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Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







if they can sell terrain at this price its clear that the individual terrain sets are totally a shameless money grab.

Why include terrain every expansion? just keep things separated and at sensible prices.

The new meta is sell £100+ box sets now then split it with a HUGE price increase.

Pass on both.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

Wait, these don’t come with rules? My interest just went down significantly.

Probably a good thing for my budget.

   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Voss wrote:

No, the whole pricing scheme isn't even vaguely that coherent.
Consider this and the Ash Wastes box, their various component breakdowns (anyone really think the minimal Ash Wastes terrain is worth $240?) and the $299 HH box coming next month (which is 40 marines, 10 terminators, a big tank and a dread. Oh, and rules and whatever).

Somehow they vastly over-value terrain in individual...

It makes sense if you understand how they work out sales prices. They are a combination of production & design costs versus expected / forecasted sales in the products lifetime.

Despite having fairly similar production costs to the items in the KT set, the new Heresy kits will easily outsell those terrain kits over the next decade, likely by a significant order of magnitude. Even if the HH launch box goes out of production there's still a guaranteed audience of customers buying the individual kits as they cover both main factions in the game.
Meanwhile a much smaller fraction of GW customers are building their own tables with plastic terrain, let alone with this specific terrain.

As an example; if it costs GW around £50k to design & produce the contents for each of these boxes. They may expect to see £100k in sales for the KT set but £400k sales for the HH set. Guess which receives more aggressive pricing?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 13:25:12


 
   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






 Nevelon wrote:
Wait, these don’t come with rules? My interest just went down significantly.

Probably a good thing for my budget.


No, these boxes don't come with the full Kill Team rules. Here are the relevant passages from the store page:

1x 96 page Kill Team: Moroch Rules manual: take the fight to the corrupted world of Moroch, a key defensive point in the Nachmund Gauntlet, with background material for this stronghold world and the forces that clash over it. This manual also includes new rules, datacards, and background tables for the Phobo Strike Team and Blooded kill teams, as well as additional killzone rules and Shadow Operations missions set on this war-torn planet.

You'll need a copy of Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team Core Book to make full use of this supplement.


The very first box, Octarius, had the rule book and gaming aids to go with the models and terrain in the box. The following versus boxes are only models and terrain along with a book that has rules for the included teams and kill zone. If you want the rules for Kill Team, you'll either need the separate rule book or the Octarius-derived starter set.

Which sucks as GW happily prices the Kill Team boxes close to the first one (or at its price after the price increase a few months back), but you don't get the game and have to pay around a third more on top of it to get into Kill Team if you want to add the rules and aids to your new box. This has the side effect that the Kill Team boxes, Octarius excluded, don't actually offer much of a discount if the included book is useless to you, or you have to complement it with another purchase. You're basically required to have a use for everything included or else you're likely better off waiting three months for the individual kits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:32:37


Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Pricing aside, it doesn't make sense for GW to continue to put the Kill Team Core rules in the quarterly Warzone box. Ongoing players already have the rules and don't need another copy every quarter. It's a waste of space, weight, and cost and thus profit to include it.

As for the pricing difference between a big battle box and the individual kits, just about everything in life is more expensive the less you buy. Six single sodas are more expensive than a 6-pack. Two 6-packs are more expensive than a 12-pack. That doesn't mean you are being gouged when you purchase a single soda at a store that sells all 3 sizes.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

 Geifer wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
Wait, these don’t come with rules? My interest just went down significantly.

Probably a good thing for my budget.


No, these boxes don't come with the full Kill Team rules. Here are the relevant passages from the store page:

1x 96 page Kill Team: Moroch Rules manual: take the fight to the corrupted world of Moroch, a key defensive point in the Nachmund Gauntlet, with background material for this stronghold world and the forces that clash over it. This manual also includes new rules, datacards, and background tables for the Phobo Strike Team and Blooded kill teams, as well as additional killzone rules and Shadow Operations missions set on this war-torn planet.

You'll need a copy of Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team Core Book to make full use of this supplement.


The very first box, Octarius, had the rule book and gaming aids to go with the models and terrain in the box. The following versus boxes are only models and terrain along with a book that has rules for the included teams and kill zone. If you want the rules for Kill Team, you'll either need the separate rule book or the Octarius-derived starter set.

Which sucks as GW happily prices the Kill Team boxes close to the first one (or at its price after the price increase a few months back), but you don't get the game and have to pay around a third more on top of it to get into Kill Team if you want to add the rules and aids to your new box. This has the side effect that the Kill Team boxes, Octarius excluded, don't actually offer much of a discount if the included book is useless to you, or you have to complement it with another purchase. You're basically required to have a use for everything included or else you're likely better off waiting three months for the individual kits.


It’s a shame. I had pretty much talked myself into getting into KT. But the cost for this box was stretching things as it is, and shelling out the extra cash for the rule, bits&bobs, etc is just too much. And yes, I know there is ebay and other sources.

I don’t mind paying GW for models. But the rules get me. Especially as I’m a slow painter. By the time I get a force ready to table, the game might be dead. Especially the specialists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 alextroy wrote:
Pricing aside, it doesn't make sense for GW to continue to put the Kill Team Core rules in the quarterly Warzone box. Ongoing players already have the rules and don't need another copy every quarter. It's a waste of space, weight, and cost and thus profit to include it.

As for the pricing difference between a big battle box and the individual kits, just about everything in life is more expensive the less you buy. Six single sodas are more expensive than a 6-pack. Two 6-packs are more expensive than a 12-pack. That doesn't mean you are being gouged when you purchase a single soda at a store that sells all 3 sizes.


I understand it would be wasteful for players already in the game, but having cheep rules in a core box helps lower the cost of entry into the game. Is it worth reducing profits a little for older players to get fresh blood?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 15:18:43


   
Made in de
Been Around the Block





If you want the rules, tokens plus two teams, you can get the way cheaper starter set. I'm actually glad that I don't get more worthless paper with the box as I don't even play the game. I know this is a bit of a "I got mine" attitude but as the starter box with the excellent Krieg and Ork Kommandos exists it shouldn't be too difficult to get an acceptable entry into Kill Team.
   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






 Nevelon wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
Wait, these don’t come with rules? My interest just went down significantly.

Probably a good thing for my budget.


No, these boxes don't come with the full Kill Team rules. Here are the relevant passages from the store page:

1x 96 page Kill Team: Moroch Rules manual: take the fight to the corrupted world of Moroch, a key defensive point in the Nachmund Gauntlet, with background material for this stronghold world and the forces that clash over it. This manual also includes new rules, datacards, and background tables for the Phobo Strike Team and Blooded kill teams, as well as additional killzone rules and Shadow Operations missions set on this war-torn planet.

You'll need a copy of Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team Core Book to make full use of this supplement.


The very first box, Octarius, had the rule book and gaming aids to go with the models and terrain in the box. The following versus boxes are only models and terrain along with a book that has rules for the included teams and kill zone. If you want the rules for Kill Team, you'll either need the separate rule book or the Octarius-derived starter set.

Which sucks as GW happily prices the Kill Team boxes close to the first one (or at its price after the price increase a few months back), but you don't get the game and have to pay around a third more on top of it to get into Kill Team if you want to add the rules and aids to your new box. This has the side effect that the Kill Team boxes, Octarius excluded, don't actually offer much of a discount if the included book is useless to you, or you have to complement it with another purchase. You're basically required to have a use for everything included or else you're likely better off waiting three months for the individual kits.


It’s a shame. I had pretty much talked myself into getting into KT. But the cost for this box was stretching things as it is, and shelling out the extra cash for the rule, bits&bobs, etc is just too much. And yes, I know there is ebay and other sources.

I don’t mind paying GW for models. But the rules get me. Especially as I’m a slow painter. By the time I get a force ready to table, the game might be dead. Especially the specialists.


I've been there with Chalnath. I eventually bought it when I saw it in stock for a reasonable discount, but without the Kill Team rules I have no incentive to look into the game and expand my choices with future purchases. With the shoddy quality of their rules I'm certainly not going to buy any rules from GW unless they're in a discounted bundle box where I can talk myself into buying it for the models, the thing GW is actually good at, and getting the rules as a free bonus along the way. It's the only reason why I have the current 40k and AoS rules.

Yeah, it's a shame. You'd think they'd want to get as many people into the game as possible to get more model sales, but apparently book sales must really have a big impact on GW's bottom line for them to continue selling rules as they have in the recent past.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 Nevelon wrote:
I understand it would be wasteful for players already in the game, but having cheep rules in a core box helps lower the cost of entry into the game. Is it worth reducing profits a little for older players to get fresh blood?

yeah, but those are not core boxes but expansion boxes for those already in the game
the same way army boxes (combat patrol or whatever they are called now) don't come with the core rules, because they are not meant for new people starting the game but for exiting players to expand

so those that are already playing Kill Team and are now waiting for their faction to get an actual Kill Team outside the Index, this is the box (if you cannot wait for the stand alone release)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Gurnee, IL

Those Traitor Guardsmen are amazing, that's one sweet kit. Its a missed opportunity that they did include a traitor decal sheet. I'll definitely be getting some when they get a solo box.

"Fear the cute ones." 
   
Made in gb
Imperial Agent Provocateur




Exeter, UK

 Sersi wrote:
Those Traitor Guardsmen are amazing, that's one sweet kit. Its a missed opportunity that they did include a traitor decal sheet. I'll definitely be getting some when they get a solo box.


Not many places to stick decals. :( Hopefully, when the inevitable Traitoris armour comes along, there'll be a sheet then.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 18:47:45


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So, the chaos guard don't have melee weapon/auto pistol options to go alongside the lasgun troops? But they gave them to the BSF ones :(
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Nevelon wrote:
I don’t mind paying GW for models. But the rules get me. Especially as I’m a slow painter. By the time I get a force ready to table, the game might be dead. Especially the specialists.

Let me offer a slightly different viewpoint - if you're a slow painter, and unsure when you'll get the teams completed, there's an argument that you're better off not getting the rules with the box, but getting them later on. At least that way, when you are ready to get into the game, you can be sure the rules you pick up at that point haven't gone out of date due to an edition change...

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Gurnee, IL

 Shakalooloo wrote:
 Sersi wrote:
Those Traitor Guardsmen are amazing, that's one sweet kit. Its a missed opportunity that they did include a traitor decal sheet. I'll definitely be getting some when they get a solo box.


Not many places to stick decals. :( Hopefully, when the inevitable Traitoris armour comes along, there'll be a sheet then.


True, those shoulder pads are tiny. I was thinking some half chaos glyphs for the breast plates or cloaks; like they've painted on. They can be free-handed, but I'd still be nice though.

"Fear the cute ones." 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 Nevelon wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Pricing aside, it doesn't make sense for GW to continue to put the Kill Team Core rules in the quarterly Warzone box. Ongoing players already have the rules and don't need another copy every quarter. It's a waste of space, weight, and cost and thus profit to include it.

As for the pricing difference between a big battle box and the individual kits, just about everything in life is more expensive the less you buy. Six single sodas are more expensive than a 6-pack. Two 6-packs are more expensive than a 12-pack. That doesn't mean you are being gouged when you purchase a single soda at a store that sells all 3 sizes.


I understand it would be wasteful for players already in the game, but having cheep rules in a core box helps lower the cost of entry into the game. Is it worth reducing profits a little for older players to get fresh blood?
I think from GW's perspective, it is better to have the new players shell out for a separate rulebook rather than have players who already have a rulebook flooding the secondary market with the free rulebooks they got via the Warzone boxes.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

That and they make a Starter Set, so really, if you want a rulebook, you've got two options.

If they didn't make one, and the only box you could get was whatever 'seasonal' box was on sale at the time, then yeah, not having the rulebook would be stupid.

But, again, they have a book available, and the actual starter box has one.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That and they make a Starter Set, so really, if you want a rulebook, you've got two options.

If they didn't make one, and the only box you could get was whatever 'seasonal' box was on sale at the time, then yeah, not having the rulebook would be stupid.

But, again, they have a book available, and the actual starter box has one.


This sums up exactly what I was gearing up to say.

They would lose money on these boxes if the rules were in them. Look at all the existing players wanting the box.
New players (particularly going into a GW) are gonna be guided to the Starter.
(And if you like this box and it’s your first - Box plus separate Rulebook is the way.)
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Dysartes wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
I don’t mind paying GW for models. But the rules get me. Especially as I’m a slow painter. By the time I get a force ready to table, the game might be dead. Especially the specialists.

Let me offer a slightly different viewpoint - if you're a slow painter, and unsure when you'll get the teams completed, there's an argument that you're better off not getting the rules with the box, but getting them later on. At least that way, when you are ready to get into the game, you can be sure the rules you pick up at that point haven't gone out of date due to an edition change...


I feel like the current Kill Team rules, and the rules for all the factions in these boxed releases, are solid. Yeah, if you want to get into things and play competitively at a later point you're better off waiting, but if you just want to play with friends/family I think the current ruleset and what you get in these boxes is pretty much evergreen. There's not huge balance issues or anything. I think they make a nice little self-contained game that'll be playable for years to come regardless of if a new ruleset comes out.
   
Made in us
Haughty Harad Serpent Rider





Richmond, VA

deano2099 wrote:

I feel like the current Kill Team rules, and the rules for all the factions in these boxed releases, are solid.


and the White Dwarf teams; my Warpcoven Thousand Sons are super fun to play and I think I have a current win rate of maybe slightly over 50%. The last campaign game I played, while I annihilated the guard player but he still won by 3 VP's (despite me having 7 more battle honours than him!). The 10 fully realized teams (plus hopefully the 2 upcoming) are all very well balanced (veteran guard, kommando, pathfinders, novitiates, legionaries, corsair voidscarred, warpcoven, hunter clade, void-dancer troupe, wyrmblade, plus phobos strike team and blooded). KT2021 is probably the most fun/balanced in-print GW ruleset outside of Middle-earth SBG.
note relating to my experience: my group only plays Narrative with all teams currently in spec ops campaigns (some in their second).

"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
   
Made in fi
Been Around the Block




jullevi wrote:
I certainly wouldn't have picked Fronteris big box if I had guessed that the scenery was going to be included in Kill Team this soon. As I don't want any more Fronteris terrain, looks like I am skipping this one and invest funds into Horus Heresy or pick Kill Team Chalnath from FLGS bargain bin instead.

There’s a GW bargain bin in a Finnish LGS? Tell me more

But yes, this is a pass for me as well, I just don’t get that warm fuzzy feeling I need to get to part with this sort of cash. Tbh, I didn’t get it with Nachmund, initially, either, but when I figured out a use for part of the legion upgrade sprue, I had to go for it…

   
Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




Small balance change

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/24/the-new-kill-team-balance-dataslate-is-here/
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

So no more spamming grenades as equipment options? Do some compendium teams have any other useful options?

I feel they have also not realised those are the only counter some teams have to stuff like 'quins who can get behind cover very easily.
   
Made in de
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




Knee deep in bone ash, gore and mud

Almost every team has some +1dmg options, not great, not terrible
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






Having done my fair share of 14 guardsmen loaded with krak grenades to their teeth, this is a good change. Also fits the general paradigm of no doubling up on specialists, which many grenadiers effectively become.


#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman



Cadia

Maybe it's a necessary balance change but it's a really stupid idea from a fluff point of view. Grenades are standard-issue equipment, why does my entire squad have to share a single frag grenade? What's next, only half the models can have a lasgun, the other half have to pick up lasguns once the first wave dies?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/25 18:09:22


THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in fi
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






CadianSgtBob wrote:
Maybe it's a necessary balance change but it's a really stupid idea from a fluff point of view. Grenades are standard-issue equipment, why does my entire squad have to share a single frag grenade? What's next, only half the models can have a lasgun, the other half have to pick up lasguns once the first wave dies?


I agree. Ideally, grenades should have been dealt with a different in-game mechanic than the current implementation. The current implementation seems like a failure if it results in grenades being the superior weapon in most situations. Elite troops all carry extra pistols and grenades, and this should somehow reflect their effectiveness in-game, as it is now, they need to be nerfed or they are "too good" LOL

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/25 18:20:16


+++ Thought for the Day: Forget The Narrative — Slaanesh demands more plastic! +++ 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




CadianSgtBob wrote:
Maybe it's a necessary balance change but it's a really stupid idea from a fluff point of view. Grenades are standard-issue equipment, why does my entire squad have to share a single frag grenade? What's next, only half the models can have a lasgun, the other half have to pick up lasguns once the first wave dies?
wow I know this is from real life russia but that sounds perfect for a 40k regement and honestly death corps would fit that nicely. What was the book where the death korps fought the necrons and as they where being atomized they passed around a single melta gun so they could keep killing? Was a pretty cool scene.
   
Made in pl
Huge Hierodule





Boosykes wrote:
What was the book where the death korps fought the necrons and as they where being atomized they passed around a single melta gun so they could keep killing? Was a pretty cool scene.

The book title is "Dead Man Walking".
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






 tauist wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
Maybe it's a necessary balance change but it's a really stupid idea from a fluff point of view. Grenades are standard-issue equipment, why does my entire squad have to share a single frag grenade? What's next, only half the models can have a lasgun, the other half have to pick up lasguns once the first wave dies?


I agree. Ideally, grenades should have been dealt with a different in-game mechanic than the current implementation. The current implementation seems like a failure if it results in grenades being the superior weapon in most situations. Elite troops all carry extra pistols and grenades, and this should somehow reflect their effectiveness in-game, as it is now, they need to be nerfed or they are "too good" LOL



The current implementation is good, though. It gives grenades a solid niche where they shine and their damage output is relevant. Their range and limited availability, on the other hand, means they aren't the optimal move in every scenario during the game. This is a nice example of a limited use item that works fine. In a game of KT, which doesn't simulate careful military action but rather emulates fast and violent war fiction action scenes, it's better to have the big explosives as a spice here and there. Same reason why most comprehensive teams are made of unique gunners and specialists instead of spamming everyone with similar loadouts. In this design paradigm, it fits right in.

#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman



Cadia

 Sherrypie wrote:
The current implementation is good, though. It gives grenades a solid niche where they shine and their damage output is relevant. Their range and limited availability, on the other hand, means they aren't the optimal move in every scenario during the game. This is a nice example of a limited use item that works fine. In a game of KT, which doesn't simulate careful military action but rather emulates fast and violent war fiction action scenes, it's better to have the big explosives as a spice here and there. Same reason why most comprehensive teams are made of unique gunners and specialists instead of spamming everyone with similar loadouts. In this design paradigm, it fits right in.


It's only good if you ignore the lore. The lore has it well established that special/heavy weapons are limited to a small number per squad but grenades are standard issue. And from a modeling point of view many units have grenades shown on every model. So the fluff says I have a squad with frag grenades for everyone, the models all have visible frag grenades, and somehow I'm only allowed to throw a single grenade for the entire fight and I have to decide before the fight begins which member of the squad is allowed to use theirs? And if that member dies before throwing the grenade the rest of the squad has to shrug and say "well, it would be nice to use these grenades I'm carrying but we don't have all the right paperwork filled out"?

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
 
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