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I really do not like this list. It's A) completely unelegant, with a hideous mess of special rules and exceptions, and B) the points costs seem to be troubling.

I doubt it's a fake, given the format and for the same reason, I'm afraid it's from very late in the Dev process, so this is what we will get. Well, screw that.

The PDF version of the codex that's floating around is very overtly non-final.

Fetterkey wrote:The PDF version of the codex that's floating around is very overtly non-final.

Anything with notes jotted on it is probably months old. Maybe it is a good fake?

rdlb wrote:I'm worried that there will be no new henchmen kits, only grey knights and characters, which will make awesome units like the crusader tarpit very costly in $$$$.

And GW wouldn't want that because?

The plastic kits for the first wave are both kinds of Grey Knights, Terminators, and the dreadknight. I think henchmen are too broad a unit to really make a single plastic kit for. Oh how I would absolutely ADORE a henchmen kit, but I don't see it happening. Boxes of 10 plastic Crusaders, 10 plastic Jokaero, 10 plastic whatevers, aren't going to happen anytime soon. Too niche. I can definitely see a handful of blisters coming around for henchmen though; it's the kind of unit where they can just release a wacky and random model whenever the hell they feel like it and it'll be appreciated.

rdlb wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The PDF version of the codex that's floating around is very overtly non-final.

Anything with notes jotted on it is probably months old. Maybe it is a good fake?

Doubt it. Not with the amount of fluff that's in it. Every unit entry has its fluff written out. Dreadknights, Draigo, etc.

And it is in codex-style font on codex-style paper. From what I understand, fakes in the past have been Word documents.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I really do not like this list. It's A) completely unelegant, with a hideous mess of special rules and exceptions

Horrific, isn't it?

That was my initial impression when reading through it the first time. Every new unit has some sort of fancy special rule of psychic power and the options are all over the place. Worse... it didn't feel like a GK Codex. If GK's are just regular Marines w/Aegis and a fancy sword, then what's the point?

Frazzled wrote:Alrighty: Moderator Frazzled says:
No points cost listing.
No links to where you can download it.
No detailed listing of actual language from the codex.
We thank you for your compliance citizen.

Jesus Christ, it's not high school in here. I don't understand the "thought police" vibe I'm getting here.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I really do not like this list. It's A) completely unelegant, with a hideous mess of special rules and exceptions

Horrific, isn't it?

That was my initial impression when reading through it the first time. Every new unit has some sort of fancy special rule of psychic power and the options are all over the place. Worse... it didn't feel like a GK Codex. If GK's are just regular Marines w/Aegis and a fancy sword, then what's the point?

This is the logical end result of trying to expand what was initially one fancy unit into an entire Codex. Personally, I get the same feeling from the Daemons codex, but to a lesser degree. Everything feels... forced. Let this be a warning to those who want a Harlequins codex, or mono-god Chaos codices.

Balance-wise, it seems okay at first glance and without knowing the wargear.

lord_blackfang wrote:
Balance-wise, it seems okay at first glance and without knowing the wargear.

Did you take a good look at the Henchmen Warband?

Wow someone has a leaked copy of the book :p Never seen this info before

Guess we need like 30 threads discussing the same leaked info every few days when someone else "discovers it" lol

So is this all the same "end of the world! game breaking codex creep! The game will never be the same!" BS we got with IG and Tyranids (OMFG! doom and swarmlord makes me not want to play wa wa wa ..... pffft how things have changed) or is there really something to be worried about with how broken this codex looks?

From the sounds of it they made everything (even vehicles? how the hell does that work?) over the top good psykers, and thye made the points cost far too low. Im I getting the jist of whats broken with this codex and is it really that game changing?

Im thinking RoW on farseers will have a field day with this army. Dreadknights wont like DE poison weapons at all. Actually now that I think about it... this might actually be an army nids might not have problems beating (mass numbers, poison everywere, good psykic defence) but I guess well just have to see in the coming months.

The biggest issue methinks is going to be the Paladins and Henchmen Warband.

The Henchmen are seriously undercosted and over customizable. You can basically create just about any unit you want with it, and they can be made Troops. Want a unit with 5 lascannons in a Chimera for the cost of a Tac squad in a Rhino? 12 Plasma Gunners or 12 PW/SS dudes in a chimera for about the same price? Ten WS5 three attack S4 powerweapon wielding 5+invul guys for the cost of a Leman Russ? 5 Meltaguns in a Chimera for lbasically the cost of an AC/LC pred? All of that and a whole *lot* more is doable.

The Paladins on the other hand are 2W terminators that can basically be kitted with FNP, mastercrafted weapons, a rending S5 flamer that ignores invul saves, 2+/2++sv's on 5man squad for not significantly more than many other deathstar units with a character, being significantly scarier however and able to play wound allocation gimmicks. You basically need 360 BS4 Bolter shots to kill that unit (60 marines rapid firing for 3 turns), 108 BS4 Plasma gun shots, or 54 BS4 Meltagun shots, or 720 BS3 Lasgun shots.

The options in this Codex make my head spin. The Grey Knights already felt special, they didn't need all this... I don't even know what to call it. Does every unit really need a special rule or psychic power? it just feels like overcompensation.

As a CSM player I'm used to a very over simplified Codex. Grey Knights make my head hurt.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I really do not like this list. It's A) completely unelegant, with a hideous mess of special rules and exceptions

Horrific, isn't it?

That was my initial impression when reading through it the first time. Every new unit has some sort of fancy special rule of psychic power and the options are all over the place. Worse... it didn't feel like a GK Codex. If GK's are just regular Marines w/Aegis and a fancy sword, then what's the point?

That's exactly how I felt when I read the GK rumors thread. Without the WS 5, +2s NFW, and special rules, the Grey Knight lose what makes them feel like a unique unit. Although it's hard for me to feel sympathy. After hearing for years about how the Inquisition should be removed to make way for more grey space marines, I find Henchmen warband spam being the next leafblower to be delicious irony.

Although we still have to wait and see.

Wow... this just makes me feel dirty.

It'll hurt to retire my first and my favourite army, but with a codex like this... it's just overkill. I wanted my old and broken codex to be upgraded and fixed, but this is just disgustingly overkill.

rdlb wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The PDF version of the codex that's floating around is very overtly non-final.

Anything with notes jotted on it is probably months old. Maybe it is a good fake?

Probably not fake, but it's OLD. The PDF was made 2011-01-10. It could be a very very old revision copy that some fringe-person in the design process had for review or notes. Or a very recent copy of the rules that magically happened to appear on the internets.

It's at the point where the content is basically finished but the layout & editing are not yet complete.

Magister187 wrote:

Igenstilch wrote: quick summary... "piss & moan"

I'm curious how you think this army will have a bigger negative impact against nids then Dark Eldar did. That army seemed made to kill nids. This one just seems powerful, in line with the top tiers of armies. It should have no bigger effect on nids then it does on Eldar or Nilla marines.

Dark eldar have poison (which isnt that over abundant), you still get an armor save against, but not so wide spread with the power weapons. Grey knights seem to be able to give every unit and their groupies power weapons and some sort of (#)++ save. S3 can still cause a wound to T6, meaning these dirt cheap troops can tie up a nid MC for several rounds and very possibly kill them. Nids only sport 1 true invunrable save, the other two are condition dependent (in cc, or against shooting only, etc). Nid shooting and CC is still decent against dark eldar, with their low T and low armor values. IMHO nids vs dark eldar isnt that bad of a match up. It could be rough but still very doable.

Grey Knights seem to have an over abundance of power weapons and Invunrable saves.

Coteaz (master of the groupies) and the henchmen as represented in the leaked, can sport war gear that would make any space marine chapter cry (yea I got no frame of reference on this one, though later I will see how many 3++, power weapons, and meltas I can take in a legal marine list to compare). There needs to be some balanced limitations on the war gear these groupies can take (that and up the point cost).

I would complain about the other entries, but one thing at a time.

Would have liked to see a Valkyrie and vendetta option as fast or transports, an inquisitors personal Valkyrie seems very cool to me.

lord_blackfang wrote:This is the logical end result of trying to expand what was initially one fancy unit into an entire Codex. Personally, I get the same feeling from the Daemons codex, but to a lesser degree. Everything feels... forced. Let this be a warning to those who want a Harlequins codex, or mono-god Chaos codices.

Exactly so. Forced. I still remember the first 3E rules for Grey Knights. For one thing, they were only allowed vs Chaos armies, and only came in one flavor: Terminator. For another, they cost 80 points per model. And now we're getting Grey Knight Techmarines and Grey Knight Librarians and gods know what.

The Henchmen are the worst offender in my opinion, since as a unit they have an incredible amount of pointless verisimilitude and would devolve into a complete clusterfrag in actual use. 10 different statlines, almost every one of them with some kind of special rule (Banishers do X, Daemonhosts do Y, Jokaero (hah) do Z...). To add insult to injury, despite all this, many valid DH armies still got invalidated, and the rest are definitely looking strange (Radical Daemonhunter Barnstable is apparently good pals with Lord Draigo's crew).

And seriously, Lord Draigo? Whoever wrote his backstory is a slack-jawed yokel.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Exactly so. Forced. I still remember the first 3E rules for Grey Knights. For one thing, they were only allowed vs Chaos armies, and only came in one flavor: Terminator. For another, they cost 80 points per model. And now we're getting Grey Knight Techmarines and Grey Knight Librarians and gods know what.

For what it's worth, the original Grey Knight list did have Tech-Marines and whatnot.

Agamemnon2 wrote:The Henchmen are the worst offender in my opinion, since as a unit they have an incredible amount of pointless verisimilitude and would devolve into a complete clusterfrag in actual use. 10 different statlines, almost every one of them with some kind of special rule (Banishers do X, Daemonhosts do Y, Jokaero (hah) do Z...). To add insult to injury, despite all this, many valid DH armies still got invalidated, and the rest are definitely looking strange (Radical Daemonhunter Barnstable is apparently good pals with Lord Draigo's crew).

Ironically, if the GK Codex is the result of taking one unit and trying to expand it into many units, then the Henchman unit is the result of taking many units and trying to squash them into a single one. Weird, huh?

Agamemnon2 wrote:And seriously, Lord Draigo? Whoever wrote his backstory is a slack-jawed yokel.

All Hail Matt Ward! Maker of Infinite Mary Sues and Other Such Nonsense.

But seriously though, Draigo's fluff reads like author self-insertion fan fiction. Carved his name in Mortarion's heart? I mean really...

I still can't get over their basic troops.

In the Blood Angels codex, widely considered very cheesy. Assault marines cost 100 pts for 5.

For 55 points more, e.g 155 pts.
A grey knight strike squad has:
Init 5 all the time (not just on the charge), most likely str 5 all the time (hammerhand). Prevents deep striking around them. ALL POWER WEAPONS (and instant death if you didn't hammerhand) and a stormbolter.

Not to mention these guys move like jump infantry, can deep strike, have preferred enemy deamons and physic defense. However, Red Thirst and DoA seems equivalent to this.

I mean, not only can these guys lay out 20 bolter shots at 24 inches, they can also move and shoot 24 and assault afterwards. They strike at init 5 with all power weapons. Name a single troop unit that, for 100 points, could stand up to that.

With power weapons normally costing 15 points apiece I have no idea how they can justify this. Grey knights should be 30 points a man, not 20.

Wow, I just looked at the HQ section.

Inquisitors are at -1 WS and BS and no 5+ invul or the Aura ability compareed with a Lord Commissar, however have +1 init & carapace and another grenade type and significantly more (and much more powerful) options, are otherwise identical stat & wargear wise, and only 36% of what a Lord Commissar costs...

For the cost of Lord Commissar, you can an Inquisitor in Terminator armor with a Storm Bolter & Nemesis hammer and still have 5pts left over....

Mat Ward...what on earth are you thinking?

Vaktathi, you make the mistake of asserting that Matt Ward thinks. You'll need to prove that assertion I'm afraid.

Sadly, this is probably true.

I'm just aghast at what I'm reading in here. I mean some of the stuff seems fine, but christ on a crutch I just don't know what is going on with the rest.

It literally reads like a bad internet fan-dex. I'm hoping that's what it turns out to be, but I know better.

For even more WTF, compare Coteaz with Commissar Yarrick.

Ok, so, bearing in mind that this is codex: Grey Knights, lets look at a GK strike squad - the regular PAGK squad;

For 10 models, including the Justicar, you will pay 200 points.

Before, this would have cost 275 points but now, you get 1 less BS, -2 str, no fearless, no True Grit. You couldn't be pinned in Codex; Daemonhunters either.

If you want to give them all the Nemesis Force halberd (which is what all existing GK players will be forced to do at first because all PAGK come with them), it's an extra 50 points for the whole squad making it 250 so you get +1 Initiative. -5 points actually as existing Justicars have the swords annoyingly but assume a full squad of halberds.

So, for 25 points less than the current codex, you get -1BS, -2Str, no fearless, no true grit and I'm assuming, you can be pinned.

You do, however, get +1I, frag, krak and psyk-out grenades, psychic powers and ATSKNF. You can give them way more wargear options but they cost - warding staves are an extra 25 points per model. Personal teleporters are an extra 6 per model so let's say you take those - add 60 points on to your 250 and you get 310 points. As you can see, the cost is beginning to creep up.

So, for all of the 'GK are too cheap' people, I disagree. You'd be going up above 400 points if they all had personal teleporters and warding staves. Unupgraded PAGK are not better than current ones - perhaps in some ways yes but in other ways no so they roughly balance out. Grey Knights are going to be just as difficult to win with as they are now because they WILL have a very low model count because they are potentially more expensive than they are now - a lot more expensive.

Now we come on to the henchmen. How many GREY KNIGHT players are going to all of a sudden want to play =I=? One or two to try it out, sure, but if you like GK, then you'll be looking at GK before henchmen. Most GK players will probably take a couple of henchmen squads - they'll probably have to for reliable anti tank unless you want to rely on rending ( I don't).

Admittedly, the henchmen do seem too cheap atm but I doubt you'll all of a sudden see hundreds of players dropping whatever army they currently play to go for =I=. Also, there are different types of inquisitor - nothing much about that in the leaked codex but I bet that the henchmen you can take are restricted by what type of Inquisitor you take, whether, Ordos, Malleus or Xenos. There has to be some sort of restriction because right now, the =I= side of it does look broken and I'm sure that even GW can see that. They may get things wrong but they can't be that thick to think it's not broken.

Either way, if you come up against a GK player, you'll have a small force to worry about. If they all have warding staves, they'll be hard to kill but their numbers will be even smaller. Yes, they will be more difficult to beat than they are now but that's only fair since they are incredibly underpowered as things stand. If you come up against a =I= army, I'm betting that there will be more restrictions on it then than there are as of today.

Vaktathi wrote:Wow, I just looked at the HQ section.

Inquisitors are at -1 WS and BS and no 5+ invul or the Aura ability compareed with a Lord Commissar, however have +1 init & carapace and another grenade type and significantly more (and much more powerful) options, are otherwise identical stat & wargear wise, and only 36% of what a Lord Commissar costs...

For the cost of Lord Commissar, you can an Inquisitor in Terminator armor with a Storm Bolter & Nemesis hammer and still have 5pts left over....

Mat Ward...what on earth are you thinking?

I love how the mods freak out and step in to delete something like "A bolter costs 5 points" but then pretend that in magic legal land "A bolter is 86% the cost of a (insert thing everyone knows the price of here) plus 4 points" is somehow treated differently.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Admittedly, the henchmen do seem too cheap atm but I doubt you'll all of a sudden see hundreds of players dropping whatever army they currently play to go for =I=. Also, there are different types of inquisitor - nothing much about that in the leaked codex but I bet that the henchmen you can take are restricted by what type of Inquisitor you take, whether, Ordos, Malleus or Xenos. There has to be some sort of restriction because right now, the =I= side of it does look broken and I'm sure that even GW can see that. They may get things wrong but they can't be that thick to think it's not broken.

I agree with the later, but the first part is just being naive. Everybody playing Space Wolves wants to play drunken, Viking, magic-hating, close combat monsters. That's why you don't see SW missile spam and psykers at all..

ColdSadHungry:

In the previous codex did all Grey Knights come with force weapons?

This just sounds exactly like the hysteria before the Nid and IG 'dexes (anyone remember the s***storm pre-doom of Malan'tai?).

Bear in mind that A. This copy is more than a month old.
B. There's still more than a month to go until it's released.

So, as the famous posted decrees:

Keep calm and carry on.