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Mad Rabbit wrote:Fair enough, Lordhat. My problem with the KP deal is that Assault Termies are a very difficult KP to get, where Vanguard Vets are generally more fragile. Either way, your point is valid.

Instead of discussing this, why not talk about where to use them, not just Yes/No.

I'm wondering if they'd be a good sledgehammer unit for my Imperial Fists. My army is a fairly static shooty one, so the idea of the VV would be to charge the hardest enemy units that approach and crack them open, using the 18" charge range to get them before they reach the line.

Ironic as it is, I think you'd be better served by a squad of Assault Terminators in a LR. The strength of a VV squad is the heroic intervention, which lends itself best to a Drop Pod army/ fast attack army. Dropping multiple Locator Beacons (Droppods, Bike Scouts) means your opponent has to either worry about taking care of those (saving the rest of your army from some shooting) or ignore them and hope your VV can't DS close to anything important. The psychological benefit alone can be a game winner sometimes.

Trying to fit VV's into a Static gunline and use them as counter assault totally defeats their shock (or is it awe?) value, and your opponent can more easliy prepare for where they'll be. Note that Termies (or even Assault squads sans JP) in a LR have a potential 20" charge range (more if you count the bases), plus the added firepower of the LR, makes them a MUCH better choice for your army.

Here the list I use my VV's in:


Firescars Chapter Space Marines:

H.Q.

1 Captain Brond James Westonthall 200

-S.M Captain, Bike, TH & SS, Melta bombs, Artificer armor

1 Captain Antharus Silvermane (Counts as Vulkan Hestan) 190

ELITES

1 Assault Terminator Squad 200
- Assault Terminator (x4) TH & SS (x4)
- Assault Terminator Sergeat TH & SS

TROOPS

1 Tactical Squad 240
-Space Marine (x9)
- Flamer, Multimelta
-Space Marine Sergeant
- Power Weapon, Combi - Melta
- Drop Pod
-Locator Beacon

1 Tactical Squad 240
-Space Marine (x9)
- Flamer, Multimelta
-Space Marine Sergeant
- Power Weapon, Combi - Melta
- Drop Pod
-Locator Beacon

1 S.M. Bike Squad 185
- Space Marine Biker (x4)
- Meltagun (x2)
-Space Marine Biker Sergeant
-Power Fist

1 S.M. Bike Squad 185
- Space Marine Biker (x4)
- Meltagun (x2)
-Space Marine Biker Sergeant
-Power Fist

FAST ATTACK

1 Vanguard Veteran Squad 310
- Vanguard Veteran (x4)
-Jump Pack (x4), SS (x4), LC (x4)
-Vanguard Veteran Sergeant
Jump Pack, SS, LC

I know this list isn't super competitive, but it wins more often than it loses, AND it's great fun to play requiring real thought and tactics to pull out the win (or the draw quite often).

EDIT: This list is 1750 points, BTW.

The big thing I have to say is that with the Vanguard geared like that, even giving them 1 Thunder Hammer would give them a vastly larger scope of targets. They'd actually be able to swoop in on tanks and MCs and do damage.

Remember the synergy thing? My Captain on Bike handles MC's (That the Assault Termies can't get to), Bike Squads, Combi Meltas and MM's take care of tanks. Vulkan is a rather large Force Multiplier.

Sorry, I just look at the Vanguard being able to be geared as a take all comers, allowing you to take maximum advantage of their deployment by making everything a target.

The army synergy I build my lists on is that each unit overlaps in what it threatens, each unit being a threat to as much as it can, forcing the enemy to make nothing but damned-if-I-do,-damned-if-I-don't calls. I am stuck in that mind set and temd to phase out more direct synergies.

I think Darkhound and Lordhat are thinking about different "synergies".

Synergy is when two units enhance each other. A classic example is a Chaos Sorcerer with the Lash of Submission and units with Blast or Template weapons. Rather than just pulling, pushing, or pinning units, the Lash of Submission in this combination can be used to concentrate units, while the blast weapons have their target density improved.

Some units are innately synergistic, including units with Markerlights, psychic powers like Gate of Infinity and Force Dome, and units that affect reserve rolls.

Darkhound seems to be describing redundancy, the duplication of critical elements of an army. As he says, redundancy is good for target saturation, and increases the reliability of an army to carry out your strategy.

Simply having two units with Melta Guns instead of one unit is not synergistic though, since having more than one Melta Gun does not change what Melta Guns can do.

Maximizing synergy and redundancy in any army is a good thing, but there's also something I'm currently calling "complementarity", for lack of a better term.

Complementarity, unlike synergy and redundancy, is the capacity of an army to engage different elements. If having two Plasma Cannons is redundancy, and having a Plasma Cannon and the Lash of Submission is synergy, then having a Plasma Cannon and a Multi-Melta is complementarity because the combination can now engage AV14 targets.

In building an army, you can either distribute these things within units (one reason why Obliterators are so popular) or across units. Vanguard have real flexibility regarding whether they get tooled up to synergize with, duplicate, or complement other elements of any army.

Units that they synergize well with include:

- Librarians (particularly Tigurius)
- Chaplains
- Drop Pods and Scout Bikers (Locator Beacons)
- Land Raiders
- Special Characters (Shrike,
- Scouts
- Whirlwinds

Units that they duplicate well include:

- Terminators
- Assault Terminators
- Assault Squads
- Honour Guard
- Command Squads

Units that they complement:

- Predators and Vindicators
- Dreadnoughts
- Thunderfire Cannons
- Sternguard Squads
- Devastator Squads
- Tactical Squads

Ah, thank you for clearing that up Nurglitch.

I love them they are one of my favorites in my army. I have 10 VV with all melta bombs , 4 pw, 4 plasma guns, rest with reg chainswords and bolt pistols and yes it is a 495 point unit i know some of you think it is stupid I know this. But with Melta bombs is shreds tanks , plasma pistols anything tough comes in close its dead and to softin up targets of course but in cc on a assult thats 4 attacks a piece with the power weapons alone thats 16 attacks with no armour saves , and then the rest of the guys have 24 more attacks so thats a total of 40 attacks from that squad. That will put a big hurt on anything that it touches. Just my 2 cents.. So ya I say a big FAT YES. If you like them use em. But use them right the way it fits your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kapitan Montag wrote:Sadly Vanguard are for apocalypse only. I agree with previous posters they are way too over priced. Even Heroic intervention isn't that good because you have to declare it before you roll for scatter, so if you scatter you're 'd.

They are nice models though, so I play mine as a cool looking assault marine squad.

I think this is wrong by the way I dont think these a APOC only units because we have them in the 5ed Space Marine CODEX. Anyone wanna chim in on this ?

Cato S. wrote:
I think this is wrong by the way I dont think these a APOC only units because we have them in the 5ed Space Marine CODEX. Anyone wanna chim in on this ?

I think rather he means he feels they work better in games where 500+ point units are more common.

Jack

no

EzeKK wrote:no

That guy is right

Why not just take a command squad mounted on bikes with storm shields and power fists? They are faster and can suck up more punishment plus put out more killeage for the same points or less even.

G

But they can't assault after Deepstriking. They also can't Deepstrike. That is their only redeeming factor.

You can also equip the command squad with meltaguns. Nasty!

G