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I am trying to flesh out my army for a 1750 escalation league. I have chosen the Chaos Space Marines for my first venture into 40k. I am getting into it for fun and not for tourney competiton. However I don't want my eventual 1750 army to completely suck because of certain choices I made. While I don't mind losing, I'd rather it not be a given everytime I approach the table with them. I also am trying to avoid the dual lash army as from what I have read alot of people play it and I would rather try something different. Evn though I really do like the Daemon prince model.

1. I am wondering about the heavy. I really like the Havoc models, but my friend is telling me they are crap and not really worth taking. He is suggesting 3x3 oblits but I think they are obnoxiously expensive and really limit what else I could take due to the points they'll eat.

2. Troop choice 1000 sons, Plague, Berserkers, or standard csms? 1000 sons look like squad killers but everyone seems to prefer plague over them.

Thanks

1. Run a plague 1k son army i ran it at 'ard boyz and didnt do too bad with it. Its really annoying esp. if you put all your troops in basic rhinos. As for heavies run 2 defilers or vindicators. HQ try termie lord or sorceror. 2. The reason for plagues is they are good obj. holders and they are.

Well plague marines are distatirous to put together, but 2x melta, serg, powerfist, rhino combo works well.

Well 3x3 oblits work very well, but if you think there too expensive, then by some bits of the internet, and buy 10 termies, and convert them not too hard, stick a flamer, lascannon, melta and plasma gun, and aload of bolters underneath that to bulk it up and presto, a complete Obliterator.

Ahh good idea i forgot about termies into oblits.

9 Oblits is the best choice for tournies, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with Havocs. 4 Flamer or melta havocs in a rhino is the best choice, but autocannon/missile havocs are good for sticking in cover and shooting transports.

Standard CSM are a great troops choice, better than regular marines in CC for 1PPM less, you can't lose! they aren't as good at shooting though, as their heavy and special weapons are more expensive.

Plague marines have FNP, that essentially means that have 2 wounds a piece (except against things that deny FNP), which is awesome. They can also take two special weapons, which means, in this Melta-Crazy edition, that they are popular in the metagame.

Thousand sons are only taken by theme armies unfortunately. The aspiring sorc is good, but expensive.
The best loadout for them is a large footslogging squad with a BOC aspiring sorc, use that SAP to your advantage. A small squad in a rhino with a warptime sorc isn't terrible bad either, especially for intercepting assault termies, command squads, etc, because of their invuln save.

I hate berzerkers. They are troops, but they are in CC 90% of the time if you're using them right. Vanilla CSM with MOK do their job for much cheaper, while having better options. Still, 10 'zerkers in a land raider is hard to beat.

Noise marines are my personal favorite. 10 Noise marines w/ sonic blasters and blastmasters, and a rhino with 2 bolters brings PAIN to hordes and MEQs alike. I give them a rhino, but I never put them into it, I use it to shield them.

^ what he said, minus the noise marine praise. They're worth it if they stand still half the game, and that's about the only time. Assault havocs are uber fun, though they eat some of your Oblitz.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:^ what she said, minus the noise marine praise. They're worth it if they stand still half the game, and that's about the only time. Assault havocs are uber fun, though they eat some of your Oblitz.

FTFY

Also: Yeah, if they move they only have storm bolters, how terrible....

So you'd pay +10 points a model for fearless, I5 and storm bolters? I sure wouldn't If they had any extra protection I'd be more of a fan. It's all preference anyway. She/he/it, whatever. As a Slaanesh lover you shouldn't care.

Considering how much storm bolters cost on other units, and the fact that you can stay still and get heavy 3, I'd say they're pretty good.

But you did point out that as a Slaaneshi cultist i might be a LITTLE biased.

Havocs are not gak they are just outshone by the other entries in the Heavy section. Being able to run around in a rhino w/ 4 melta guns is kind of redonkulous.

6 Meltas if you count the combi-meltas on the Rhino and Champion.

I have to agree about Khorne marked CSM being the better troops for a Khornite army, but Berserkers are great assault units once you have your objective holders covered.

To be honest, you can do pretty much anything you want without Lash and it isn't "cheese" with this codex. Lash has taken such a spotlight that it outshined everything else. Nothing in this 'dex is bad (minus Spawn, but they are only really there as a stat-line for Gift of Chaos) so long as you are using them with the rest of your army for a purpose. I use Possessed for a suedo Daemon Bomb, which is something the older players say couldn't be done with this 'dex, so trust me when I say 'if you think it, it can be done.'

Yeah its unfortunate that one build has cemented itself in the brains of players , when in fact the whole of the chaos codex is pretty decent and has lots of options for a great variety of builds.

I call it lemming syndrome.

Spellbound posting on Foda Bett's computer here.

Lash isn't bad. I don't like seeing it in armies with other gods except undivided, just because it doesn't make much sense fluff-wise. I myself have played Emperor's Children for the past 6 years so I use two and I don't feel bad - really, what other options do I have? Lucius [sucks], lord [instant death and stab himself], and sorceror [lash but also cause instant death....why take a lord?]. Comes down to DP.


Lash ASIDE, since you don't want that, here's some other good HQs for you:

Nurgle daemon prince, warp time - very reliable. Tougher to kill, and re-rolls give a serious edge in combat. Being able to reliably kill 3-4 models in cc a turn is nice [my princes usually kill 1-2].

Khorne Daemon prince - I knocked these until I started getting manhandled by one last game. Fairly inexpensive and straightforward, it's like a winged tyrant with a better invulnerable save and higher weaponskill. Nice bugger.

Kharn - better than a bloodfeeder lord because he won't cut himself and he can actually stand a chance against vehicles.

Typhus - avoid S8 weapons, but having a daemon force weapon and being a better psyker than Ahriman [bur?] makes for a nice combo. Still hurts to stab yourself in the face with a daemon weapon though.



As for troops, Plaguemarines are really too expensive, and don't kill enough enemies. Rather than hold an objective with tough troops, I'd kill the enemy with cheap troops and take THEIR objective. Take regular CSM squads with double assault weapons. Honestly if you're staying in a rhino and shooting, regular CSM do it JUST as well as plaguemarines but cost less. CSM with an icon of khorne with two meltas do a swell job too. Run forward, pop a tank with meltas, eat the juicy innards.

I like Noisemarines, but I use them up close and personal. With a doomsiren and a power weapon they can really do a number on hordes and marines alike [especially hordes of marines!], and lash just makes that doomsiren even juicier.

Terminators work well, I find. Combi-weapons are great things, and you don't need a lot of terminators to get the job done. I don't know how many times I've had simply 3 terminators with combi-weapons weaken a squad with shooting, charge and damage it further with assault and survive the low number of retaliatory attacks to send them running. Just 3! Great unit, and cheap. 3 terminators with a heavy flamer and 2 combi-weapons only costs 105 points.

For heavy support, your options are limited. Obliterators are nice - but you don't need 9. 3 make a good strike force that can deepstrike and eliminate a threat - VERY efficiently. 9 and your damage curve goes down FAST when the enemy starts sending heavy weapons their way. 3 oblits and 450 points of other, in-your-face deadly stuff that they can't afford not to kill is better, I think. Havocs are bad for your buy at range. Unable to move, the enemy can find cover and stay there. Autocannons are efficient use of points, but 4 autocannons get statistically as many hits as 15 lootas rolling a 1 for number of shots, and since they're cheaper, it sickens me. With assault weapons, though, you can get twice the killy power of a CSM squad for less cost. Very nice. Predators are nice, and not taken very much since they don't sync with lash. AV 13 can soak a lot of fire that would otherwise kill princes and rhinos, and with an autocannon a 2x lascannon sponsons they come out pretty cheap. Vindicators are nice, but risky.

Defilers, though, are great. I'm disappointed seldom by them [usually when they miss all their attacks] but they provide GREAT versatility in that they can hunt tanks or infantry well, and do very well in assault. There's nothing I want more in combat with lightning claw terminators than a defiler. They're also great insurance vs killakans, bloodcrushers, and nobz, all three famous power units known to walk through armies by themselves.

Chosen can provide great death-dealers. Kit them with assault weapons and you can do tons of damage. 5 flamers can ruin a unit of bloodletters or pretty much anything else, and 5 meltas can really ruin a vehicle's day.

If I were you, I'd use basic CSM with assault weapons, in rhinos, backed up by 3 obliterators and a pair of predators. Take one squad of khorne-marked CSM with wither twin flamers or twin meltaguns [I'd go with flamers, and trust other meltas to take down tanks] and use them either to solo units or to help out your commander, for which I think a warp time Nurgle prince would do well. Let the prince handle real threats like dreadnoughts, enemy defilers, etc and the khorne guys can do things on their own or prevent the prince from getting bogged down by grots. A unit of chosen can also keep your enemy guessing.

HQ
Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Warp Time - 175

Troops
10 CSM, 2 flamers, Icon of Khorne, Aspiring Champion, Powerfist - 230
Rhino, Combi-meltagun - 45

10 CSM, 2 Meltaguns - 170
Rhino, Combi-meltagun - 45

10 CSM, 2 Meltaguns - 170
Rhino, Combi-Meltagun - 45

Elites
5 Chosen, 5 Flamers - 115
Rhino, Combi-Plasmagun - 45

5 Chosen, 5 Meltaguns - 140
Rhino, Combi-plasmagun - 45

Heavy Support
3 Obliterators - 225

Predator, Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons - 130

Predator, Autocannon, Lascannon sponsons - 130


Total: 1,710

40 points left to do things like add icons to those CSM squads to help with the Obliterator deepstrike if you want to do that.


Another thing I thought of was changing one of the 10 man CSM squads into 2 5-man squads with a meltagun each, in rhinos. This gives you an extra rhino, but puts you at 1755. You can make one of the squads have just a flamer instead, or take off a flamer from the 5-flamer chosen squad.

A word on lash: It doesn't affect units in vehicles, and you can limit its effectiveness using your own models. Keep a good rhino blockade and he won't be able to move your models between them, he'll have to go around. Very handy for keeping your prince from being pulled into charges. Remember too that those chosen squads can outflank [to get at any nasty leman russes sitting on the sidelines, etc] and that warp time can be cast at the start of the opponent's turn too!


Long-winded, but hopefully helpful. Remember this is Spellbound, so if you have any questions feel free to PM me on that name, not this one.