Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Apparently I have like zero presence or I do a bad job of projecting my voice because I haven't seen any of the recaps mention it, but I asked at the seminar yesterday whether "fully supported range" meant just terrain or also new units and upgrade kits fo KT?

Answer was "yes" so I thought that was pretty cool.

Either that or no one heard/understood my question and they just said yes to move on to more "when is X character going to be released" memes...

Racerguy180 wrote:
I hope Primarchs/demon princes are not allowed.

A Daemon Prince is roughly on par with a Dreadnought, so if we see one it wouldn't be totally unreasonable to see the other.

Even with a totally different points scheme, I think you'd struggle to fit a ~400 point-equivalent Primarch into a ~200 point-equivalent Kill Team.

I think even small vehicles are a bad thing.
They're very hard to kill with standard infantry weapons. And in a KT format, you can't protect your special/heavy weapons, since each guy is its own unit. The player with a vehicle can usually just focus down on the 1 or 2 opposing models that can really put a hurt on the vehicle, and then enjoy a model with insane durability.
Unless of course the rules are different enough that everything I just said doesn't apply (like being able to hit/kill the vehicle's pilot, or just an overall decreased durability).

Always thought it'd be interesting to play a game like Only War where everyone in the group plays as the crew of a Baneblade. I don't think a Baneblade would work in a game like Killteam, but if that was your entire force, for a special scenario, that could be pretty cool.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I hope Primarchs/demon princes are not allowed.

Somehow I doubt they will be.

A 40k Lovers in a Dangerous Space Time-esque video game would be a good way of doing that. Could be the crew of a baneblade, or any other vehicle.

fresus wrote:
I think even small vehicles are a bad thing.
They're very hard to kill with standard infantry weapons. And in a KT format, you can't protect your special/heavy weapons, since each guy is its own unit. The player with a vehicle can usually just focus down on the 1 or 2 opposing models that can really put a hurt on the vehicle, and then enjoy a model with insane durability.
Unless of course the rules are different enough that everything I just said doesn't apply (like being able to hit/kill the vehicle's pilot, or just an overall decreased durability).

I mean, assuming this new version will be related to the 8th rules, is that kind of thing even an issue any more? So long as they keep anything heftier than a Dreadnought out of things a bit of focus fire should be able to handle vehicles now everything can hurt everything else, it's not like Ye Olden Tymes when losing your dedicated AT weapons meant you were unable to harm vehicles at all.

 Yodhrin wrote:

fresus wrote:
I think even small vehicles are a bad thing.
They're very hard to kill with standard infantry weapons. And in a KT format, you can't protect your special/heavy weapons, since each guy is its own unit. The player with a vehicle can usually just focus down on the 1 or 2 opposing models that can really put a hurt on the vehicle, and then enjoy a model with insane durability.
Unless of course the rules are different enough that everything I just said doesn't apply (like being able to hit/kill the vehicle's pilot, or just an overall decreased durability).

I mean, assuming this new version will be related to the 8th rules, is that kind of thing even an issue any more? So long as they keep anything heftier than a Dreadnought out of things a bit of focus fire should be able to handle vehicles now everything can hurt everything else, it's not like Ye Olden Tymes when losing your dedicated AT weapons meant you were unable to harm vehicles at all.

The lightest vehicles are still T5/W6/4+ (Eldar skimmers, sentinels), which require 36 S4 AP0 hits to take down. That's 27 marines in rapid fire range.
A Dread is twice as hard to put down with S4/AP0 weapons, and four times as hard with S3. So that's 144 BS4+ lasguns in RF range to take it down.
I also hope we'll see some small vehicles, but I still think the rules need to be drastically different for it to work.

That's what special weapons are for! And equipment like meltabombs or haywire grenades.

fresus wrote:
. That's 27 marines in rapid fire range.

So one Eldar Skimmer is equal 20 Brimstones

I would say let's hope that Brimstones or similar stuff don't make it into the game

Or you just take a Specialist with Melter and one with Flamer.....

H.B.M.C. wrote:That's what special weapons are for! And equipment like meltabombs or haywire grenades.

But since each guy is its own unit, it's very easy to focus on the dude holding the special/heavy weapon.
That's why vehicles (even with 8th ed. rules) don't work very well with a simple KT ruleset like it was done in previous editions.

kodos wrote:

fresus wrote:
. That's 27 marines in rapid fire range.

So one Eldar Skimmer is equal 20 Brimstones

I would say let's hope that Brimstones or similar stuff don't make it into the game

Or you just take a Specialist with Melter and one with Flamer.....

Yes, hordes were king in 7th. ed. KT.

We don't have any clue how different the new rules will be, so this discussion is a bit pointless anyway. I think my overall point is that to make KT work, the rules need to be quite different than 40K rules, not just the simple "each guy is its own unit" thing we got previously.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I mean, assuming this new version will be related to the 8th rules, is that kind of thing even an issue any more? So long as they keep anything heftier than a Dreadnought out of things a bit of focus fire should be able to handle vehicles now everything can hurt everything else, it's not like Ye Olden Tymes when losing your dedicated AT weapons meant you were unable to harm vehicles at all.

Well, seeing Dread can absorb more bolter shots than your typical KT can output during normal game, especially considering said Dread will be killing 1-2 models per turn, it would still be issue, yeah. Especially seeing you can just something like autocannon on it and snipe enemies from corner being effectively invulnerable...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's what special weapons are for! And equipment like meltabombs or haywire grenades.

Seeing dread can mount heavy flamer next to all other gear, good luck with closing to melee distance with it. And even that is not really necessary. If you ever played old KT, lack of ablative wounds and not being able to tie up more than one model's shooting with a charge nerfed melee in KT so heavily it was almost useless in the end, doubly so in the era of free fall back...

Yeah the big problem with KT has always been that numbers win every time since there was no way to compensate for the fact that each model could only kill another single model a turn, whether it was a Gretchin or a Space Marine.

The previous Kill Team had a mode where one side brought a single Monstrous Creature or similar (Carnifex, Dreadnought, Wraithlord, etc) and the other side had to take it down. I expect this will have similar options. Likewise the "one man army" option - pit a kill team against an Imperial Assassin or the like.

For the record, my Imperial Guard veteran squad took down the Carnifex (eventually, by throwing krak grenades at it from behind) and the Space Marine tactical squad got wiped out by the Vindicare assassin (in melee, as it happened!), although in that game we forgot to give the kill team its extra specialists.

Well if shadow war is being used as the basis for this, you could only target the nearest model unless you had specific rules. This meant that special weapon squad members could stay in the back and stay safe unless your opponent brought snipers or other styled units.

That'd be a good counter to 7th kill team where you killed the special weapons then heavy flamered the opponents team to death.

Also, there were ways to split fire in that system too. Some weapons like heavy bolters could hit 2-3 guys at a time and even basic weapons like a grenade launcher used large blast templates. Gave serious downsides to bunching up as well as discouraging hordes a bit.

I really hope that rule is not included, its so stupid.

fresus wrote:

Yes, hordes were king in 7th. ed. KT.

Respectfully, the King of 7th ed. Kill Team was Gloria.

In all seriousness, a rhino in KT was obnoxiously busted. Teams that could take one down often only bothered investing that kind of points on one guy. One guy who never expected a multi-melta to have infiltrate.

ritualnet wrote:
I'm happier having a figure I have painted, and modelled to be interesting to look at (so not WYSIWYG), and then having cards, or stats that change. Maybe I'm just old, but when we used to play D&D, we didn't spend ages remodelling our figure just because I swapped out a dagger for a short sword?

To me, I would make a kill team of unique looking figures (battle worn marines, scrap necrons, etc), identify them with a number or name on base rim, and then say "Dave there, he has a plasma gun" even though he's got a bolt pistol in each hand, and one in his mouth. As it's a smaller squad based game, it shouldn't be too much of an issue?

I'd build a new, similar model for Dave to represent the plasma gun as it's a significant and important change. On the other hand, if Dave started with a lasgun and swapped it out for an autogun or shotgun, then it's close enough. Pistols of course go in holsters. Could be any sort of pistol in there.

fresus wrote:
The lightest vehicles are still T5/W6/4+ (Eldar skimmers, sentinels), which require 36 S4 AP0 hits to take down. That's 27 marines in rapid fire range.

Do you know what else takes 36 S4 AP0 hits, or "27 Marines in Rapid Fire range", to take down? Six Space Marines. I don't think many people would argue that six Marines would make an unfair Kill Team.

A Dreadnought is as tough (against bolter fire) as 12 Marines, but considerably weaker against any multiple-damage weapons, and doesn't have the overkill problem.

Putting a Dreadnought up against a squad of Marines is already a pretty reasonable fight with the current 40k rules, so I doubt it would take more than subtle tweaks to make it work in Kill Team.

 kadeton wrote:

fresus wrote:
The lightest vehicles are still T5/W6/4+ (Eldar skimmers, sentinels), which require 36 S4 AP0 hits to take down. That's 27 marines in rapid fire range.

Do you know what else takes 36 S4 AP0 hits, or "27 Marines in Rapid Fire range", to take down? Six Space Marines. I don't think many people would argue that six Marines would make an unfair Kill Team.

A Dreadnought is as tough (against bolter fire) as 12 Marines, but considerably weaker against any multiple-damage weapons, and doesn't have the overkill problem.

Putting a Dreadnought up against a squad of Marines is already a pretty reasonable fight with the current 40k rules, so I doubt it would take more than subtle tweaks to make it work in Kill Team.

Remember, this is Shadow War 2.0 not mini 40k. The rules are unique to this game. I highly doubt you'll be able to take more than 10 marines max.

So considering the scope of the game, having a single model be as tough as an entire kill team is ridiculous. And not every kill team will have the tools to deal with such vehicles at all. It'll be too skewed. On top of that, any heavy weapon specialist will likely be expensive and limited in number per team. This would lead to specialist sniping rendering vehicles unstoppable.

Dandelion wrote:

 kadeton wrote:

fresus wrote:
The lightest vehicles are still T5/W6/4+ (Eldar skimmers, sentinels), which require 36 S4 AP0 hits to take down. That's 27 marines in rapid fire range.

Do you know what else takes 36 S4 AP0 hits, or "27 Marines in Rapid Fire range", to take down? Six Space Marines. I don't think many people would argue that six Marines would make an unfair Kill Team.

A Dreadnought is as tough (against bolter fire) as 12 Marines, but considerably weaker against any multiple-damage weapons, and doesn't have the overkill problem.

Putting a Dreadnought up against a squad of Marines is already a pretty reasonable fight with the current 40k rules, so I doubt it would take more than subtle tweaks to make it work in Kill Team.

Remember, this is Shadow War 2.0 not mini 40k. The rules are unique to this game. I highly doubt you'll be able to take more than 10 marines max.

So considering the scope of the game, having a single model be as tough as an entire kill team is ridiculous. And not every kill team will have the tools to deal with such vehicles at all. It'll be too skewed. On top of that, any heavy weapon specialist will likely be expensive and limited in number per team. This would lead to specialist sniping rendering vehicles unstoppable.

Yeah everyone needs remember that this basically it's own game. There's d10 in the preview so we can guess some of the rolls need to be made using a d10 maybe even all of them. Which means there could be new stats written for models being used in this game. Saying how many shoots it takes to kill a vehicle is meaningless as it could end up being different for kill team.

Dandelion wrote:
Remember, this is Shadow War 2.0 not mini 40k. The rules are unique to this game. I highly doubt you'll be able to take more than 10 marines max.

So considering the scope of the game, having a single model be as tough as an entire kill team is ridiculous. And not every kill team will have the tools to deal with such vehicles at all. It'll be too skewed. On top of that, any heavy weapon specialist will likely be expensive and limited in number per team. This would lead to specialist sniping rendering vehicles unstoppable.

Why would having a single model as your entire Kill Team be a problem, per se? If the rules make such a contest fun for both players, then I see nothing wrong with it.

The resilience we're talking about is predicated on the opposing Kill Team not having the tools to deal with such vehicles. We're discussing shooting them with basic anti-infantry weapons, totally unsuited to the task - and the infantry still do just fine. If your Marine team brings (for example) a multi-melta and a plasma gun, that Dreadnought's screwed.

"Specialist sniping" has been a frequent point of contention. I'm curious what makes people think that "specialist sniping" is going to be possible in this new ruleset, and even if it is, why that would only be a problem when vehicles were involved?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's what special weapons are for! And equipment like meltabombs or haywire grenades.

Plus I assume every model will be able to throw Krak Grenades? (if they have them - good for Marines and Sisters)

I don't know why anyone is making rules assumptions given that they have told us literally nothing about the rules.

CassianSol wrote:

I don't know why anyone is making rules assumptions given that they have told us literally nothing about the rules.

I think you just answered your own question?

In the absence of information, we get speculation.

And discussion too, don't forget!

I think everyone is just excited for a true skirmish scale game set in the 40K setting.

Kind of hope they take a "same model, different ruleset", and that there are special profile that replace the 40k ones.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I really hope that rule is not included, its so stupid.

Errrm - which rule?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Well if shadow war is being used as the basis for this, you could only target the nearest model unless you had specific rules.

Being a salty old bastard who was there on launch day to buy Rogue Trader...

I am dubious about this. Despite playing every version of Kill Team ever made, even the much more fun fan-version.

Unlike most folks I enjoyed Shadow War. For those that didn't know Shadow War was a copy and paste (in totality) of 2nd Edition 40k. If you add back in squad rules and a few odds and ends you can play a 2nd edition game with the presented rules.

The problem with it was the same thing that is wrong with MOST editions of 40K when people really complain.. it isn't the rules it's the army lists-codexes.

Shadow War suffered from really horrible army lists that were just ludicrous. A primary example is Grey Knights vs the Dark Eldar list. Yeah. awful.

If you want a really fun kill team game I liked a ton was Company of Iron for warmachine. It was a hoot.

By far though the best "kill team" game ever made was Mordheim. It was better than the OE Necromunda to be fair.

Fore pure funsies: Gorka-Morka was an awesome game. Digga NOBS!

In this new one, success or failure is less about the core rules set and more about how good the lists are. One of the things that made people have so much fun with Mordheim were the gang lists. You could bring any particular gang and have a good match up (not withstanding what happens later when gangs level up and the you can crush all enemies if you get good enough).

Its a game, we play them because they are fun. If they are not fun they are not a game. Here is to hoping they get the lists right. So far they have not had such a good record there of.

 kadeton wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Remember, this is Shadow War 2.0 not mini 40k. The rules are unique to this game. I highly doubt you'll be able to take more than 10 marines max.

So considering the scope of the game, having a single model be as tough as an entire kill team is ridiculous. And not every kill team will have the tools to deal with such vehicles at all. It'll be too skewed. On top of that, any heavy weapon specialist will likely be expensive and limited in number per team. This would lead to specialist sniping rendering vehicles unstoppable.

Why would having a single model as your entire Kill Team be a problem, per se? If the rules make such a contest fun for both players, then I see nothing wrong with it.

That's a huge "if".

 kadeton wrote:
[
The resilience we're talking about is predicated on the opposing Kill Team not having the tools to deal with such vehicles. We're discussing shooting them with basic anti-infantry weapons, totally unsuited to the task - and the infantry still do just fine. If your Marine team brings (for example) a multi-melta and a plasma gun, that Dreadnought's screwed.

Not every team has the same access to special/heavy weapons as Marines. Tau strike teams for example have 0 anti-tank. Pathfinder weapons are more for heavy infantry. Stealthsuits would likely be the smallest platform with an anti-tank gun. So right off the bat, it's not balanced.

 kadeton wrote:

"Specialist sniping" has been a frequent point of contention. I'm curious what makes people think that "specialist sniping" is going to be possible in this new ruleset, and even if it is, why that would only be a problem when vehicles were involved?

I can't imagine a rule set that would make specialists sniping difficult. If a player knows that only 2 fighters can kill his dreadnought then he'll prioritize them. Once they're gone, the dreadnought is essentially unstoppable. And remember, the dreadnought is ALSO supported by an entire kill team.

If this game doesn’t feature vehicles then I’m not interested. If I want to have infantry vs infantry fights, I already have Necromunda.