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Cadaver wrote:

Games Workshop is not your bitch. They are not my bitch. If people can't accept how they run their business, then they and I are free to no longer support them. The difference is, when I choose to no longer support a company, I don't continue to frequent their fan forums complaining about each and every future decision they make. I move on with my life.

First of all, I admire you sticking to your opinions in the face of a landslide of contrary comments (regardless of whether I disagree or not).

Regarding your post, I don't think it's so easy to let go of something that you have spent a considerable amount of time and monetary investment in. I think that's the main beef people have - they have loved (or at least felt strongly about!) GW in the past, and to see the company being driven into the ground is painful.

The point is that the decisions being made now are running in the opposite direction of catering for the hobbyist, and done entirely at the behest of the shareholders. Saying 'they are a business they have to make money' is a fallacy - there are differing degrees of profit orientation, it shouldn't simply be a black and white picture of either making 100% profit, or being a joke in a business sense and the business folding. There are shades of grey in between, and it should be possible for GW to survive as a company while still giving people what they want.

Last year they made a sequence of generally unpopular decisions. The cutting of stores down to 1 man, the cutting of the development teams, the usual price hike. And what did they do with that money? A new marketing strategy, or some exciting new development? No, the money was instead used and given away as dividends for the shareholders. Most importantly, a certain Mr. Tom Kirby, who owns 6% of the company, pocketed a neat $600,000 as a result of that dividend payment. No doubt he will retire with a nice golden-handshake on the way out (he is 60 years old) and the company will be left in ruin behind him, having had all of it's development and growth cut back just to generate short term profits.

Cryonicleech wrote:

Worglock wrote:
Also more: Since you no longer support GW (by your own admission, having not played 40K in several years and only being involved n Specialist Games infrequently). Why are you here?

But... if you don't support them... why are you here?

Um. lolwut? I paint at my local GW store 2+ times a week. I've also (repeatedly) stated that while I don't particularly care for these last few things that they've done, those things don't affect me. MY current spending moratorium is due to family issues not GW issues. I've complimented GW on the things I've felt are good (like the news models) and let them have it on the things I've felt are bad.

It would do you well to realize that there is actually more to this than "The company White Knights" and "The guys that want to see GW burn". And yes, I realize you're trying to push a narrative and silence a voice that you don't agree with because this is the internet and it's like Sparta with words, but you should really try and not be bad at it.

The point is that the decisions being made now are running in the opposite direction of catering for the hobbyist, and done entirely at the behest of the shareholders. Saying 'they are a business they have to make money' is a fallacy - there are differing degrees of profit orientation, it shouldn't simply be a black and white picture of either making 100% profit, or being a joke in a business sense and the business folding. There are shades of grey in between, and it should be possible for GW to survive as a company while still giving people what they want.

Last year they made a sequence of generally unpopular decisions. The cutting of stores down to 1 man, the cutting of the development teams, the usual price hike. And what did they do with that money? A new marketing strategy, or some exciting new development? No, the money was instead used and given away as dividends for the shareholders. Most importantly, a certain Mr. Tom Kirby, who owns 6% of the company, pocketed a neat $600,000 as a result of that dividend payment. No doubt he will retire with a nice golden-handshake on the way out (he is 60 years old) and the company will be left in ruin behind him, having had all of it's development and growth cut back just to generate short term profits.

dariakus wrote:

The point is that the decisions being made now are running in the opposite direction of catering for the hobbyist, and done entirely at the behest of the shareholders. Saying 'they are a business they have to make money' is a fallacy - there are differing degrees of profit orientation, it shouldn't simply be a black and white picture of either making 100% profit, or being a joke in a business sense and the business folding. There are shades of grey in between, and it should be possible for GW to survive as a company while still giving people what they want.

Last year they made a sequence of generally unpopular decisions. The cutting of stores down to 1 man, the cutting of the development teams, the usual price hike. And what did they do with that money? A new marketing strategy, or some exciting new development? No, the money was instead used and given away as dividends for the shareholders. Most importantly, a certain Mr. Tom Kirby, who owns 6% of the company, pocketed a neat $600,000 as a result of that dividend payment. No doubt he will retire with a nice golden-handshake on the way out (he is 60 years old) and the company will be left in ruin behind him, having had all of it's development and growth cut back just to generate short term profits.

What's wrong with this, however, is that unless the people running the company *do not care about it*, then they will realize quite quickly that what's best for the company and the shareholders *is* what's best for the consumer. You can't alienate your customer base and grow a company. Economics don't work that way. Alienate your customers, sell less product, end up with lower earnings.

GW's financials, however, fly in the face of the claim that they're alienating their customers, as they're up again. What does this mean? It means they're probably doing what's right for the company--and the consumer--and we're just a small, but vocal group. Am I happy about the upcoming price hikes? No. But honestly? Food and gas prices have risen *orders of magnitude* faster than toy soldiers over the last few years. And despite what some people may think about the standard GW employee, they've got to eat and sleep just like the rest of us.

Is there a link to their financials anywhere? As a public company, there should be pretty detailed reports every quarter. The main website seems to be down, but they may not be listed there. I want to give them a more thorough look.

Ah, found it: http://investor.games-workshop.com/

I'll be reading for a bit.

Worglock wrote:And yes, I realize you're trying to push a narrative and silence a voice that you don't agree with because this is the internet and it's like Sparta with words, but you should really try and not be bad at it.

But... I haven't disagreed with you. It just seemed like you didn't really support GW if you haven't bought a lot. Sorry if I misinterpreted that, but I've hardly done anything inflammatory. You need to relax, not every poster here is out to get you, I actually agree with you on some points.

Okay, so in the January '11 interim report, licensing profits were only 550k out of a total profit of 24,505k. This covers the period from 5/2010 - 11/2010.

Licensing wasn't a huge part of their bottom line at all. It's barely 2%. And that was down from the previous year, when it was nearly 1,000k.

Compared to the same 6 month period last year, however, sales are stagnant, and costs are up on the operations side of things, as their profits for the same 6 month period are way down.

The problem that I have at the moment is less the fact that there's yet another price hike, but the fact that there's quite a few business decisions being made at the same time that are just simply bad, bad, bad.

Price hike? Ok, whatever. It's annoying, but still, we can live with it to a certain extent. We know they do it all the time, so we'll just have to grit our hobbyist teeth and bear it for now.

Changing to resin? Cool! Easier conversions. Except that it's being done alongside a second price hike on all of those models that are being converted from metal, on top of the first price hike on the rest of the range that isn't resin. Ok, well, that sucks, but maybe it'll go down after a bit once they sell enough (wishful thinking, but one can hope. Maybe.)

And then there's the cutting off of Maelstrom and other UK-based stores shipping outside the EU. That, to me, is the biggest offense out of all of this, and the one that actually makes me stop and say, "This has gotten out of hand." By severing the ability for UK based discount sites to sell outside the UK/EU, they've killed off a cheap and viable way for gamers to get the miniatures they want at a decent enough price. That, combined with the years-ago decision to kill the ability of using shopping carts at online stores that sell their products, is a smack in the face of the consumer. Say what you will about them doing what's right for the company, but in this case it most certainly does not mean that they are doing the right thing for the consumer. When was the last time you heard of a sale at a Games Workshop store, or on their website? The last time they've given their customers any reason to stay loyal to them? They've done nothing but say, "Thanks for being a loyal customer! In fact, you're so loyal, we'll make sure you pay even more for your minis, and have a more difficult time getting them as well!"

Do they have costs they need to use the money for? Of course. Is their research and development that needs to be payed for when it comes to new minis and rules? Absolutely. But that doesn't remove the fact that they're treating their customers as supremely disposable, when the truth is that in this economic environment, they are the exact opposite. Do everything you can to lure them in and keep them, not drive them away and prevent them from ever getting your products. Which is exactly what they're doing, and it boggles the mind.

Worglock wrote:You do realize there's a price increase coming for plastics too right? Like Grave Guard going from $33 to 41.25 (US) right? You do realize that's an almost 25% price increase right? If you went and did some "fact checking". you'd realize that it's a bit more than "some metal models".

Also: you mad? You sound mad.

Also more: Since you no longer support GW (by your own admission, having not played 40K in several years and only being involved n Specialist Games infrequently). Why are you here?

also lots: Neil who? Oh him, the guy that hasn't had a good book in awhile.

I'm not aware of a price increase for one fantasy kit, no. I don't play fantasy and it's not relevant to me or this thread. The pricing I referenced is directly related to this thread and most increases were $2-3 more for character models most people would only need one of, a lot more had no increase in price at all. Not exactly a budget shattering increase.

No, I'm not mad at all. It's called a discussion. I'm offering my opinion on the matter and raising points I think are relevant to said discussion. If the best you can add to the discussion is trite internet phrases in response, you're wasting both your time and my time by responding. Or would it be more appropriate to respond in kind and say, "obvious troll is obvious"?

Actually, as I said, I play Specialist games frequently, not infrequently. I'm glad you're paying attention. Since you ask why I'm here, I could raise the same question to you, as you admitted you haven't spend much either. But to answer your question, I'm here because Dakka has the most dedicated Specialist Games contributions anywhere online. There are dozens of fantastic P&M blogs here which I follow and comment on frequently as well as post my own stuff. Just because I don't play 40k doesn't mean I'm not active in other areas that appeal to me. I'd say that's far more productive than complaining in rumors threads constantly.

That's nice you glossed over the entire link with nothing but a jab at the quality of the author's recent work rather than actually responding to the point he brought up in his post. I'm actually not a Neil Gaiman fan, in-so-much as I haven't read enough of his stuff to have formed an opinion on his work one way or another. His point, however, is quite appropriate, in my opinion. If you don't want to address the reason I linked that and simply bash the author's recent work, it really makes no difference to me.

Pacific wrote:First of all, I admire you sticking to your opinions in the face of a landslide of contrary comments (regardless of whether I disagree or not).

Regarding your post, I don't think it's so easy to let go of something that you have spent a considerable amount of time and monetary investment in. I think that's the main beef people have - they have loved (or at least felt strongly about!) GW in the past, and to see the company being driven into the ground is painful.

The point is that the decisions being made now are running in the opposite direction of catering for the hobbyist, and done entirely at the behest of the shareholders. Saying 'they are a business they have to make money' is a fallacy - there are differing degrees of profit orientation, it shouldn't simply be a black and white picture of either making 100% profit, or being a joke in a business sense and the business folding. There are shades of grey in between, and it should be possible for GW to survive as a company while still giving people what they want.

Last year they made a sequence of generally unpopular decisions. The cutting of stores down to 1 man, the cutting of the development teams, the usual price hike. And what did they do with that money? A new marketing strategy, or some exciting new development? No, the money was instead used and given away as dividends for the shareholders. Most importantly, a certain Mr. Tom Kirby, who owns 6% of the company, pocketed a neat $600,000 as a result of that dividend payment. No doubt he will retire with a nice golden-handshake on the way out (he is 60 years old) and the company will be left in ruin behind him, having had all of it's development and growth cut back just to generate short term profits.

Who says you have to lose the stuff you've already invested in when GW releases something new? Sure, with a new codex some rules and units might change, but I'd be hard pressed for anyone to compare it to the changes I had playing a Death Guard list with the latest Chaos codex. Most people don't have entire codex options removed wholesale. Yet, rather than complain about it, I adapted, I worked with what was available and played my Death Guard with that book for 2 years until I left the hobby for a bit. I sold the army to a private collector for a handsome amount and moved on. I'll probably be back for the next codex, if I have the time, but it's hard to get friends together for gaming these days with wives and mortgages and all the other stupid crap you have to deal with when you start getting older.

GW is not being driven into the ground, as much as people like to claim it is. There is always new blood, and there is always the old blood saying how the game is changing and GW is abandoning their core fanbase. I have heard the same argument for 15 years. People leave, new people come in, some people stick around and get way too bitter about a game of toy soldiers. That said, I do think there are plenty of things they could do to add more to the hobby side. I certainly won't disagree there.

The thing is, regardless of what they do business wise, you can't please everyone. You focus more on hobby stuff and the WAAC guys will bitch about the rules not being tighter. You put out a new codex and people complain it's too different. Don't change it enough and people complain not enough was added, or they raped the feel of the army. Hell, it took 5 years of bitching about Gav Thorpe before ruining the chaos codex before Allessio Cavatore came out and point blank said those were his decisions. That's the thing, people are so clueless as to even which people are making the decisions they criticize, yet are experts on the direction the company should take.

As for Tom Kirby, he's probably no different to every CEO on Earth. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but when a company is publicly traded, you can't count on the core spirit of the company to stay as it was when it was a few dudes hanging around writing this crazy ass science fantasy game that looked like Tolkien's acid trip.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2010/2009-10_FinalFullYearReport.pdf

Some good stuff in here, too. I honestly don't see anything wrong here, and that long term growth chart is quite telling. If they weren't doing what was best for the consumer, they wouldn't be growing.

Cadaver wrote:
I'm not aware of a price increase for one fantasy kit, no. I don't play fantasy and it's not relevant to me or this thread. The pricing I referenced is directly related to this thread and most increases were $2-3 more for character models most people would only need one of, a lot more had no increase in price at all. Not exactly a budget shattering increase.

I would just like to point out that more or less all the plastic kits have gotten price raises, and some have seriously been boned (Eldar Falcon, thanks to a 20% increase, I shall never have you... )

Nothing to say about the rest of your post though.

This hobby is getting a little too expensive for me..

dariakus wrote:http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2010/2009-10_FinalFullYearReport.pdf

Some good stuff in here, too. I honestly don't see anything wrong here, and that long term growth chart is quite telling. If they weren't doing what was best for the consumer, they wouldn't be growing.

We have had threads covering this (and other financial reports) in the past. The general conclusion was that if you dig a little deeper they aren't actually doing that well. Recently most of their gains have been the result of cost cutting (the stupid 1 man store policies etc) rather than an increase in sales, and in the long term that's not a sustainable strategy (basically there is only so much you can cut). In fact it clearly states that sales were down, with everywhere except the UK and the US falling. Btw the large jump in sales from 02 to 04 and the subsequent fall is largely a result of the Lord of the Rings bubble, which died off after the movies had all been released.

Honestly, I've NEVER understood how keeping those 1 man stores is a good idea at all. I'd much rather have them abolish those completely and sell through FLGS and the internet only, with MAYBE a Battle Bunker at their HQ in America and a few larger stores in the UK, where it's still possible to have 2- and 3-man stores. Between the cost of having to constantly find new retail space, training employees, and then moving all the stock out once the store inevitably shuts down, I can't see how they make any money from them at all.

You know what?

Take my extra £50 per army, i dont care, just don't disappear.

Powerguy wrote:
We have had threads covering this (and other financial reports) in the past. The general conclusion was that if you dig a little deeper they aren't actually doing that well. Recently most of their gains have been the result of cost cutting (the stupid 1 man store policies etc) rather than an increase in sales, and in the long term that's not a sustainable strategy (basically there is only so much you can cut). In fact it clearly states that sales were down, with everywhere except the UK and the US falling. Btw the large jump in sales from 02 to 04 and the subsequent fall is largely a result of the Lord of the Rings bubble, which died off after the movies had all been released.

But it also shows how silly people are to complain that GW prices are high because of the need to please shareholders. 2010 was the first year for some time they made a decent profit and managed to hand out dividends. Since as said, profits were largely because of cost cuttings, it does not seem probable it is sustainable.

Ajroo wrote:You know what?

Take my extra £50 per army, i dont care, just don't disappear.

Nice if you can afford the extra £50...

Swordwind wrote:

Cadaver wrote:
I'm not aware of a price increase for one fantasy kit, no. I don't play fantasy and it's not relevant to me or this thread. The pricing I referenced is directly related to this thread and most increases were $2-3 more for character models most people would only need one of, a lot more had no increase in price at all. Not exactly a budget shattering increase.

I would just like to point out that more or less all the plastic kits have gotten price raises, and some have seriously been boned (Eldar Falcon, thanks to a 20% increase, I shall never have you... )

Pretty sure he knows that, but since it is information that disqualifies his narrative, it's going to be ignored.

lol, I love all the "Why are you here?" bs...because apparently if you aren't a die-hard fan of GW and only GW then you have no business whatsoever being here on Dakka. There's no other reason to register at Dakka at all apparently.

At least that's what it looks like when you're watching this argument play out, anyway. "If you don't like GW's business practices then why are you here?" Unless I'm mistaken and you're asking why people are here in this thread and not here here, lol...

As for the topic, keeping it short and sweet: bs. Blister prices were fething stupid to begin with, they needed a decrease, and what did we get instead? Another excuse for a price increase and a laughable marketing ploy in the name of "Citadel Finecast". Guess we'll have to wait a week and see if it lives up to the name (god I'm getting tired of these stupid waste-of-time non-announcements telling me to come BACK to the website a week later to see the ACTUAL announcement...announcing announcements, the feth?), but I'm remaining cynical as ever.

It's been a couple years since I purchased anything from Forge World, but I wasn't too impressed by the quality of the crap I got then. Not sure if things have improved or not since then but like I said, I have no reason to believe these will be any better quality than the overpriced metal lumps we already had.

Guess that didn't turn out to be so short after all.

And yes I'm aware FW isn't GW but it's the only thing I have to go by. After seeing the list of prices posted earlier I sure as hell hope GW can do a better job with resin...

Ajroo wrote:You know what?

Take my extra £50 per army, i dont care, just don't disappear.

Just for saying that, they'll now charge you £100. Just because they can.

GW: We Just Don't Care.



Also, for all the "why are you here" whinging I done, I apologize. The more I read about GW's new attitude, the more I find myself browsing PP products...

So yes, this is actually an apology on the internet. This feels strange. Like a thousand fanboys screaming suddenly hushed.

The "why are you here?" argument is fatuous and insulting. Are new PP releases not also discussed here? Is not Infinity? Is not Cromlech, Reaper, MAS, etc? People who do not play GW games all the rights in the world to continue patronising this forum, and if you don't like it, perhaps it's you who should be leaving.

I hear Warseer is kinder to posters of your ilk.

Cerebrium wrote:

Ajroo wrote:You know what?

Take my extra £50 per army, i dont care, just don't disappear.

Just for saying that, they'll now charge you £100. Just because they can.

GW: We Just Don't Care.

I prefer: Games Workshop: Our prices discriminate, because we can't.

Oh, but they do discriminate. Ask any Aussie.

Grimtuff wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:

Ajroo wrote:You know what?

Take my extra £50 per army, i dont care, just don't disappear.

Just for saying that, they'll now charge you £100. Just because they can.

GW: We Just Don't Care.

I prefer: Games Workshop: Our prices discriminate, because we can't.

Or maybe: Games Workshop: Economics? What's that?

Cerebrium wrote:Oh, but they do discriminate. Ask any Aussie.

Via their stupid pricing, they can't come out and say it, that would be bad for busine... Oh, wait.

I don't think they'd be any less popular in Australia if they just released a video of Mat Ward stomping a kangaroo to death.

(Yay, stereotypes! )

lol...

"I Games Workshop! I KNOW ECONOMIC!"

I thought about posting on their Facebook page again...last time I did was when they posted something about Blood Bowl and I brought up the fact that they banned Blood Bowl from their stores. I got a few likes for that one.

Swordwind wrote:

Cadaver wrote:
I'm not aware of a price increase for one fantasy kit, no. I don't play fantasy and it's not relevant to me or this thread. The pricing I referenced is directly related to this thread and most increases were $2-3 more for character models most people would only need one of, a lot more had no increase in price at all. Not exactly a budget shattering increase.

I would just like to point out that more or less all the plastic kits have gotten price raises, and some have seriously been boned (Eldar Falcon, thanks to a 20% increase, I shall never have you... )

Nothing to say about the rest of your post though.

I had not noticed that thread until now. An overall price increase is a bit ridiculous. My point was a switch to finecast with a minimal increase wasn't a big deal. I was a little confused why people seemed so upset, but seeing the general price increase makes alot more sense.

Worglock wrote:Pretty sure he knows that, but since it is information that disqualifies his narrative, it's going to be ignored.

Nope, wasn't aware at the time. As much as it may blow you mind, I'm not some die-hard fanboy that supports anything GW does. However, just because I do sometimes - well support isn't even the right word - do not criticize GW's decisions alot of people would like to throw me in that category.

Look, price increases suck. I get it. But personally, I'm not going to get mad about it. Ultimately, this is a game, and I have better things to do with my time than support a company that drives me crazy or buy things I think are too expensive. I don't understand why people continue to support the company when they seem to have nothign but contempt for the company and the only thing keeping them around is the background. I used to buy every codex just for the background. But I stopped doing that when they went from $20 to $29. It just wasn't worth it anymore.

Sidstyler wrote:lol, I love all the "Why are you here?" bs...because apparently if you aren't a die-hard fan of GW and only GW then you have no business whatsoever being here on Dakka. There's no other reason to register at Dakka at all apparently.

At least that's what it looks like when you're watching this argument play out, anyway. "If you don't like GW's business practices then why are you here?" Unless I'm mistaken and you're asking why people are here in this thread and not here here, lol...

Yes, because it wasn't the GW critic who asked me why I was here. Yes, I did raise the question back to him as given the information he provided at the time it seemed a hypocritical question. There's a difference between asking why you participate in GW discussions and being on Dakka in general. I don't understand why people who seemingly despise GW stay so active in discussions regarding the company. I realize there are plenty of people who are just passionate, but there are also those who want GW to burn to the ground. Very dramatic stuff. I think really when it comes down to it people like this want attention more than anything else.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, GW, BURN TO THE GROUND!!!

When is the all-round price increase going to happen?

Agamemnon2 wrote:The "why are you here?" argument is fatuous and insulting. Are new PP releases not also discussed here? Is not Infinity? Is not Cromlech, Reaper, MAS, etc? People who do not play GW games all the rights in the world to continue patronising this forum, and if you don't like it, perhaps it's you who should be leaving.

I hear Warseer is kinder to posters of your ilk.

I agree, at least with the first sentence... and even if people dont play or buy anymore they are as much entitled to comment as anyone else, its a public forum and you dont need to have "credentials" to be a part of a debate here.