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Abaddon303 wrote: CSM don't have a lieutenant equivalent unfortunately. The only other wound rerol at distance I can think of is daemonforge on a shooting Daemon engine
Ah, I did forget about that. Thank you.
Devastation Battery specialist detachment lets you give a CL or WS a 6” reroll 1’s to wound vehicles aura
Pretty tasty when it’s a CL babysitting some Lascannon Havocs and Oblits. 2CP paywall though, if you want another Warlord; that kind of suggests adding a few more units to the detachment
Well, nothing stopping you from turning you main detachment into the devestation battery.
And given that you are likely to pack a CL and/or WS in there anyway, there is basically no cost besided the 2CP. (and the opportunity cost of not taking another specialist I guess?)
Question is, if your list is built to take advantage of it.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Well, I like Daemonkin lists with stompy death robots.
If I’m going Nurgle, I take a Gnarlmaw for turn one Advance, Warptime, shoot, charge, and Epidemius for Force multiplying and scarecrowing on a home objective. That right there invites some Oblits to benefit from 0+ saves, and some Havocs to soften up targets for the mechs to finish. The threat of their punishing volley looks good, especially if it’s rerolling wounds.
If I’m going Slaanesh, I’m more likely to make my gunners Noise Marines, and have my Oblits teleport in. They’re not rooted (oho) to a Gnarlmaw, so leveraging their deep strike makes up for their mediocre range.
If I’m going Khorne, I’m probably going to give the Altar a try. I made some smexy Warp Talons, and I mean to use them.
If I’m going Tzeentch, I’m looking at a mass of Horrors for screen clearance, plus a TSDP or two.
So, I guess my gunline Marshall CL may as well get a Nurgle paint job
I get both sides of the problem here - I've always loved that Chaos has so many flavours you end up spoilt for choice and when putting together your own theme or even a full bio for your army, nothing gets you as much freedom as playing Chaos.
But the problem with the legion traits – especially the new ones (I'm looking at you The Purge) – is how they will interact with other god-specific abilities we can get. Let's take The Purge as an example. Before the god-lock, you could get:
Slaaneshi Oblits – light up an enemy target for the full to hit re-rolls and then use EC to blast the target (any target, likely) into dust. Oh, and give the Oblits delightful agonies to improve your chances to rinse and repeat next turn. Yeah, I was looking forward to this one.
The Purge Zerkers – light up a target for the full re-rolls to hit and, again, you're getting double-tap for a nice increase in damage output.
I bet people here can come up with more examples of buff-stacking (Flawless Host Berzerkers + prescience, anybody?), but I suppose you get the drift. All that said, nobody is stopping you from creating your own lore at all. And if you want certain units in your army to behave a certain way, you can still go for multiple detachments. Even more so if the lore is your primary reason to play – don't forget that narrative play exists where you're not limited by the rule of three.
Oh I do agree that if you really get dirty you could probably come up with a couple cool combos. But that's one of the issues with how GW seems to write each codex in a complete vacuum from one another. Those kinds of combos would be the norm in over half the other armies. Chaos is the only army that has so many things locked into your faction choice. For example my other army is GSC, the few combos that chaos can do pale in comparison to what i can do with my GSC army and the absurd amount of combos I have access to. So it's as if allowing any combos at all for chaos is seen as too powerful, but for other armies it's not. Like the writers of the codecies don't have an agreed upon design concept. I don't know if comobos are inherently overpowered, because in some armies they're treated as intended and in other armies taboo.
I'm also not really a tourny player, so i'm more concerned with how this limits coming up with your own warband and creating a story for your army. Yeah i'm that guy who has names for his HQ units and little backstories. Whoever wrote the Chaos update seems to not know that that's a thing in some parts of the community, a thing that in the past GW has fostered, and even has written that that's an intended function of the factions/chapters/ect.
TLDR, most other armies wouldn't even bat an eye at those combos, they're the norm. So would it really be a problem if chaos had a few good combos?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
saint_red wrote: I don't get what the deal is. Of the 13 legion/renegade options to choose from, only 6 of them are locked to a specific god. There are plenty of list building options for those who want to build a custom warband.
GW will have balanced the 4 new renegade traits around the fact that they were intended to be god-locked. This is not some balance patch that came out a year after release, this is in the first FAQ.
lol, i'm sorry but the notion that GW actually balanced them in any way, or even thought about balance is funny.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StarHunter25 wrote: My main gripe with the god-locking of renegades is that the Brazen Beasts, the ones who specialize in using Daemon Engines, cannot take a MoP. What is so terrifying floof wise about an unsigned psyker helping make/maintain them? You know, the primary unit for buffing daemon engines? FFS I'm tired of having to repaint my engines.
agreed. Though personally i'd take that a step further and say the whole blocking world eaters and khorne in general from a MoP is silly. It's a hold over from waaaayyy back when psychers in 40k were more so 'magic.' and khorne hates 'magic.'
But let's think about this Khorne is a being of pure warp, all his demons are pure warp...yet he refuses to use the warp? it makes zero sense. So who summons all his demons if he doesn't allow use of the warp? What do his cultists do if they're not allowed to weaken the barrier between reality and the warp? who binds his demon engines if he doesn't allow use of the warp. The entire "khorne doens't like the warp" thing falls apart if you look at it at all. Especially with the MoP who looks exactly like the brutal metal shaman that i would picture a khorne sorcerer to look like. It's an instance of the fluff being extremely nonsensical. And from a rules perspective, what other armies limit you from taking models because 'that faction probably wouldn't have them?" the only one i can think of is black templars.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/01 14:11:39
Gotta agree with Danny here, the renegade traits should've been more universal then they are now to represent warbands better.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
FWIW, every World Eaters character is perfectly capable of Summoning most Khorne Daemons. They don’t get a deity Daemon Stratagem like DG & TS, but stand on a Skull Altar near a Venomcrawler and a BT is feasible.
Wouldn’t pin a battleplan on it, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 14:52:09
Chaos Daemons Tzeentch DP with Daemonspark alongside Tzeentchian Obliterators. Additionally, he can cast Flickering Flames on them for +1 to wound.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
agreed. Though personally i'd take that a step further and say the whole blocking world eaters and khorne in general from a MoP is silly. It's a hold over from waaaayyy back when psychers in 40k were more so 'magic.' and khorne hates 'magic.'
But let's think about this Khorne is a being of pure warp, all his demons are pure warp...yet he refuses to use the warp? it makes zero sense. So who summons all his demons if he doesn't allow use of the warp? What do his cultists do if they're not allowed to weaken the barrier between reality and the warp? who binds his demon engines if he doesn't allow use of the warp. The entire "khorne doens't like the warp" thing falls apart if you look at it at all. Especially with the MoP who looks exactly like the brutal metal shaman that i would picture a khorne sorcerer to look like. It's an instance of the fluff being extremely nonsensical. And from a rules perspective, what other armies limit you from taking models because 'that faction probably wouldn't have them?" the only one i can think of is black templars.
Yeah, I think the whole thing was originally cooked up to show that Khorne only likes the loonies that go in and chop their opponents to bits with axes and despises those who chuck lightning bolts from a distance. It definitely reeks strongly of having been ported over from a fantasy environment.
It also becomes even more nonsensical when you find out that, waaay back when, Khorne was the only Chaos God who actually had any daemon engines at all!
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
Oh I do agree that if you really get dirty you could probably come up with a couple cool combos. But that's one of the issues with how GW seems to write each codex in a complete vacuum from one another. Those kinds of combos would be the norm in over half the other armies. Chaos is the only army that has so many things locked into your faction choice. For example my other army is GSC, the few combos that chaos can do pale in comparison to what i can do with my GSC army and the absurd amount of combos I have access to. So it's as if allowing any combos at all for chaos is seen as too powerful, but for other armies it's not. Like the writers of the codecies don't have an agreed upon design concept. I don't know if comobos are inherently overpowered, because in some armies they're treated as intended and in other armies taboo.
I'm also not really a tourny player, so i'm more concerned with how this limits coming up with your own warband and creating a story for your army. Yeah i'm that guy who has names for his HQ units and little backstories. Whoever wrote the Chaos update seems to not know that that's a thing in some parts of the community, a thing that in the past GW has fostered, and even has written that that's an intended function of the factions/chapters/ect.
TLDR, most other armies wouldn't even bat an eye at those combos, they're the norm. So would it really be a problem if chaos had a few good combos?
How the hell does this stop you from naming your own characters and creating your own warband? Just pick the legion rules that you like most. God-locking has nothing to do with it. These rules have only been out for 4 weeks!
If you want to run Purge rules with your Slaanesh warband in matched play well tough luck. Purge rules are themed for Nurgle units and warbands. If you only play casually then discuss with your opponent if you can run Purge rules.
saint_red wrote: I don't get what the deal is. Of the 13 legion/renegade options to choose from, only 6 of them are locked to a specific god. There are plenty of list building options for those who want to build a custom warband.
GW will have balanced the 4 new renegade traits around the fact that they were intended to be god-locked. This is not some balance patch that came out a year after release, this is in the first FAQ.
lol, i'm sorry but the notion that GW actually balanced them in any way, or even thought about balance is funny.
I am toying with the idea of a shooty Daemon Engine army.
The key driver behind this is MOP and LD. But to make it worthwhile to have a LD sitting in the backline for his aura instead of charging forward, I figured the LD and MOP would have to buff a ton of points of daemon engines. I arrived at 2 lascannon / havoc launcher defilers and one Lord of skulls. These combined would over 900 points worth of daemon engines. And the LOS is a great unit to use the strategem daemonforge on.
Defilers with havoc launchers and lascannons and their battle cannon would be able to sit at 48 inches. The LOS can also uses sit at 48 inches with his Hades gratling cannon. The LD makes the LOS 2+ BS, it makes the Defiler 3+ BS. MOP's cursed earth and infernal power makes them reroll 1s to hit and wound, and gives them all 4++. That is by itself a pretty shooty castle which can countercharge and give any closing melee units a bad day. (Nobody wants to be counter charged by a LD, a LOS and 2 defilers lol).
The second best shooty daemon engine I arrived at wasn't the venomcrawler, or the Forgefiend. It was actually the Plague Burst Crawler. These are so efficient in points, and they are so resilient. And they don't need line of sight. Stick a lord to give them reroll 1s, and they will be another great mini castle.
So I envision a list with 7 Daemon engines (1 LOS, 1 LD. 2 defilers and 3 PBC). All of which will stand far back and shoot the heck out of the opponent. The beauty of the list is that it can actually do quite well in melee too. So unlike other shooty lists which fold once dedicated melee get into the back lines, this kind of shooty list can hit back and take on all but the hardest of melee units in a counter charge.
I didn't do the hard math, but I did some trial dice rolls and the long ranged firepower has a pretty decent chance at destroying a Castellan even through its max 4++ save if I get the first turn. So, it passes the "Castellan" test.
If you would go for a lower cost, Decimators might be worht looking at with twin butcher cannons, they profit from the LD and also get's bs2+.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Hey my dudes, you guys have been a great help so far, so thanks to ya'll.
I've got 345pts to play with for my Terminator squad, and I'm torn as to how to equip them. Not sure if I should just max out plasma, or go more versatile. They'll be marked Slanesh, have a Sorcerer casting Divine Agonies and Prescience, adding VotLW and EC. I know the combi-flamer isn't exactly ideal for deep striking, but I'm hesitant to put a plasma on the champ, I wont mind overcharging so much on a normal guy, and I have a few spare points.
No. GW has explicitly stated that Death Guard and Thousand Sons are not valid keywords to replace <Legion> with, therefore they cannot take the LD (or any other CSM codex entries for that matter).
No. GW has explicitly stated that Death Guard and Thousand Sons are not valid keywords to replace <Legion> with, therefore they cannot take the LD (or any other CSM codex entries for that matter).
My idea is to bring the 3 PBC as a separate Deathguard spearhead detachment. I didn't say the LD was there to buff the deathguard.
the_Jakman wrote: Hey my dudes, you guys have been a great help so far, so thanks to ya'll.
I've got 345pts to play with for my Terminator squad, and I'm torn as to how to equip them. Not sure if I should just max out plasma, or go more versatile. They'll be marked Slanesh, have a Sorcerer casting Divine Agonies and Prescience, adding VotLW and EC. I know the combi-flamer isn't exactly ideal for deep striking, but I'm hesitant to put a plasma on the champ, I wont mind overcharging so much on a normal guy, and I have a few spare points.
Option 2 Champ w/ combi-flamer, power fist 1x combi-plasma, chain axe 2x autocannon, power fist 6x combi-bolter, chain axe
Cheers for the help again guys.
Honestly, I'd run 5 with plasma and chain axes for 190pts, and spend 155 on something else - that's exactly the price of a squad of Dakka havocs, for example. Drop your buffs on them turn one, they'l be dead by turn 2, when you bring in your termies, who become your favoured buff boys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 11:22:12
Anyway, with Brazen Beasts being psyker-banned, I'll probably run black legion like so. It's actually better though I'm sad I lose my moral wound stratagem meme, but it means I'm going to have to actually learn BLs stratagems .
Pretty obvious what the plan is. Get one of the foot heralds near the bulk enemy, be master builder, give all the engines extra attacks+ such and go to town. Kytan is both a fire magnet and doom broom, 2+ to hit with rerolls from MoP. Too bad I can't really find points for a 3rd venomcrawler. Might see if 2 mauler/3venom better idea.
Are people having any luck running the new devastation battery detach? It seems like the havocs are squishy, as referenced above they likely will die by turn 2, but to get the full benefit looks like a 2CP premium so worthwhile to take more than just 1 or 2 units of qualifying heavy support(?)
I'm currently thinking of a list of 2 alpha legion max chaincannon havoc squads with 1 max lascannon to use the alpha legion to close the distance/ensure they are in cover. With the mandated chaos lord in tow.
Prior math hammer suggest obliterators (max squad refire) are superior and they are also I believe more durable (for example with delightful agonies)...
Danny slag wrote: TLDR, most other armies wouldn't even bat an eye at those combos, they're the norm. So would it really be a problem if chaos had a few good combos?
Removed, Rule #1 please - BrookM
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 16:14:53
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Danny slag wrote: TLDR, most other armies wouldn't even bat an eye at those combos, they're the norm. So would it really be a problem if chaos had a few good combos?
Removed, Rule #1 please - BrookM
Have to agree. The new CSM codex + vigilus has given chaos quite an amazing depth actually. The different amount of unique and different lists you can field are staggering.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 16:15:01
Starting to see the impact of the recent FAQ on pure Imperial Knights lists.
A player at my FLGS was forced to downgrade a Castellan to a Crusader in order to make points. Played him, more lascannon shots getting through, big models going down sooner. It was a very different game.
Most of my Chaos lists have been optimized to kill Knights in a single turn. I've been using MSUCSM spam to force them to waste shots. While it's still early to say, this might be changing...
techsoldaten wrote: Starting to see the impact of the recent FAQ on pure Imperial Knights lists.
A player at my FLGS was forced to downgrade a Castellan to a Crusader in order to make points. Played him, more lascannon shots getting through, big models going down sooner. It was a very different game.
Most of my Chaos lists have been optimized to kill Knights in a single turn. I've been using MSUCSM spam to force them to waste shots. While it's still early to say, this might be changing...
I rekon Medium tanks might make a return, stuff like leman russes, predators maybee, etc might now after the meta has settled and people bring less AT might make a return?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
p5freak wrote: No, preds still suck. (Hellforged) contemptor dreads are better in almost every way.
To be fair, when making any chaos list almost any unit you add makes you think "yeah but a contemptor could do this better for less points." They're so damn good.
I'm about to try triple venomcrawlers though.
3 venomcrawlers
Not outstanding, but the only demon engine that can shoot without getting -1 to hit, i wanted to try take advantage of that. They can do damage at range and still mix it up in close combat, pretty versatile.
They're not dead weight in the turns they're moving up the board, or if they need to chill and hold an objective.
MoP with cursed earth and infernal power. Warp Lord warlord trait
Both powers are cool in that they're aura's instead of 'choose one unit.' Because those powers are a pretty big deal for this setup warp lord just makes them a bit more reliable, even if it's not flashy.
Greater Possessed
Obviously for the +1 str, and more damage when they get near the enemy.
Karnak
From a khorne demon detachment i also have, so he has the loci power giving the bunch, except the MoP rerolls to charge. Also gives the group more psychic protection.
It feels like what i'm used to with deathguard, a ball of stuff moving up the board that isn't full on rush and hope to get to melee, or sit back and shoot, but in between. It can contribute damage as it moves up, 4+ saves across the non-characters. And if it get's to the enemy in addition to whatever venomcrawlers are there to charge, the greater possesed and karnak can run up and rip face too.
I realize it's not optimized, basically a trio of contemptor dreadnoughts could do all the same thing, probably better, with less character support or barely more cost. But I'm going to try it anyway because i really like the venomcrawler models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/03 00:43:43
p5freak wrote: No, preds still suck. (Hellforged) contemptor dreads are better in almost every way.
To be fair, when making any chaos list almost any unit you add makes you think "yeah but a contemptor could do this better for less points." They're so damn good.
I'm about to try triple venomcrawlers though.
3 venomcrawlers
Not outstanding, but the only demon engine that can shoot without getting -1 to hit, i wanted to try take advantage of that. They can do damage at range and still mix it up in close combat, pretty versatile.
They're not dead weight in the turns they're moving up the board, or if they need to chill and hold an objective.
MoP with cursed earth and infernal power. Warp Lord warlord trait
Both powers are cool in that they're aura's instead of 'choose one unit.' Because those powers are a pretty big deal for this setup warp lord just makes them a bit more reliable, even if it's not flashy.
Greater Possessed
Obviously for the +1 str, and more damage when they get near the enemy.
Karnak
From a khorne demon detachment i also have, so he has the loci power giving the bunch, except the MoP rerolls to charge. Also gives the group more psychic protection.
It feels like what i'm used to with deathguard, a ball of stuff moving up the board that isn't full on rush and hope to get to melee, or sit back and shoot, but in between. It can contribute damage as it moves up, 4+ saves across the non-characters. And if it get's to the enemy in addition to whatever venomcrawlers are there to charge, the greater possesed and karnak can run up and rip face too.
I realize it's not optimized, basically a trio of contemptor dreadnoughts could do all the same thing, probably better, with less character support or barely more cost. But I'm going to try it anyway because i really like the venomcrawler models.
I'll be interested to hear how this does. I too love the Venomcrawler and would love a reason to take mine out for a spin. Too bad you can only use Daemonforge once per turn. I also wonder if a Lord Discordant would be worth having for something like this.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 25 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
What would an all daemon engine list look like in the meta these days? Do most people bring primarily anti-vehicle lists? Are all those anti-Castellean lists suitable for taking on multiple foes that want to punch them in the face?
Gordon Shumway wrote: What would an all daemon engine list look like in the meta these days? Do most people bring primarily anti-vehicle lists? Are all those anti-Castellean lists suitable for taking on multiple foes that want to punch them in the face?
Castellan is no more meta with +100 pts. and max 4+ inv.
Yeah, but the lists take a while to readjust. They will still be there till someone knocks them down. You really think the VC is that good? I would almost be tempted to take a 2nd Slaughter detatchment.
The VC can advance and charge because of the herald of slaanesh, and they get +2 move from the LoDoH WLT. Turn 1 charge is possible. The two LoDoH now get legion traits, so they can also charge after advancing. The blood slaughterers cant charge after advancing. One can, with the stratagem. But i would use that on the kytan.
p5freak wrote: No, preds still suck. (Hellforged) contemptor dreads are better in almost every way.
To be fair, when making any chaos list almost any unit you add makes you think "yeah but a contemptor could do this better for less points." They're so damn good.
I agree with this, and it really pleases me since the models are so darn cool.
The only time I don't think they do it better is vs. lascannon havocs, and that's only because of EC if you -really- needed it. But, on average, I think the contemptor with 4 2+ las shots is better.
I think the 2x Kheres cannon will also be more consistent than a unit of chaincannon havocs excepting in specific niche scenarios. I'd still take the havocs just to double up and have bodies. No reason we can't do both!
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
.
15000
4000 
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Imperial Knights: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
