Grey Knight Codex pdf

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**ChrisWWII**

I'm seriously hoping you're right, and this leak is old enough that there were some serious changes. Especially with points costs....

I don't think we'll be seeing an escape from the fluff though.

**ColdSadHungry**

@ Lunarman

no they didn't but their weapons gave them Str 6

**lunarman**

And they were still called 'Force'?

That could be good news, perhaps these Nemesis Force swords arn't all 'Force Swords' as we know them.
If they're not power weapons, or they just allow Instant Death, then they're not nearly so powerful.

**H.B.M.C.**

Cerebrium wrote:This just sounds exactly like the hysteria before the Nid and IG 'dexes

Then you're not listening properly. There are a number of who care not one iota if the book is over or underpowered. We're more concerned with both the absurdity of the bad fanfic-level fluff, and the breaking of what made the GK's a unique force rather than just Codex: More Marines.

**ColdSadHungry**

Macok wrote:
ColdSadHungry wrote:Admittedly, the henchmen do seem too cheap atm but I doubt you'll all of a sudden see hundreds of players dropping whatever army they currently play to go for =I=. Also, there are different types of inquisitor - nothing much about that in the leaked codex but I bet that the henchmen you can take are restricted by what type of Inquisitor you take, whether, Ordos, Malleus or Xenos. There has to be some sort of restriction because right now, the =I= side of it does look broken and I'm sure that even GW can see that. They may get things wrong but they can't be that thick to think it's not broken.

I agree with the later, but the first part is just being naive. Everybody playing Space Wolves wants to play drunken, Viking, magic-hating, close combat monsters. That's why you don't see SW missile spam and psykers at all..

Yeah, but SW are space marines. They look cool. the =I= henchmen will probably be a much uglier, harder to paint bunch. I don't see tonnes of people dropping their space marines to go out and buy an army made up of arco flagellants, servitors and daemonhosts etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

lunarman wrote:And they were still called 'Force'?

That could be good news, perhaps these Nemesis Force swords arn't all 'Force Swords' as we know them.
If they're not power weapons, or they just allow Instant Death, then they're not nearly so powerful.

Yeah, they had nemesis force weapons. PAGK were just normal str6 weapons. Terminators had power weapons and Grand masters had force weapons.

**ChrisWWII**

ColdSadHungry wrote:Yeah, but SW are space marines. They look cool. the =I= henchmen will probably be a much uglier, harder to paint bunch. I don't see tonnes of people dropping their space marines to go out and buy an army made up of arco flagellants, servitors and daemonhosts etc.

No doubt, but since when has a WAAC player cared about that? No doubt it'll be harder to turn their Ultramarines into Inquisitorial Henchmen, but I don't doubt for a minute that Inquisition will be a competitive army, and will likely see significant play. And while Space Marine players couldn't switch , IG players will just be drowning in infantry models and Chimeras they could use/convert to represent Inquisitorial Henchmen.

**Mr Hyena**

ColdSadHungry wrote:Ok, so, bearing in mind that this is codex: Grey Knights, lets look at a GK strike squad - the regular PAGK squad;

For 10 models, including the Justicar, you will pay 200 points.

Before, this would have cost 275 points but now, you get 1 less BS, -2 str, no fearless, no True Grit. You couldn't be pinned in Codex; Daemonhunters either.

If you want to give them all the Nemesis Force halberd (which is what all existing GK players will be forced to do at first because all PAGK come with them), it's an extra 50 points for the whole squad making it 250 so you get +1 Initiative. -5 points actually as existing Justicars have the swords annoyingly but assume a full squad of halberds.

So, for 25 points less than the current codex, you get -1BS, -2Str, no fearless, no true grit and I'm assuming, you can be pinned.

You do, however, get +1I, frag, krak and psyk-out grenades, psychic powers and ATSKNF. You can give them way more wargear options but they cost - warding staves are an extra 25 points per model. Personal teleporters are an extra 6 per model so let's say you take those - add 60 points on to your 250 and you get 310 points. As you can see, the cost is beginning to creep up.

So, for all of the 'GK are too cheap' people, I disagree. You'd be going up above 400 points if they all had personal teleporters and warding staves. Unupgraded PAGK are not better than current ones - perhaps in some ways yes but in other ways no so they roughly balance out. Grey Knights are going to be just as difficult to win with as they are now because they WILL have a very low model count because they are potentially more expensive than they are now - a lot more expensive.

Now we come on to the henchmen. How many GREY KNIGHT players are going to all of a sudden want to play =I=? One or two to try it out, sure, but if you like GK, then you'll be looking at GK before henchmen. Most GK players will probably take a couple of henchmen squads - they'll probably have to for reliable anti tank unless you want to rely on rending ( I don't).

Admittedly, the henchmen do seem too cheap atm but I doubt you'll all of a sudden see hundreds of players dropping whatever army they currently play to go for =I=. Also, there are different types of inquisitor - nothing much about that in the leaked codex but I bet that the henchmen you can take are restricted by what type of Inquisitor you take, whether, Ordos, Malleus or Xenos. There has to be some sort of restriction because right now, the =I= side of it does look broken and I'm sure that even GW can see that. They may get things wrong but they can't be that thick to think it's not broken.

Either way, if you come up against a GK player, you'll have a small force to worry about. If they all have warding staves, they'll be hard to kill but their numbers will be even smaller. Yes, they will be more difficult to beat than they are now but that's only fair since they are incredibly underpowered as things stand. If you come up against a =I= army, I'm betting that there will be more restrictions on it then than there are as of today.

Just as long as =I= players don't need to take Grey Knights (unless its a Ordo Malleus army or something). Then I wouldn't mind more restrictions.

**Cerebrium**

Whatever, I'm just gonna look at the advantages of other things until the codex actually comes out.

All the assassins look great! I'll miss Bio-meltdown on Eversors, but what they've done with Vindicares more than makes up for it. 8BS is far more fitting for a vindicare than the previous BS5.

Culexus will be hilarious to drop into a Farseer/Warlock group. Will be great for fighting other GK players too.

Callidus are unchanged bar the stat changes, meaning they still have that sweet entry system (inflicting hits on a unit and appearing next to it.)

**ColdSadHungry**

Interestingly, under the ATSKNF entry, it states:

'Units which are not entirely formed of Grey Knights are still subject to this rule, providing that the unit contains at least one Grey Knight.'

Unless I've missed something, where has it been stated that you can take a mix of GK and non GK in the same unit? Maybe it's just the wording but saying units not ENTIRELY formed of grey knights suggests that you can mix in GK with something else.

**lunarman**

I can't see where it says Callidus can assault on the turn they appear though. Which seems odd.

**Commander Endova**

ColdSadHungry wrote:Interestingly, under the ATSKNF entry, it states:

'Units which are not entirely formed of Grey Knights are still subject to this rule, providing that the unit contains at least one Grey Knight.'

Unless I've missed something, where has it been stated that you can take a mix of GK and non GK in the same unit? Maybe it's just the wording but saying units not ENTIRELY formed of grey knights suggests that you can mix in GK with something else.

Well for example, Inquisitors are Independent characters, so you could add one to a Strike Squad, and Grand Masters are IC's and thus can be added to Henchman squads.

**ColdSadHungry**

Ah, yeah, I'd got it in my mind that the codex was going to let you take a unit of henchmen with a GK or two lol.

**I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly**

I agree with the several people who've hoped that we see some points and rules changes between this pdf and the finalised codex. I think some of these units are definitely underpriced. But I expect to think that (just not to this extent) with every new codex.

What really bothers me about this pdf is how involved and 'f you' some of these rules are. I think if you want to design rules for a powerful unit, it should be done with elegance. Simple rules, USRs and statistic changes, etc. Not a bazillion unique weapons and rules. And too many of the special rules are things that break the normal abilities and limitations of units. Like the psychic vehicles. A major part of how vehicles work is that you can stun them and move on. Extra armour is rightly used nowadays as a possible failsafe against this on the most valuable transports. Grey knights now just have to pass a 17/18 chance to ignore all of those effects.

Biggest rules cluster"£$%: the henchmen entry. We are going to see some complex-unit armies, with 20 minutes of book-keeping and writing down jokaero weapons upgrades, before the game begins. Why would they make such a customisable unit freely available? Do these designers not know that there are hordes of people online waiting to find out how to break these rules?

Anyway, GW obviously learns very little about how to design armies with clear rules and few loopholes/power imbalances.

And the background, my god!? If their baddest mofo is trapped in hell and has only popped out once, why is he going to be taking the field against tau and orks every 15 minutes!? And one of their sergeants has the power of resurrection? And they're just accepting that?

Grey knights really should have stayed as an elite terminator unit only taken against chaos IMO. This book will seriously be a pain to play against if this is the more-or-less final version.

**Homer S**

Did anyone notice that Razorbacks are more expensive but are missing the extra rules?

Also, are the N Dreadknights the Knights that were in Mechanicum? They were my favorite part of that book.

Homer

**M'Kachen's Nemesis**

No, the Knights in Mechanicum were Paladin Knights but not the new Paladins, small, one man versions of Titans (I bet this is just getting even more confusing...).

Just look this up:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights

But with Inquisitores, Henchmen, Techmarines and Dreadknights you could make some kind of Mechanicum army...

**Homer S**

M'Kachen's Nemesis wrote:No, the Knights in Mechanicum were Paladin Knights but not the new Paladins, small, one man versions of Titans (I bet this is just getting even more confusing...).

Just look this up:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights

But with Inquisitores, Henchmen, Techmarines and Dreadknights you could make some kind of Mechanicum army...

So they are scaled down versions. NDknight is to Paladin Knight as Warhound is to Reaver?

Homer

**Mr Hyena**

Biggest rules cluster"£$%: the henchmen entry. We are going to see some complex-unit armies, with 20 minutes of book-keeping and writing down jokaero weapons upgrades, before the game begins. Why would they make such a customisable unit freely available? Do these designers not know that there are hordes of people online waiting to find out how to break these rules?

Well it does reflect how a real Inquisition army would be.

But the problem stems from not having Inquisitorial Storm Trooper squads available as a seperate squad. (with a slight buff than their last incarnation)

**Requin**

Cerebrium wrote:
Callidus are unchanged bar the stat changes, meaning they still have that sweet entry system (inflicting hits on a unit and appearing next to it.)

Not so much Callidus lost:

- Assaulting on the the turn it comes in
- Ignoring armor and invulns
- A Word In Your

Ear

But gained

+Showing up and getting 1d6 str 4 ap 2 hits
+Instant death close combat attacks

It feel like trading the fun parts that added character (A Word In Your Ear) for a largely unnecessary stat boost.

**I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly**

Homer S wrote:
M'Kachen's Nemesis wrote:No, the Knights in Mechanicum were Paladin Knights but not the new Paladins, small, one man versions of Titans (I bet this is just getting even more confusing...).

Just look this up:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights

But with Inquisitores, Henchmen, Techmarines and Dreadknights you could make some kind of Mechanicum army...

So they are scaled down versions. NDknight is to Paladin Knight as Warhound is to Reaver?

Homer

No, Titans are controlled by the mechanicus and go (biggest to smallest) Emperor - Warlord - Reaver - Warhound - Knight. Knights (sometimes called Knight Paladins or Knight Titans) aren't really 'proper' titans, I believe they are part of a seperate chain of command, but they're still adeptus mechanicus.

Nemesis Dreadknights are new and never-before-seen, are only for Grey Knights, and have no relationship to anything else in the WH40k universe.

Mr Hyena, the rules are an excellent way of representing a complex, varied unit in an ideal world. But Wh40k players being what they are, I just know we're going to start seeing some new powerful lists based on unlimited numbers of complex henchman units, controlled more by what's effective than a cool modelling idea. And more than 1 henchman unit in an army is going to be very confusing for the opposing player, once you start getting into the special rules and random bonuses.

**ductvader**

So I just ran an all ward stave army...there's no way they are power weapons and a 2+ invulnerable...its just...impossible...it only makes sense to be a 2+ invuln for its cost and then your rank determines if it has power weapon abilities like the old book...that makes more sense to me...I can't really say because I dont have that section...but power weapon plus a 2+...the game just broke...i took 41 guys and lost six while tabling my opponent and i didnt even count them as power weapons...just in case...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Nemesis Dreadknights are new and never-before-seen, are only for Grey Knights, and have no relationship to anything else in the WH40k universe.

Besides the fact that they were most definitely given to the Grey Knights by the Mechanicus because the Grey Knights are the only ones the Mechanicus trust with such powerful technology.

**Homer S**

Ok,

If this lasts, GKs can field a company of terminators. Best yet.

Gold ->Grey Knights (102)

HQ: Termi Hero with 10 Termies, Termi Hero
Elites: 30 Termies
Troops: 60 Termies

Silver -> Space Wolves (62)
HQ: Termi Hero x 2
Troops: 60 Termies

Bronze - > Deathwing (47)
HQ: Termi Hero x 2
Elites: 15
Troops: 30

So the army that is renowned for termies is dead last, well third anyway. Thanks GW.

Homer

**ductvader**

ColdSadHungry wrote:Interestingly, under the ATSKNF entry, it states:

'Units which are not entirely formed of Grey Knights are still subject to this rule, providing that the unit contains at least one Grey Knight.'

This is just so you don't have Stubborn ATSKNF GKs or Henchmen. However you can have Stubborn Fearless Purifiers.

**Homer S**

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:No, Titans are controlled by the mechanicus and go (biggest to smallest) Emperor - Warlord - Reaver - Warhound - Knight. Knights (sometimes called Knight Paladins or Knight Titans) aren't really 'proper' titans, I believe they are part of a seperate chain of command, but they're still adeptus mechanicus.

Nemesis Dreadknights are new and never-before-seen, are only for Grey Knights, and have no relationship to anything else in the WH40k universe.

OK, I think my analogy is still valid. The NDKs are suits the GKs pilot, like a proper Knight, just less capable and with smaller weapons. Still darn cool. I'm picturing three of them and three Wraithlords battling a pack of Greater Daemons. It would look excellent anyway.

Homer

**ductvader**

Weren't there really old scout titans?...might be comparable to these...

Good image...Not just a pack though...a horde of greater daemons...

**VoidAngel**

Wait. The costs are going to be different (more sane) and some of the weirdness will be clarified if not removed. I can't see this thing actually hitting the shelves as is.

**puma713**

pixelpusher wrote: it's OLD

pixelpusher wrote:was made 2011-01-10

pixelpusher wrote:very very old

It's a month and 9 days. . .

**pixelpusher**

Yes, a lot can happen in the final few days before the printers deadline. It's usually when people start thinking properly about the thing that's going to be printed and make a ton of corrections. Ask me how I know… -.-

Now if it was a PDF that came straight out of the layout department with cropmarks and such you could be pretty sure that it's pretty recent. This... I wouldn't bet on it and sure not try to fool myself that the stuff in it is correct. That is until the fat lady sings.

I don't mean to pee on your parade. It could of course be that this is what stuff looks like at GW just before it goes away to the printer. But it sure does look like most of the "for review & corrections" stuff I do weeks or months before the text and artwork deadline.

**Kommissar Kel**

I like it for 1 thing:

Corteaz as a Rogue Trader.

Asuming that you have to Fill 2 troops slots(as opposed to just bringing at least 2 troops) Take 1 min unit of GK Termies, and 1 min Unit of PAGK; then fill the rest of your points with henchmen warbands(not necissarily optimized, but more for Rogue Trader Force - fluff reasons)

**lord_blackfang**

Kommissar Kel wrote:I like it for 1 thing:

Corteaz as a Rogue Trader.

Asuming that you have to Fill 2 troops slots(as opposed to just bringing at least 2 troops) Take 1 min unit of GK Termies, and 1 min Unit of PAGK; then fill the rest of your points with henchmen warbands(not necissarily optimized, but more for Rogue Trader Force - fluff reasons)

This mistaken idea that you can have unlimited Troops is still alive?

**rdlb**

Two things are bothering me about this discussion.

First, stop ragging on the Mods. They are just covering their ass by playing the thought police. I'm sure they love this just as much as the rest of us. It's like guerilla warfare. You deny the GW lawyers a target. "Well we told them..."

Second, I'm glad GW doesn't take into account TFG when making complex rule sets that can be really fun or really exploited. I'd rather be able to take a motley crue of henchman than have my options limited. So what if some guy makes it a headache. Don't play him. I think there are some really exciting army possibilities with the henchman even if they end up being twice the price.

Just imagine a techmarine and two Joakero blasting away at the enemy as a wall of crusaders holds off the advancing hordes. AWESOME!!