport jump or DS...

Jump packs maybe?

For whomever was saying that every Grey Knight has a force weapon - this is misleading. The Brotherhood of Psykers rule makes clear that it is the whole unit of GKs that use a psychic power, so only one model per unit could use their weapon as a force weapon ("The unit counts as a singe psyker").

Additionally, while there is no "True Grit" rule, rumors have said from different sources that GKs stormbolters enable them +1 attack through some means, giving them the same benefit. So no loss there.

While I hate to jump on the "ZOMGZ" bandwagon, this codex seems horribly broken and poorly balanced, and the fluff is just atrocious teenaged garbage.

A little over 500 points for 10 GKs with jump packs that can teleport (which is a normal move, not a deep strike, FYI) 30 inches ("once," oh no), have two psycannons and eight stormbolters, 2++ saves for all ten models, stop deep striking within 12 inches, assault with a minimum 20 power weapon attacks (at I5 for an additional 50 points total), plus all the extra minor BS items and war gear they get on the side?

Two squads of that plus Mordrack and his boys at 1500 points. GG, don't even bother taking your models out of the case.

That's not even touching the henchman shenanigans. Coteaz and 12x6 meltagun warrior acolytes for around 900 in total. Throw some dedicated chimeras in there and finish with whatever extra units you want (3x Deep Striking Dreadknights sounds good). GG, why'd you try to play?

To find some humor here, who wants to take bets we'll see GKs suspiciously wearing Crimson Fist, Space Wolf, and Blood Angels livery, if this codex is the real article (which I fear it may well be...)?

And the orange monkeys are indeed specifically listed as one of the henchman selections too!

ph34r wrote:

If you are buying a lord commissar for his fighting power instead of his leadership you are a baddie. Stop whining.

Except he's still not exactly exceptional or by any means necessary in that capacity, the Inquisitors offer Stubborn to a unit as well, and he's by far the fightiest HQ IG have besides Straken & Yarrick. I'm not complaining about the Commissar, only that getting a decently fighty non-MEQ HQ for about the same cost as a Thousand Son with the options they have is a bit low.

Who cares? Lord commissars aren't fighting heroes. They're utility heroes.
Inquisitors have no utility, they are just crappy statline dudes who can take a wide variety of gear.

Oh noes! GK are too OP will totally wreck the game!


But really, it will be like any other army, with strengths and weaknesses. Seeing the models on paper is a lot different than when you see the models on the table. Besides we will only have to deal with GK being top of the heap for 6 months until the new necrons come out, right?

The problem is that now it feels like each codex is another in a line of one-upsmanship. It's like they each try to break more rules than the previous codex did. Going along the route that the codex creep is now, it's only a matter of time before the game completely cannibalizes itself.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:I like it for 1 thing:

Corteaz as a Rogue Trader.

Asuming that you have to Fill 2 troops slots(as opposed to just bringing at least 2 troops) Take 1 min unit of GK Termies, and 1 min Unit of PAGK; then fill the rest of your points with henchmen warbands(not necissarily optimized, but more for Rogue Trader Force - fluff reasons)

This mistaken idea that you can have unlimited Troops is still alive?

Why is it mistaken given the wording that we have?

Fafnir wrote:Going along the route that the MARINE/IMPERIAL codex creep is now, it's only a matter of time before the game completely cannibalizes itself.

Fix'd it for you, because the 5th ed Xenos codices are actually weak or balanced.

Neconilis wrote:Why is it mistaken given the wording that we have?

RAI version: Because they're Troop choices, and Troop choices are 2-6. If GW wanted them to be scoring and stay unlimited, they'd just make them scoring, not move them to Troops (see Sternguard.)

RAW version: The "do not take up a slot" text is in itself ineffectual, because "slot" is not a defined game term and is to my knowledge not used anywhere else ever. The proper term used in the rulebook and all codices for the little boxes on the FOC is "choice" or "selection." So by RAW, even without Coteaz all Henchmen count towards your Elites allowance.

Neconilis wrote:
Why is it mistaken given the wording that we have?

Because Coteaz's entry says "Henchmen are troops" not "Henchmen are troops that don't use up a force org slot"?

lord_blackfang wrote:

Neconilis wrote:Why is it mistaken given the wording that we have?

RAI version: Because they're Troop choices, and Troop choices are 2-6. If GW wanted them to be scoring and stay unlimited, they'd just make them scoring, not move them to Troops (see Sternguard.)

RAW version: The "do not take up a slot" text is in itself ineffectual, because "slot" is not a defined game term and is to my knowledge not used anywhere else ever. The proper term used in the rulebook and all codices for the little boxes on the FOC is "choice" or "selection." So by RAW, even without Coteaz all Henchmen count towards your Elites allowance.

FYI, I'm saving this description and posting it every time someone posts the Barrel-O-Monkeys or Chimspam-From-Hell lists.

Anyone who tries to field more than 6 henchmen groups with Corteaz is going to be beaten to death with a brick with this exact reason printed on it.

I think all you need to do to keep henchmen from being such a potentially devastating unit is limit the options a bit. For instance, only one Jokaero/meltagun/crusader for each 4 men in the squad. A lot of the costs are alright. That means that if you do have a unit with three meltaguns, you've gotta have a dozen men to do it. Keeps people from just making those potentially nightmarish 54 Jokaero lists and the like.

BuFFo wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Going along the route that the MARINE/IMPERIAL codex creep is now, it's only a matter of time before the game completely cannibalizes itself.

Fix'd it for you, because the 5th ed Xenos codices are actually weak or balanced.

Regardless, it can only take the game to a very dark place.

Brother SRM wrote:I think all you need to do to keep henchmen from being such a potentially devastating unit is limit the options a bit. For instance, only one Jokaero/meltagun/crusader for each 4 men in the squad. A lot of the costs are alright. That means that if you do have a unit with three meltaguns, you've gotta have a dozen men to do it. Keeps people from just making those potentially nightmarish 54 Jokaero lists and the like.

This is the long and short of it.

The COSTS are fine, the availability is the problem. Make Jokaero limited by the rest of the unit (e.g. for every 4 henchmen, 1 jokaero or something along those lines). Same with special weapons.

The razorback/Chimera spam would still be a problem, but at least you'd be scared of the box, not the contents.

To be honest, Coteaz is pseudo-broken even if he only allows those units to take Troops slots. Henchman Warbands are *incredibly* powerful and customizable, and only make sense for their costs given that you have to take a generally mediocre HQ to unlock them in the first place. The problem is that they are totally balanced as written given how restricted they are. Unrestricting them doesn't really work, and since Coteaz is a steal already (he would be worth it for his utility abilities even without the slot shift and unit unlock), he seems like an instant no-brainer. I was already planning on fielding him, since I hope to have an Inquisition-based army, but he should really cost 200+ points as written AND Troops slot Henchmen should be severely constrained.

Fafnir wrote:

BuFFo wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Going along the route that the MARINE/IMPERIAL codex creep is now, it's only a matter of time before the game completely cannibalizes itself.

Fix'd it for you, because the 5th ed Xenos codices are actually weak or balanced.

Regardless, it can only take the game to a very dark place.

I agree...

On topic, I reserve judgment for the GK when I am able to play against them for a bunch of games.

I have a fiarly large investment in the Inquisition (it IS my favourite part of 40k fluff), so I'll probably play a game or two first, but my hopes are not high.