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I'm thinking up what my marines army will be, i've heard a few things about the Vanguard assault marines, good and bad. I feel like their ability to assault after deep striking will be good, but they are awfully expensive, points and money wise. So i ask the members of dakkadakka, yes or no to the Vanguard?

ps. i also feel like they would be good to stick with my Sternguard as an anti assault bodyguard or something, would that work well?

They offer a lot of customization ability and Heroic Intervention is a really nifty ability. In the end though they cost lots of points even when left stock. They jump to around 30 pts/model with jump packs and with any other additions get pretty clost to the cost of terminators.
Additionally Heroic Intervention is very hard to pull off as you must have the squad land within 6 inches of the target squad which requires a locator beacon to pull off reliably.
Lastly without storm shields they have the survivability of a basic marine.
I really like the idea of the unit myself but the points make them very hard to fit in economically while keeping them stompy. I would probably take a basic assault squad in their place as an anti assault body guard as assault marines are much more economical and compared to a naked VV squad only come up 1 attack less/model.

Think of it like this. 5 Vanguard with JUST jumppacks cost 225 points. Give them storm shields and thunder hammers and that's another 225 points. totaling 450.

For 450 points you can buy a 10 man terminator assault squad. Or 5 terminators and a freakkin Land Raider.

And even without jump packs 5 Vanguard with storm shields and thunder hammers are over 350 points. vanguard are just plain over costed to ever be of any use.

Sadly Vanguard are for apocalypse only. I agree with previous posters they are way too over priced. Even Heroic intervention isn't that good because you have to declare it before you roll for scatter, so if you scatter you're 'd.

They are nice models though, so I play mine as a cool looking assault marine squad.

If you are going to use them, use them for their Deep Strike + Assault ability and give three? of them power weapons of some kind. Then get out and destroy something. They are coming on in turn 2, 3 anyway.

I would use them to charge something hard in cover. They can assault 12" from a Teleport Homer.

So charge cover, get a cover save if they need it. Next turn they get an 18" charge again. Cool unit with cool models.

Vanguard Vets can't make use of a Teleport Homer as it only effects models teleporting onto the battlefield. You are thinking of he locator beacon which can only be found on scout bikers and drop pods that have taken that upgrade.

While they may have the ability to charge anything within 12 inches of that beacon you have to get that beacon in position the turn before the squad comes in, while waiting that turn the target squad can move away 6 inches, shoot up the beacon or the timing might simply not be there. There are a lot of variables in it sadly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you are charging cover off the drop there is a chance you can not make that difficult terrain test and end up short and not make it that way as well.

They're pretty good, particularly if you're using the other two Fast Attack choices for other stuff. Then you can get two combat squads with power weapons and whatnot. Combine with Tigurius and Locator Beacons to get the best out of their Heroic Intervention ability, but don't limit yourself to just that. With four attacks on the charge, they hit hard, and starting on the board they make a great flanking unit.

Nurglitch wrote:They're pretty good, particularly if you're using the other two Fast Attack choices for other stuff. Then you can get two combat squads with power weapons and whatnot. Combine with Tigurius and Locator Beacons to get the best out of their Heroic Intervention ability, but don't limit yourself to just that. With four attacks on the charge, they hit hard, and starting on the board they make a great flanking unit.

They're actually pretty bad, especially compared to other Fast Attack options. Combat squadding to create small assault units is just silly as odds are quite good that you'll lose several models with special weapons to wound saturation. Combine them with Tigurius and Locator Beacons and you just paid 545 points, minimum, for 10 MEQs that can barely kill two Terminators on average.

I have now used and replaced them in my 2000 pt list. they were really effective at what they did but were far too expensive for my list at 2000 pts.
[what they did was eat CSM and carnifiex while weilding 4 power weapons and one TH]

I'm going to miss those buggers

i like the idea of being able to use scout bikes with a beacon as a T5 tarpit, then bringing in the vanguards within 6" and smashing whatever you have stuck on your bikes.

Sadly I dont think its worth the points you invest. at the cost of bikes+beacon+vets+packs+wargear you are definately into termi prices.

I personally cant think of a reason to take the vets when you can get terminators or a 10x assault squad to do basically the same thing instead.

Ok, so 10 points/model for jump packs makes them way too expensive. Why not leave them on foot and give them a rhino?
4 attacks each on the charge isn't bad, even if berzerkers are much better for 3 points more. Mix in 1 or 2 weapons and you should have a fairly nasty assault unit.
Maybe you could even justify a couple of power weapons and thunder hammers if you put a chaplain in with them.

Comparing their entry to CC Termies I'm still having a hard time justifying them. Lame.

Think +1A, Sweeping Advance, Power Weapons, Melta Bombs, and Drop Pods.

An assault squad that has to sit for a turn is just a liability, especially with the transport heavy environment of 5th edition. Even drop podding them an inch away from your opponent's gunline is begging for 300 points to get shot off the table. If you're going to Alpha Strike, Vanguard are just better. And if you're going to do anything else, then anything else is better, too.

If you avoid the spendy options they're a better choice then Jumppackless Assault marines, but other then that they're is not much to be said in their favour.

Jack

I can't take them (silly DA codex) but they just seem way too overpriced... If you had take take a veteran squad, go with Sternguard. Especially since taking tanks and other armor is the new black. Combi-meltas+special ammo (hella versatile)=win. Sternguard are more worth their points, Vanguard just seem like souped up Assault Marines with garbage cost-efficiency.

Rico.

They are really cool looking models and that must count for something. I like the idea of arming them with stormshields and power weapons in a rhino... They are quite dear pointwise but if you are playing for fun it's not that big a deal.

G

5 VV with JP, SS, and LC are 310 points and absolutely EAT units like Chaos Terminators and Obliterators for breakfast. Definitely a good buy in a droppod army, where the saturation of Locator Beacons means you should always have a good place to DS.

I would certainly hope a 310 point unit could eat a 225 point unit for breakfast.

Now what happens against a competent player where his Oblits are screened? Your vets either bounce off a rhino wall or get bogged down in 10 regular CSM, how probably kill several for far, far fewer points traded.

Chaos Terminators are 30-35 ppm if they're run as the most typical Termicide configuration (as well as drop podding). Each VV would have to kill two just to break even. And will probably die in the process to mass I4 attacks.

Agaisnst Orks it's just gross. Those 5 guys would have to kill 40 models (LOLOLZ) to break even. Ouch.

310 points for 5 MEQs, even MEQs with 3++, is total complete epic fail.

I run a drop pod army and had toyed with a unit of vanguard, but ultimately they are amazing at doing what they do, but unfortunately they cost almost a third more than they should do.

Sure they'll kick ass on whatever they go into combat with, but ultimately they'll still cost more than the unit they killed, and probably get shot of the table before they have chance to kill another unit.

sourclams wrote:I would certainly hope a 310 point unit could eat a 225 point unit for breakfast.

Now what happens against a competent player where his Oblits are screened? Your vets either bounce off a rhino wall or get bogged down in 10 regular CSM, how probably kill several for far, far fewer points traded.

Chaos Terminators are 30-35 ppm if they're run as the most typical Termicide configuration (as well as drop podding). Each VV would have to kill two just to break even. And will probably die in the process to mass I4 attacks.

Agaisnst Orks it's just gross. Those 5 guys would have to kill 40 models (LOLOLZ) to break even. Ouch.

310 points for 5 MEQs, even MEQs with 3++, is total complete epic fail.

Actually.... they only have to kill one unit of anything to break even. VP don't mean anything anymore.

Lordhat wrote:

sourclams wrote:I would certainly hope a 310 point unit could eat a 225 point unit for breakfast.

Now what happens against a competent player where his Oblits are screened? Your vets either bounce off a rhino wall or get bogged down in 10 regular CSM, how probably kill several for far, far fewer points traded.

Chaos Terminators are 30-35 ppm if they're run as the most typical Termicide configuration (as well as drop podding). Each VV would have to kill two just to break even. And will probably die in the process to mass I4 attacks.

Agaisnst Orks it's just gross. Those 5 guys would have to kill 40 models (LOLOLZ) to break even. Ouch.

310 points for 5 MEQs, even MEQs with 3++, is total complete epic fail.

Actually.... they only have to kill one unit of anything to break even. VP don't mean anything anymore.

That's true, but it's a good measure of a unit's value in terms of how many points it costs vs. how many points worth of enemies it can destroy.

180 points worth of boyz (30 boyz, no upgrades at all) can drag those 5 vanguard vets down. Once they're all dead, you're out a super valuable unit, and he's down by part of a very cheap expendable one.

It's an easy philosophy to evaluate your units. For example, my 150 point Defiler killed roughly 15 boyz and a warboss last game before a nob with a power klaw junked it. The boyz accounted for 90 points, warboss was at least 100, so the Defiler did its job. Chaos terminators also did a good job, killing some bikers and some nobs.

Looking at units' performance in terms of points is awesome for refining a list.

Man everyone hates on the vanguard
They are actually prety good if you dont go overboard on the goodies.
So 5 dudes with thunderhammer/LC will have a hell of a time against orc boys, who cares
How many lootas do 5 guys with a relic blade have to kill to break even (hint, with jump packs they are under 200). They will destroy a unit of lootas and its hard as hell for the orc player to advance AND protect his lootas.

They are not a counter attack H2H unit. They are mobile enough to avoid the H2H powerhouse units and go for the soft squishy underbelly of armies. The dev squads, the command squads, and so on. They are the only unit in the entire game that can do what they do and they should have to pay the points for it. Take two, go risky and one will have a hell of a day (the second will usually scatter to nowhere and perform in some manner or another).

Their only real problem is when enemy armies mount up. This can be solved by taking a fairly large amount of anti tank in the rest of your army which you have to do anyways to counter mech guard/mech marines.


So what if they die to massed str 4 attacks. Every non-armor unit does. How many stock marines does it take to kill 8 thunder hammer termies before they swing?? Its not that many and it costs less than those termies.

My prefered config is 6 guys, relic blade, 2x thunder hammer (or power weapon), 2x storm shield, 2x melta bomb.
Storm shields are expensive but they save an expensive guy from plasma fire for a turn or two. You only need a couple, if your taking piles of plasma fire your going down anyways. Same goes for power fist wounds on your unit.

They stink!

Actually red its 125 base + 15 for the sergeants TH + 120 for vet TH's + 75 for 5 SS's + 50 for Jump Packs for a total of: 385

Everything has its own applications in different situations, like this one for instance.

1.Infiltrate with Shrike and Vanguard with Jump Packs
2. Detach Shrilke from squad (He slows down the unit)
3. Move in for the throat

Thought it is true that the point cost for this unit is very high, and not right for most people in most situations, when it is paired with Shrike it then makes that 385 point cost so called "over priced assault squad" into a guaranteed 18inch+ assault (Fleet Chapter Tactic).

Now I realize that this basicially leaves the unit to die, as they are so far out ahead, but think about the psychological blow you have just dealt to your opponent. Lets also not forget the fact that the hammers can and will pop vehicles, which in 5th ed means the difference between winning and losing.



On the other hand I'd take Sternguard in a drop pod, locator beacon, and MM Speeders. Just me though......

Mad Rabbit wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

sourclams wrote:I would certainly hope a 310 point unit could eat a 225 point unit for breakfast.

Now what happens against a competent player where his Oblits are screened? Your vets either bounce off a rhino wall or get bogged down in 10 regular CSM, how probably kill several for far, far fewer points traded.

Chaos Terminators are 30-35 ppm if they're run as the most typical Termicide configuration (as well as drop podding). Each VV would have to kill two just to break even. And will probably die in the process to mass I4 attacks.

Agaisnst Orks it's just gross. Those 5 guys would have to kill 40 models (LOLOLZ) to break even. Ouch.

310 points for 5 MEQs, even MEQs with 3++, is total complete epic fail.

Actually.... they only have to kill one unit of anything to break even. VP don't mean anything anymore.

That's true, but it's a good measure of a unit's value in terms of how many points it costs vs. how many points worth of enemies it can destroy.

180 points worth of boyz (30 boyz, no upgrades at all) can drag those 5 vanguard vets down. Once they're all dead, you're out a super valuable unit, and he's down by part of a very cheap expendable one.

It's an easy philosophy to evaluate your units. For example, my 150 point Defiler killed roughly 15 boyz and a warboss last game before a nob with a power klaw junked it. The boyz accounted for 90 points, warboss was at least 100, so the Defiler did its job. Chaos terminators also did a good job, killing some bikers and some nobs.

Looking at units' performance in terms of points is awesome for refining a list.

Instead of retyping it again.... I'll just quote myself:

Lordhat wrote:
I catch a lot of flak about my 'overcosted' Vangaurd squad, how they 'die too easy' and 'don't make their points back'. The latter REALLY gets my goat, as outside of tournaments, the points you pay are meaningless to the result of the game. A VV squad is one KP. So is an Assault Terminator squad, so is.... you get the point. Each unit you field should have a purpose for that game. The combination of purposes should lead to the win. If your units do what you planned on them doing, instead of what your opponents plans on them doing, then they have 'made their points back', regardless of what, if anything, they have killed.

Sure I've had a few games where my VV's didn't do a lot, (but they always accomplish their mission, even if it is to inflicts several wounds and then die), but I've also had a few games where they have killed triple their points worth of models (after accomplishing their task).

As long as you have a good strategy, that can flex to the changing battle, and clear goals for each unit, don't be afraid to give up "VP's" to get the win.

Lordhat is simply correct in my opinion. Armies need complete synergy, and sometimes what the unit has synergy with isn't apparent, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

DarkHound wrote:Lordhat is simply correct in my opinion. Armies need complete synergy, and sometimes what the unit has synergy with isn't apparent, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

I'll like to third Lordhat here.

They may actually be decent in Planetstrike with having the ability to deepstrike and assault out of a Drop Pod. All they had to do to make the Vanguard a Decent was to allow them to assault from a Deepstriking Drop Pod and that would have made them a fantastic but not broken unit.

Fair enough, Lordhat. My problem with the KP deal is that Assault Termies are a very difficult KP to get, where Vanguard Vets are generally more fragile. Either way, your point is valid.

Instead of discussing this, why not talk about where to use them, not just Yes/No.

I'm wondering if they'd be a good sledgehammer unit for my Imperial Fists. My army is a fairly static shooty one, so the idea of the VV would be to charge the hardest enemy units that approach and crack them open, using the 18" charge range to get them before they reach the line.

I was just thinking that they would be a great hammer to a list with big guns. If you put out enough static dakka and they stop expecting an assault, then dropping into combat off of the deepstrike to hit a key gun battery with some special equipment will tip the war in your favour. And since Deepstrike Assaulting gives you so much maneuverability, you have options on what to hit. Its the same reason people fear Zagstrukk and Snikrot.

I think the biggest problem with Vanguard Vets is that people see that they can take all of these items and then do so. They are comperable to Chaos Chosen. Yes, I could give them all dual lightning claws and an Icon of Slaanesh, but that is bloat removal 101. Never stack up too many goodies in 1 unit. A Thunder Hammer or two and a Relic Blade is all they really need.