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Assuming the maniac manages to get within arm's reach, you mean?

Melissia wrote:Assuming the maniac manages to get within arm's reach, you mean?

Or has one hell of a throwing arm. Besides, a knife is meant for up close action and it is possible for someone to surprise the other. Knife cuts can also be more brutal than a bullet wound, all depends on force applied and all of those other factors. But like I said, weapons are not dangerous, its the people using them who are dangerous.

Yes, but a person with a gun can also surprise someone-- and from a greater distance.

Sadly, my knife was stolen by a d-bag I used to work with, was a rather nice and large (skirted the legal limit) pocket knife with a very sharp edge. Haven't gotten around to replacing it yet.

And if the guy can throw the knife, he can surprise someone from a distance as well.

Again, it all depends on the person holding the weapon. If the guy is a nice guy with a gun and a maniac with a knife comes up close, chances are the maniac is going to kill the nice guy because killing the maniac isn't something the nice guy is already considering.

halonachos wrote:And if the guy can throw the knife, he can surprise someone from a distance as well.

Very, very few people can lethally throw knives, and certainly not at the accuracy and reliability even cursory training with a gun can give.

Melissia wrote:

halonachos wrote:And if the guy can throw the knife, he can surprise someone from a distance as well.

Very, very few people can lethally throw knives, and certainly not at the accuracy and reliability even cursory training with a gun can give.

I know a fair few people who can throw knives quite effectively, to be honest. Most of them are Military, but still. I myself can nail a target ~15 feet, though not well enough to hit the body part I am aiming for (shoulder, instead of the ribcage, for instance).

Mind you, I have never had to actually use that skill in a non-safe situation, either.

Slarg232 wrote:I know a fair few people who can throw knives quite effectively, to be honest. Most of them are Military, but still. I myself can nail a target ~15 feet, though not well enough to hit the body part I am aiming for (shoulder, instead of the ribcage, for instance).

Mind you, I have never had to actually use that skill in a non-safe situation, either.

My grandfather has the uncanny ability to throw things like axes and hatchets with unerring accuracy...and the guy is 75 years old...

of course, the targets never move and are the diameter of a large tree stump...

Apparently he cant throw knives though, I asked him to try it...the two skills were further apart than I thought...

Right, I was referring to a combat situation.

Besides, where I am, throwing knives are illegal to carry license or no, while concealed handguns aren't FAR more likely to face someone with a knife or handgun than throwing knife, which requires a very specialized skill and is very easy to mess up, while not really having the same lethality as a defensive knife or a handgun.

Stormrider wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Sckitzo wrote:Also, I don't recommend the .357 Sig, ammo can be pricey and a PITA to find sometimes, unless your really want that caliber I suggest 9mm or .40, 45 would be fine and 10mm if your a masochist

The weapon's available in .357 SIG, .40S&W, and .45ACP. I think the ACP is probably most common and probably cheapest of these ammunition types, right?

Cheapest? Yes, but terrible for a carry weapon. The only reason militaries must use FMJ ammo is that hollow points are illegal to use under the Geneva Accords in wartime. They are terrible for CC. Use a Jacketed hollow point.

Err I wasn't implying she use practice ammo for self defense. That type of ammo is a whole other ball game, but chances are, and just a wild guess here, she is going to shoot far more rounds at paper then flesh.

And missed the part where 9mm wasn't listed, but as you can see, Sig is the most expensive of the ones listed, .40 the cheapest.

.40's tend to be a bit...snappy. Alot of people hate on them, I like mine though.
.45 is going to cause a lot of muzzle jump, if it were me, I'd go with the .40, maybe the .45 but not the .357 Sig.

That's me though.

And actually, we do (well I did) carry hollow points in the military, just only state side, same with using frangible ammo for people, state side only.

ETA

I do love how that Chiappa looks though, nice to see something new with wheel guns, haven't gotten to try one yet though.

And my buddy, who barely fires told me who got to shoot a K98 today, told him to send me some pictures, it's a 1942 Steyr, SS markings, vet bring back, with 100% matching numbers from what I can tell and it's in amazing shape, now I just gotta talk him into selling it to me...

halonachos wrote:
It has been statistically proven that ghosts will be more likely to pick up a gun and shoot someone, seriously statistically neither is more dangerous than the other until a person decides to touch it.

Or a cat...

halonachos wrote:
Guns and knives are equally dangerous, the gun in the hands of a careful and peaceful person is less dangerous than the knife in the hands of a crazed homicidal maniac.

You're not arguing against my point here.

Melissia wrote:

Da Boss wrote:One thing I've wondered (as handguns are rare where I come from)- where would you store the gun, if it's for personal protection?

Depends on if I'm at my home or out about in the city. In the city, I'd be obeying the oddly strict concealed carry laws that Texas has for handguns (but not shotguns or rifles, go figure). In my home, I'd probably have it on a case on the top shelf well out of reach of my bratty nephews, with a loaded magazine ready in case of someone breaking into my home, but not actually inserted into the gun as a precaution against the kids.

Welcome to the Big Leagues.

1. Whats your price point?
Under $1,000 but over $500
*Colt. I'm biased against Colts in that the ones I messed with were all older, to the point of rattling. Colts are the more expensive of this grouping but generally are high quality.
*Ruger. Heard very good things about their new 1911. Accuracy tests are good and buyer reviews are very strong.
*Springfield. Yea they have about 20 types of .45 acps.
*Remington came out with a full size 1911 recently. Reviews are moderate but the price point is better.
*S&W also has a good selection of .45ACP. A little higher on the pay scale but they've been making them for a awhile and like Springfield have everythying from GI models (basically WWI style) through competion versions.

Cheaper.
Rock Island. Good reviews in the below $500 range. I am sure there are others.

Higher end.
*Kimber. All the bells and whistles of higher end at a cheaper price. However quality has fallen off recently.
*STI. Made by Texans for Texans against Yankees (er uh...target). Primarily competition pistols but have some carry versions. The little double column VIP has better stats than a performance Glock G34. PLus they also have a double column line who's width is about the same as standard 1911.
*Sig Sauer. Germans making 1911s since, well since after GIs introduced it to them the hard way.
*Baer, Wilson, etc. You pay to play thouugh as these aint cheap.

2. What size?
*Full size. Thats the standard issue 35ounce to 40 ounce baby. Its, well full size. Not good for CCL, but go for home offense or competition. Least recoil (duh) and best accuracy.
*Commander size. generally a 3.5-4.0 inc barrel. Decent for CCl. Good recoil control and accuracy. Colt Commander (I think its Commander), STI's VIP, Kimber raptor Carry, etc. Lots of makers
*Officer size. Smallest. Generally 23-25 ounces. 3.0 inch barrel. These kick but surpise the out of a BG in a CCL situation. Kumber Ultra Carry, STI (Eclipse-I think), Sig Sauer (SIG SAUYAH!!!) Springfield etc. Not as big of a selection at this size.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rubiksnoob wrote:Joking aside, I would recommend a Ruger 9mm. Just your basic, nothing-fancy 9mm pistol. We've got one and it's easy to fire, not too big, and both the gun and ammo are relatively inexpensive. It's not really a looker, but it does the job, and that's what's important, right?





Ninja'd by alarmingrick!

Oh god no. The trigger on Ruger 9mm full size are crap and they refuse to fix it, even when they have the eminently superior Sr9c now.

A full size 1911 is dificult to conceal well unless you are a big dude.

I think it is important to find a shop with a range where you can test fire various models and calibers, no point in spending a few hundred bucks to find out that due to kick you can't put the full magazine into the perp fast. And make no mistake, you DO want to put the full magazine into someone if you have to pull the gun, no matter what caliber.

Look at the sights. Good low visibility sights (I like ones with tritium, like some of the Trijicon sights) are important. An obscenely high proportion of self defense shoots happen in the dark. The ability to get the front sight lined up fast is important.

I'm thinking of getting a Glock 36 as a conceal piece.

Knives are crap defense weapons. It is harder to stab a person than shoot them. Knives get stuck in clothes or rib cages or just don't do the damage quickly enough to stop a methed out crapbag from beating the snot out of you. It takes a long time to bleed out from even a fatal knife wound in most cases. Throwing your knife is asinine. You never throw away your weapon, and it only ever works in movies. Anyone that honestly thinks throwing knives are an effective form of defense or offense has never been in a real close in life or death fight.

halonachos wrote:And if the guy can throw the knife, he can surprise someone from a distance as well.

Again, it all depends on the person holding the weapon. If the guy is a nice guy with a gun and a maniac with a knife comes up close, chances are the maniac is going to kill the nice guy because killing the maniac isn't something the nice guy is already considering.

In your hypothetical: You're sitting at a table with your knife in your pocket. I am sitting at a table with an XDM in a kydex holster.
In the words of the immortal bard: call it friendo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptJake wrote:A full size 1911 is dificult to conceal well unless you are a big dude.

I think it is important to find a shop with a range where you can test fire various models and calibers, no point in spending a few hundred bucks to find out that due to kick you can't put the full magazine into the perp fast. And make no mistake, you DO want to put the full magazine into someone if you have to pull the gun, no matter what caliber.

Look at the sights. Good low visibility sights (I like ones with tritium, like some of the Trijicon sights) are important. An obscenely high proportion of self defense shoots happen in the dark. The ability to get the front sight lined up fast is important.

I'm thinking of getting a Glock 36 as a conceal piece.

Knives are crap defense weapons. It is harder to stab a person than shoot them. Knives get stuck in clothes or rib cages or just don't do the damage quickly enough to stop a methed out crapbag from beating the snot out of you. It takes a long time to bleed out from even a fatal knife wound in most cases. Throwing your knife is asinine. You never throw away your weapon, and it only ever works in movies. Anyone that honestly thinks throwing knives are an effective form of defense or offense has never been in a real close in life or death fight.

Glock 36 are good. I'd recommend in similar vein:
*XDM 3.8
*M&P carry
*Ruger SR9c
*Kimber/Springfield ultra carry
*Beretta Storm X4.

Frazzled wrote:Higher end.
*Sig Sauer. Germans making 1911s since, well since after GIs introduced it to them the hard way.

Oddly enough the shop near me has a SIG Sauer P250 for somewhere between 200-300 USD, which is cheaper than the prices I found for the Colt Government Model 01991. Looks to be a better size for concealed carry too. I need to go there and check to see if it's new (if so, yay?) or used (in which case I'd not want to risk any defects).

edit: ah, checked the site again... read the price wrong, it's 394, not 294. Still, that seems like a good price for a SIG if it's new. I'll have to go test fire it.

Used doesn't mean bad. Check it out, disassemble it, look at the barrel and slide, look for signs of abuse/misuse.

Often folks sell guns in very nice condition for various reasons.

1) That has to be used.
2) CptJake is right. A used firearm can be just fine. Especially right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia, PM me if you're really considering a CHL in Texas.

Melissia wrote:Because it's easier to concealed carry a handgun without getting in trouble than it is to carry around a shotgun and not get in trouble.

I don't really understand why someone would want to carry a concealed weapon of any type with them. IMO, it is more riskier to own a gun than not having one, because if you get into a dangerous situation, talking usually gets you off the hook. If you draw a weapon in a situation like this, you never know what the other guy has hidden in his pocket or under his clothes.

Melissia wrote:

halonachos wrote:And if the guy can throw the knife, he can surprise someone from a distance as well.

Very, very few people can lethally throw knives, and certainly not at the accuracy and reliability even cursory training with a gun can give.

A person not trained with a gun are more of a danger to themselves, a person who isn't trained with a knife can understand the concept fairly quickly.

Dogma, not arguing against your point. A gun and knife, as you have shown as well, are perfectly safe unless someone or something acts upon it.

@Frazzled, it depends, if you came out planning to kill someone sitting across from you then having a gun instead of a knife wouldn't change a thing. Its the character of the person that matters, not the gun of the knife itself. Also a steel blade can split a lead bullet, so if you want to mention training the guy trained with a knife so well that he can do so.

Melissia wrote:Because it's easier to concealed carry a handgun without getting in trouble than it is to carry around a shotgun and not get in trouble.

I sincerely hope you're going to get a permit if you're going to carry a concealed handgun.

If I was going for a handgun to easily conceal to get me out of a sticky situation I'd probably go with a .380. They're small enough to easily conceal and will still "get the job done" as it were.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Melissia wrote:Because it's easier to concealed carry a handgun without getting in trouble than it is to carry around a shotgun and not get in trouble.

I don't really understand why someone would want to carry a concealed weapon of any type with them. IMO, it is more riskier to own a gun than not having one, because if you get into a dangerous situation, talking usually gets you off the hook. If you draw a weapon in a situation like this, you never know what the other guy has hidden in his pocket or under his clothes.

From what I've heard and seen (Family being in law enforcement) The usual raff are cowards and thugs. The purpose of a concealed weapon is to provide an advantage to yourself that normal people don't have. I've never tried to talk down a mugger or a carjacker or a burglar but I don't think it would work out too well unless there is a gun in your hand as well. People like that only respect power, and if you show them you are in control of the situation because you have a gun pointed at them they are more likely to cooperate than coming at them with just words.

Ever seen security videos from convenient stores that get robbed? The thugs who come in usually have a weapon yes, but what you see more often than not is that the cashier also has a weapon and due to this fact, the criminal is scared away, his previously thought easy pick turning out to be much harder than he bargained for.

Also, you never know, the other guy might be just making his fingers into a gun shape in his pocket to try and intimidate you, come back with a real one and he'll probably bolt.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Melissia wrote:Because it's easier to concealed carry a handgun without getting in trouble than it is to carry around a shotgun and not get in trouble.

I don't really understand why someone would want to carry a concealed weapon of any type with them. IMO, it is more riskier to own a gun than not having one, because if you get into a dangerous situation, talking usually gets you off the hook. If you draw a weapon in a situation like this, you never know what the other guy has hidden in his pocket or under his clothes.

When the guy is desperate, drunk, or overall just not listening to common reason. A firearm can easily dissolve a situation and if you have a weapon drawn and aimed at a guy, they tend to get the point of 'hey I better go away.'. If they have anything in their pockets and decide to pull it out, you already have an edge over them.

Go with something small.

snub-nosed 44

'pocket pistol'

GAU-19 (small by 40k standards)

Yeh a colt or Kimner 1911 would be a great choice though ammo is going to hurt as .45 is some of the most expensive stuff out there. Other good choices are a gen 4 glock. They have a variety of available calibers and sizes and legendary reliability. I have one of each and currently carry my 1911 since I dont have a holster for the glock but the glock is great to shoot and holds 14 .45 rounds while the 1911 holds 8 or 9 (depending on the clip). What state would you be carrying in?

WARORK93 wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Melissia wrote:Because it's easier to concealed carry a handgun without getting in trouble than it is to carry around a shotgun and not get in trouble.

I don't really understand why someone would want to carry a concealed weapon of any type with them. IMO, it is more riskier to own a gun than not having one, because if you get into a dangerous situation, talking usually gets you off the hook. If you draw a weapon in a situation like this, you never know what the other guy has hidden in his pocket or under his clothes.

From what I've heard and seen (Family being in law enforcement) The usual raff are cowards and thugs. The purpose of a concealed weapon is to provide an advantage to yourself that normal people don't have. I've never tried to talk down a mugger or a carjacker or a burglar but I don't think it would work out too well unless there is a gun in your hand as well. People like that only respect power, and if you show them you are in control of the situation because you have a gun pointed at them they are more likely to cooperate than coming at them with just words.

Ever seen security videos from convenient stores that get robbed? The thugs who come in usually have a weapon yes, but what you see more often than not is that the cashier also has a weapon and due to this fact, the criminal is scared away, his previously thought easy pick turning out to be much harder than he bargained for.

Also, you never know, the other guy might be just making his fingers into a gun shape in his pocket to try and intimidate you, come back with a real one and he'll probably bolt.

Hmm, now that I think of it, you are probably right. The scare tactics work fine with just one person, I guess. But a whole gang of them? Not so sure...

keisukekun wrote: What state would you be carrying in?

I thought she lived in Houston, Texas.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

WARORK93 wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Melissia wrote:Because it's easier to concealed carry a handgun without getting in trouble than it is to carry around a shotgun and not get in trouble.

I don't really understand why someone would want to carry a concealed weapon of any type with them. IMO, it is more riskier to own a gun than not having one, because if you get into a dangerous situation, talking usually gets you off the hook. If you draw a weapon in a situation like this, you never know what the other guy has hidden in his pocket or under his clothes.

From what I've heard and seen (Family being in law enforcement) The usual raff are cowards and thugs. The purpose of a concealed weapon is to provide an advantage to yourself that normal people don't have. I've never tried to talk down a mugger or a carjacker or a burglar but I don't think it would work out too well unless there is a gun in your hand as well. People like that only respect power, and if you show them you are in control of the situation because you have a gun pointed at them they are more likely to cooperate than coming at them with just words.

Ever seen security videos from convenient stores that get robbed? The thugs who come in usually have a weapon yes, but what you see more often than not is that the cashier also has a weapon and due to this fact, the criminal is scared away, his previously thought easy pick turning out to be much harder than he bargained for.

Also, you never know, the other guy might be just making his fingers into a gun shape in his pocket to try and intimidate you, come back with a real one and he'll probably bolt.

Hmm, now that I think of it, you are probably right. The scare tactics work fine with just one person, I guess. But a whole gang of them? Not so sure...

If you find yourself in a situation where there is more than one opponent...well its hard to say...but if I were in that situation I would have to swallow my pride and run, run to a public place and possibly shout my head off, that alone would probably dissuade the guys chasing me from following, if not, keep running until either someone does something or they stop following you.

halonachos wrote:

A person not trained with a gun are more of a danger to themselves, a person who isn't trained with a knife can understand the concept fairly quickly.

Dogma, not arguing against your point. A gun and knife, as you have shown as well, are perfectly safe unless someone or something acts upon it.

@Frazzled, it depends, if you came out planning to kill someone sitting across from you then having a gun instead of a knife wouldn't change a thing. Its the character of the person that matters, not the gun of the knife itself. Also a steel blade can split a lead bullet, so if you want to mention training the guy trained with a knife so well that he can do so.

You've seen way too many movies. If (and that is a MIGHTY huge IF) a person could actually have a knife in the correct place to allow a bullet to strike the blade:
1. The split bullet still moves forward, just in more parts and a little slower.
2. The blade has been hit with a hell of a lot of force, no-one is holding onto it, and it will now be traveling the same direction the bullet was.
3. Not many people are just gonna pull the trigger one time.

The effective range of a knife is about 2/3rd the length of the user's arm. The effective range of the pistol will assuredly reach a bit further.

And again, a knife does not kill or even incapacitate an attacker quickly enough to assure the defender is not subject to harm/death. Knives get caught up in clothing, stuck in bone, etc.

I don't really understand why someone would want to carry a concealed weapon of any type with them. IMO, it is more riskier to own a gun than not having one

***Thats wrong. FBI statistics in the 90s denote 1MM+ events wherein weapons were "brandished" and stopped a crime.

because if you get into a dangerous situation, talking usually gets you off the hook.

***Also wrong. Else all those criminal statistics on rapes, murders, and robberies wouldn't be there. The stalker the Frazzled's have had to deal with would not be stopped by talking.

If you draw a weapon in a situation like this, you never know what the other guy has hidden in his pocket or under his clothes.

***If you draw in a situation like this, you need to meet criteria for reasonable self defense. If I have met the criteria for that as a valid legal defense, and he has not drawn something: 1). he must be a real bad mofo as generally it is required that I have a reasonable fear of death or imminent grave bodily harm (depending on jurisidiction); 2. he's a dead man.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:@Frazzled, it depends, if you came out planning to kill someone sitting across from you then having a gun instead of a knife wouldn't change a thing. Its the character of the person that matters, not the gun of the knife itself.

No it doesn't. If your knife is hidden and my CZ are hidden then you're at an incredible disadvantage. I'm just as fast as you, but can pop you without moving my upper body. If I miss I can try again, and again.
Lets see, I practiced quick draw and point shooting twice this month and burned 600 rounds doing it. How many times did your hypothetical super ninja?


And now for a trip down memory lane:

Also a steel blade can split a lead bullet, so if you want to mention training the guy trained with a knife so well that he can do so.

What

the

are you talking about?

I've been in a situation where there was no talking. The incident started with violence (a blow to the back of my head), and ended with violence. In all honesty, if I or the person I was with that day had been carrying, there would have been less violence as the crap bag perps would have been scared off vice fighting. Instead, it got ugly.

'Gee kind Sir, perhaps we ought to discuss the implications of your intended assault' doesn't work in real life. Or at least does not work often enough for me to want to bet on it working.

Frazzled, bullets are made out of lead which is a soft metal compared to steel. Topshot had a challenge wear the shooter had to split a bullet on an axehead and pop two balloons.

Also Frazzled in your hypothetical you are using your own training as a comparison to a knife wielder. What if the person with the knife has had more training in knife fighting than you have in your quick draw?

I was simply saying that it all depends on who is holding the weapon. If you're sitting down with a gun and intend to kill someone, its not the weapon's fault that its in the hands of a malevolent person. Again, weapons are not dangerous until someone does something dangerous with them. You're not really arguing against that fact, just saying that you're a dangerous person when it comes to concealed weapons.




Just because its finally somewhat relevant.