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Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah but all the ANIME style. You know, low frame rates. beautifully rendered still images that someone will talk over. Static faces. Janky movements. Action lines because how else are you going to convey movement when you are not actually animating it? Little cartoon tear drops floating next to somebody's head because drawing emotions on someones face is too hard. That kind of thing.

It doesn't matter if you get 100 different artists to create shows in their distinct artistic style if they are all in the anime style.


Is it really necessary to engage in this? You don't have to like it but if we judge an entire genre by its lowest budget efforts, I think all of them come out pretty gakky :/

Nevermind that plenty of big budget projects pour the money into the visuals and still come out like gak. Maybe this will be one of them. One thing that seems really unlikely is that they're working generic season anime series budgets where they string 12-13 episodes out of a couple ten K and minimum effort. If anything, knowing Disney, they'll dump way more money than is warranted and then get all huffy when people still don't like it XD

yeah man but only anime has any real good story telling, *said while ignoring the mountains of westren animation with great storytelling!*


Eh. It's easy for anime fanatics to make that claim. Big effort will be put into some animation projects in Japan and not all of them are for kids. The industry will put out 4-6 pretty good shows a year, 2-3 gems, maybe 1 future classic (and since the vast majority of shows only get a single run, two tops, they don't stick around long enough to become stale). Western animation has way less output and a lot of it is targeted explicitly at kids with little regard for any quality beyond selling toys. We get maybe half the same amount of good gak out of western animation studios but a lot of the difference comes down to sheer volumne. I can see how people would get the impression that anime does it better, but I'd actually put money down that as a percentage anime does worse. For every gem that comes out of Japan, there's like 2 dozen minimum effort cliche fests that are just there to sell little statues of cute anime girls and body pillows to the weebs who take that gak way too seriously.

EDIT: Though there is some irony here in that I'd still hold Avatar the Last Airbender as the best western animated show of the last 20 years and it was heavily influenced by anime. And most of the really good shows coming out of studios since have been heavily influenced by Avatar.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 02:28:52


   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

balmong7 wrote:
 chromedog wrote:
I'm not a fan of the animation style for the SW "what if" thing, so I'll give it a miss.


Just a general dislike of the anime aesthetic? This comment stuck out at me because every episode is a different studio and thus a different animation style as well.


It's not a dislike of animation per se.

I just don't like the animation styles used that were shown in the teaser/trailers. I also didn't particularly care for the Tartakovsky clone wars minisodes (the "Samurai Jack" aesthetic).
In the same way I didn't care for about 80% of the EU and very little of the new EU novels appeal to me, either.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot




United States

chromedog wrote:

It's not a dislike of animation per se.

I just don't like the animation styles used that were shown in the teaser/trailers. I also didn't particularly care for the Tartakovsky clone wars minisodes (the "Samurai Jack" aesthetic).
In the same way I didn't care for about 80% of the EU and very little of the new EU novels appeal to me, either.


That's fair. I was surprised that all the styles would be a miss for someone. But I totally get that. I was just curious to hear you elaborate.

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah but all the ANIME style. You know, low frame rates. beautifully rendered still images that someone will talk over. Static faces. Janky movements. Action lines because how else are you going to convey movement when you are not actually animating it? Little cartoon tear drops floating next to somebody's head because drawing emotions on someones face is too hard. That kind of thing.

It doesn't matter if you get 100 different artists to create shows in their distinct artistic style if they are all in the anime style.


At that point you just have an issue with anime tropes though, that's different than animation style or the way they design characters (which I feel like is usually what people mean when they say anime style). I totally understand being turned off by anime tropes. I don't knock anyone for disliking something because it leans into them.

   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 LordofHats wrote:
Is it really necessary to engage in this? You don't have to like it but if we judge an entire genre by its lowest budget efforts, I think all of them come out pretty gakky :/

Not even genre, medium. It's like trying to say that of all movies ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
balmong7 wrote:
Yeah but all the ANIME style. You know, low frame rates. beautifully rendered still images that someone will talk over. Static faces. Janky movements. Action lines because how else are you going to convey movement when you are not actually animating it? Little cartoon tear drops floating next to somebody's head because drawing emotions on someones face is too hard. That kind of thing.

90% of everything (at least) is gak, be it ANIME, western animation or interpretative dance.

Thinking "it's ANIME,so it's crap" says more about you than about ANIME.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 16:04:43


 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






balmong7 wrote:
chromedog wrote:

It's not a dislike of animation per se.

I just don't like the animation styles used that were shown in the teaser/trailers. I also didn't particularly care for the Tartakovsky clone wars minisodes (the "Samurai Jack" aesthetic).
In the same way I didn't care for about 80% of the EU and very little of the new EU novels appeal to me, either.


That's fair. I was surprised that all the styles would be a miss for someone. But I totally get that. I was just curious to hear you elaborate.

 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah but all the ANIME style. You know, low frame rates. beautifully rendered still images that someone will talk over. Static faces. Janky movements. Action lines because how else are you going to convey movement when you are not actually animating it? Little cartoon tear drops floating next to somebody's head because drawing emotions on someones face is too hard. That kind of thing.

It doesn't matter if you get 100 different artists to create shows in their distinct artistic style if they are all in the anime style.


At that point you just have an issue with anime tropes though, that's different than animation style or the way they design characters (which I feel like is usually what people mean when they say anime style). I totally understand being turned off by anime tropes. I don't knock anyone for disliking something because it leans into them.



See I wouldn't call the low frame count, or anything they do to accommodate it, a trope. Anime... which is just Japanese cartoons... Purposefully cut corners to reduce cost. And then it made a crap load of money and they KEPT doing the cost cutting measures. That's not a trope. At the point where they no longer need to it's an artistic decision. Examples that DON'T do that that prove the point? Akira, everything by Studio Ghibili. They maintain a anime style of art while ditching all the artistic choices everyone else always makes. Including the ones in that preview.

A Trope on the other hand would be the Tell, don't Show style of story telling. Where characters have long monologues of nonsense to explain to the audience the themes and plot. THAT is a trope of Anime. Also something I dislike. It's been like 80 years. fething learn how to tell a story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Albertorius wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
Is it really necessary to engage in this? You don't have to like it but if we judge an entire genre by its lowest budget efforts, I think all of them come out pretty gakky :/

Not even genre, medium. It's like trying to say that of all movies ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
balmong7 wrote:
Yeah but all the ANIME style. You know, low frame rates. beautifully rendered still images that someone will talk over. Static faces. Janky movements. Action lines because how else are you going to convey movement when you are not actually animating it? Little cartoon tear drops floating next to somebody's head because drawing emotions on someones face is too hard. That kind of thing.

90% of everything (at least) is gak, be it ANIME, western animation or interpretative dance.

Thinking "it's ANIME,so it's crap" says more about you than about ANIME.


The things I am talking about don't show up in 90% of anime. They show up in 99.9% of anime.

The only examples I have ever seen that break the mold are again, Studio Ghibli and Akira for the animation and most but not all of Cowboy Beebop for the story.

Otherwise, like it or not. Good or not. There is better animation in Peppa Pig and better story telling in "If you give a Mouse a Cookie" than just shy of 100% of all anime. Thats not saying I like or dislike any of those stories more or less. It's saying from a technical story telling and animating perspective Anime is over half a century behind.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 16:27:33



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Lance845 wrote:
Anime... which is just Japanese cartoons... Purposefully cut corners to reduce cost.


Everything cuts corners where they can to reduce costs and half the things your complaining about are true of both high and low budget animation projects from inside and outside of Japan.

You think character designs in Avatar leaned heavily on cartoony proportions just to achieve a certain aesthetic? It was easy to draw and cheaper than more detailed designs and they used the money saved on that to produce more dynamic scenes.

And then it made a crap load of money and they KEPT doing the cost cutting measures.


That's because the profit margins in the industry are actually pretty low unless you produce something big. Most anime studios squeeze by year-to-year. Not everyone can fall back on Gunpla and Saber figurines to make millions. A lot of animes will only ever generate a small profit from advertisement, DVD sales, and some merch. Many of them are little more than aired advertisements for a manga or light novel series (which is what people are actually trying to make money from).

The franchises that can boast bigger profits are usually the ones most of your complaints don't apply to at all. See Unlimited Budget Works for an example, pretty sure they actually burned their investors on this one cause future series in the franchise have not be up to par... Actually this happened a lot in 2015 it was a weirdly high quality year for visuals now that I think about it. EDIT: Then again, maybe they're just putting all the money into the intros for Fate/Grand Order cause those things are stupidly quality for what they are.

That's not a trope. At the point where they no longer need to it's an artistic decision. Examples that DON'T do that that prove the point? Akira, everything by Studio Ghibili. They maintain a anime style of art while ditching all the artistic choices everyone else always makes. Including the ones in that preview.


Honestly, this just tells me your extremely unfamiliar with the genre/medium/whatever we call it. Akira and Ghibili are famous in the west. They're not the only game in town and they're far from the only ones who produce that level of work. They're just the ones who hit it big enough to see official global releases into theaters. It's only in the past few years that we've started seeing more films getting big western releases and even then most of them are releasing on streaming sites. I think Promare was the last big budget film to actually take a stab at a theatrical release in the states in conjunction with it's Japanese release.

And even with the streaming stuff, it's like they hide it on the platforms. Unless you really go looking specifically you'd never find A Silent Voice on Netflix under the cheap CGI crap they keep flooding the platform with.

A Trope on the other hand would be the Tell, don't Show style of story telling.


Everyone quotes this line but they've done it so much I'm convinced it's just a way of buttering up a personal opinion about what they do and don't like to try and make something subjective appear objective. Anime isn't really anymore guilty than other kinds of video entertainment in this department even when talking about series like Psycho-Pass that lean heavily into watching two characters sit in a room and engage in exposition about society. You know. Like a whole bunch of shows do.

Where characters have long monologues of nonsense to explain to the audience the themes and plot. THAT is a trope of Anime.


That's certainly true, but do you actually watch anything else this critically? I suspect if you did, you'd notice this is hardly a unique trait of anime. Have you seen Pulp Fiction? It's basically nothing but people talking at each other.

Also something I dislike. It's been like 80 years. fething learn how to tell a story.


Wow. Kind of getting a bit racist about it, don't you think? EDIT: Never mind the sheer ignorance about the history of animation here. You'd almost think there's been no back and forth between east and west when there's been mountains of it.

The things I am talking about don't show up in 90% of anime. They show up in 99.9% of anime.


You're seriously showing that you don't watch anime here. Which is fine. Don't if you don't wanna. But come on. Really?

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 21:53:46


   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Yeesh. I didn't think there was this much irrational hatred for anime on this sub-forum. I get it has a bad rep due to some of the less tasteful aspects associated with it and the fact that now its become more mainstream in the West its become "cool" to hate on it, but just like any other form of storytelling it has its ups and downs. This is coming from a guy who was raised in one of the golden ages of western cartoons in the 90's with Batman: TAS, Justice League, Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, and other later stuff like Venture Bros. But then you also have to acknowledge terrible shows like Johnny Test and the countless horrible Family Guy clones like Crash Canyon and the Cleveland Show.
If you go by the worst denominator of anything then you're going to pretty much hate most of humanity's entertainment industry.

100% agreed with what LordofHats said though, people who say anime as a medium as a whole is garbage has never bothered to actually watch stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood.
   
Made in us
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USA

 Grimskul wrote:
100% agreed with what LordofHats said though, people who say anime as a medium as a whole is garbage has never bothered to actually watch stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood.


And I'd consider FAB to mostly be slightly above average except for a few scenes where they really shelled out the cash to make the set pieces look great. Which is becoming more and more of a thing. Example, all of Fate/Apocrypha episode 23;




I wish I knew how much individual episodes cost, because this 4 minutes is better than a lot of feature films, almost the entire episode is on par, and its tucked at the end of a 26 episode series that was above average but not super noteworthy for most of its run >.> Ever since Naruto banked up to make Kakashi's final fight with Obito look good, more series have been finding ways to squeeze their budgets to make the big set pieces pop even if the rest of the show is nothing to write home about.

Nevermind that a few frames of animation in the episode show the writers and animators did more research into Greek Mythology than most people will do in their entire lives, and the only way to even notice it is to read a blog post where the writer explained it (or to have read the original novel, the TV series didn't bother expositing on most of the characters in Apocrypha, which was arguably an issue it ran into because some of the character's specific motivations were hard to discern with the lack of exposition on some very harsh reading between the lines).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/24 00:01:12


   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 LordofHats wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
100% agreed with what LordofHats said though, people who say anime as a medium as a whole is garbage has never bothered to actually watch stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood.


And I'd consider FAB to mostly be slightly above average except for a few scenes where they really shelled out the cash to make the set pieces look great. Which is becoming more and more of a thing. Example, all of Fate/Apocrypha episode 23;




I wish I knew how much individual episodes cost, because this 4 minutes is better than a lot of feature films, almost the entire episode is on par, and its tucked at the end of a 26 episode series that was above average but not super noteworthy for most of its run >.> Ever since Naruto banked up to make Kakashi's final fight with Obito look good, more series have been finding ways to squeeze their budgets to make the big set pieces pop even if the rest of the show is nothing to write home about.

Nevermind that a few frames of animation in the episode show the writers and animators did more research into Greek Mythology than most people will do in their entire lives, and the only way to even notice it is to read a blog post where the writer explained it (or to have read the original novel, the TV series didn't bother expositing on most of the characters in Apocrypha, which was arguably an issue it ran into because some of the character's specific motivations were hard to discern with the lack of exposition on some very harsh reading between the lines).


Yeah, I was mentioning more for FMA:B more for its execution in its storytelling and how it is one of the few series where I didn't find a character too gratuitous or annoying as a caricature. In terms of animation quality, ufotable did a fantastic job doing Demon Slayer: Mugen Train during the fight between Rengoku and Akaza, the soundtrack is a real banger too.
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






See, I HAVE watched Brotherhood, in it's entirety. Ive seen a LOT of Anime in my youth and I am friends with people who like anime and show me stuff on occasion. I have seen the remake evangelion movies, the original evangelion. Record of the Lodoss Wars. I watched the crap the rolled out on Adult Swim including YuYu Hakusho, Inuyasha, Rirori Kenshin. Some people made me watch some of that garbage Naruto. As a kid me and my brother had the entirety of Dragonball, Z, GT, and the movies including the one where Gokus decendant kid hung out with some dinosaurs and turned super saiyan to trounce a trex. I tried 3 times and could not for the life of me get through the first 15 minutes of Bacano.

I NEVER said bad animation didn't exist in other places. I am saying as a rule it exists in Anime. The budget of this anime-SW series isn't loosing anyone any dollars for doing actual smooth animations. They are just CHOOSING to not do it. I never said exposition doesn't exist in other mediums or that exposition is itself bad. I said Anime does it in terrible ways.

And lets be clear here. There is NOTHING racist about being critical of a particular form of art for it's technical merits. Where a french company mimicked it to make Code Lyoko they bought all the same criticisms onto their animation style as well. My issues are not with Japanese people. It's with Anime.

I went to go see a Ghost in the Shell movie in theaters years ago. And I remember a scene where the guy with robot eyes was driving in the car with someone else. A few moments of silence before "...What is a soul? And if a soul can exist inside of a machine then when is a machine a man? When do we have a right to pass judgement... blah blah blah."

Pulp Fiction is a movie made up mostly of people having conversations. Those conversations are not directly asking the audience the questions posed by the theme of the movie. Do you honestly not see the difference?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/24 00:26:08



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

There is NOTHING racist about being critical of a particular form of art for it's technical merits


Yeah that was hyperbolic. Sorry.

I'm just having a hard time with this '80 years and they can't tell a good story' thing while rolled up with an extremely narrow range of series, most of which are decades old and are unquestionably better than their contemporaries from the same time. You're complaining about Dragonball but while anime was generating Dragonball western animation was making He-Man and that's just not a contest. Dragonball was better. Storyboard. Animation. Everything. I'd credit the anime craze in the mid-90s with forcing a lot of western studios to step up their game by the 2000s because episodic toy commercials weren't keeping up with imports that were also toy commercials but actually had some meat to go with them. feth, the Pokemon TV series, which is just a toy commercial, had more going for it than most of its immediate competitors at the time and that show is still low effort 20 years later.

And a lot of the early anime we got over here was either a few years old already when we got it (Dragon Ball) or cutting edge at the time (Evangelion/Cowboy Bebop).

And animation budgets were even worse then than they are now.

You're spitting some hottake level stuff that kind of hinges on not liking something and having a very shallow base of knowledge confined mostly to 2 decades. That's a flimsy basis for something as sweeping as characterizing 80 years. I could easily make these same sweeping generalizations about anything and they be equally nonsensical.

 Lance845 wrote:
Do you honestly not see the difference?


Not particularly. For most of your criticisms actually.

A conversation between two people is trying to engage the audience as much as an internal monologue is. One might work better for some people, or both, or neither. There's nothing objectively wrong with an internal monologue from a writing perspective. It's certainly not the style of western media (except when making a gag) but yeah, I'm not seeing a meaningful difference. Probably depends on what's being talked about. Those internal monologues can get pretty word soupy when no one is trying. Other times they provide important context we'd otherwise lack.

Nevermind that my actual given example was that characters sitting statically and talking (like in Psycho-Pass) or chewing the scenery while they do it isn't a particularly anime trait, not as much as you've tried to make it out to be. A lot of your criticisms come down to accusations that anime is cheap (sometimes it is) and low effort (sometimes it is), but that's not really a baring on quality and there isn't a video media style on Earth that doesn't try to shave money off it's budget by cutting corners where it can. Sometimes that's a movie that mostly consists of people in cars and cafes chatting at one another because that's what the production can afford. Other times it's someone on a hill looking at some scenery and monologuing about the meaning of life because that's what the production can afford. I see no important differences here that aren't primarily stylistic.

EDIT: There is probably a cultural basis for the trend in that breaking the fourth wall for any reason other than comedy is usually seen as 'bad' in Western narrative traditions, while it's generally not seen as a big deal in Japan (traditional theater there I know tries to directly involve the audience in the 'experience' of the performance), but I think that's a pretty subjective standard in itself. I can see it as a barrier to enjoying anime since these kinds of monologues can be seen as fourth wall breaking but I've never had issue with it so it might be a matter of acquired taste or different SOD expectations.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/24 01:18:27


   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 LordofHats wrote:
There is NOTHING racist about being critical of a particular form of art for it's technical merits


Yeah that was hyperbolic. Sorry.


Apologies accepted.

I'm just having a hard time with this '80 years and they can't tell a good story' thing


This isn't "they can't tell a good story" There are GOOD stories in there. This is poor story telling technique. I LIKE the Arthurian legends. But if you ever actually read them it's complete gak story telling. There is a difference. And that difference comes from being written hundreds of years ago.

while rolled up with an extremely narrow range of series, most of which are decades old and are unquestionably better than their contemporaries from the same time. You're complaining about Dragonball but while anime was generating Dragonball western animation was making He-Man and that's just not a contest. Dragonball was better. Storyboard. Animation. Everything. I'd credit the anime craze in the mid-90s with forcing a lot of western studios to step up their game by the 2000s because episodic toy commercials weren't keeping up with imports that were also toy commercials but actually had some meat to go with them. feth, the Pokemon TV series, which is just a toy commercial, had more going for it than most of its immediate competitors at the time and that show is still low effort 20 years later.


The majority of the studios that did the actual animation of those 80s series were eastern companies. American companies would outsource to those companies. It's not like Transformers is an American thing. But while He-Man was a made for cheap as gak toy commercials, western animation was also doing this..










There is a SIGNIFICANT difference in the quality of ANIMATION that was going on in both cinema and TV that simply wasn't in anime. Akira won awards and gained attention BECAUSE the creator decided to up the frame rate and improve the animation to a more western standard. Anime as a whole is not the cheap nothing of shows that was He-Man and the other Saturday morning toy commercials. A lot of it is geared towards more mature narratives. They just don't invest in it like it is.

And a lot of the early anime we got over here was either a few years old already when we got it (Dragon Ball) or cutting edge at the time (Evangelion/Cowboy Bebop).

And animation budgets were even worse then than they are now.


Agree on the budgets. The budgets are gak. Thats part of the problem. Them not having a budget is not an excuse for not having a budget. Saying anime is cheaply done means just that. It's cheaply done. It doesn't get a pass because it's cheaply done.

You're spitting some hottake level stuff that kind of hinges on not liking something and having a very shallow base of knowledge confined mostly to 2 decades. That's a flimsy basis for something as sweeping as characterizing 80 years. I could easily make these same sweeping generalizations about anything and they be equally nonsensical.


See my above examples. Look up the animation in classic cartoons. Loony Tunes and Disney. Popeye. Go all the way back to the 50s examples. Chart the actual growth and advancement over 80 years. Then go back to Astroboy. One of if not the first Anime. And chart the advancement over there. How much has changed? The still images sure are prettier. The colors better. Agreed. But the animation? Naw. 99.9% it's the same old gak.

 Lance845 wrote:
Do you honestly not see the difference?


Not particularly. For most of your criticisms actually.

A conversation between two people is trying to engage the audience as much as an internal monologue is. One might work better for some people, or both, or neither. There's nothing objectively wrong with an internal monologue from a writing perspective. It's certainly not the style of western media (except when making a gag) but yeah, I'm not seeing a meaningful difference. Probably depends on what's being talked about. Those internal monologues can get pretty word soupy when no one is trying. Other times they provide important context we'd otherwise lack.


::shrugs:: I can respect thats your take. I have a very different opinion between the 2. And I have seen enough anime (and I will not be listing the entire library of anime I have seen as though to prove my cred) to see it happen over and over and over again from studio to studio to studio that I find it a trope of the entire genre.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:

EDIT: There is probably a cultural basis for the trend in that breaking the fourth wall for any reason other than comedy is usually seen as 'bad' in Western narrative traditions, while it's generally not seen as a big deal in Japan (traditional theater there I know tries to directly involve the audience in the 'experience' of the performance), but I think that's a pretty subjective standard in itself. I can see it as a barrier to enjoying anime since these kinds of monologues can be seen as fourth wall breaking but I've never had issue with it so it might be a matter of acquired taste or different SOD expectations.


Shakespeare regularly broke the 4th wall in his plays for the same reason. I don't see the monologues as 4th wall breaking. I see them as unnatural conversations whose only purpose in the script is to tell the audience the thing they should be showing us.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/24 01:32:57



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Lance845 wrote:


Spoiler:









These are good, but don't you think that's moving the goal post?

If we're looking at movies, then at the same time most of these were being made we're talking about Akira, Nausica, and Grave of the Fireflies. As much as I love classics from the 80s like NIMH and Black Cauldron, I like Grave of the Fireflies and Char's Counter-Attack more. Movies only need to run for 90-120 minutes. They usually come out better than contemporary television series. You're still comparing the best of western animation to the worst of anime. I could compare the likes of Dragon Ball Z Dead Zone to the Heathcliff movie and get a similar result in reverse. Of course, no one remembers the Heathcliff movie cause no one remembers Heathcliff XD

How much has changed?


A lot if you bother to look.

You're seriously going to straight face say you don't see a difference between these?







I mean, okay. It probably would be a waste to list what anime's you've seen. I wouldn't believe you.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/24 01:43:28


   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






No. It's not shifting goal posts. It's exactly the thing I said before. Just because I wasn't understood doesn't change the point I was making to a new shifted point.

This is what I want you to do when you look at that anime clip. Or even the one posted earlier. I want you to look at when the hair is flowing in the wind or they are walking. I want you to count how many frames are actually there. How many unique drawings. And then i want you to see how they just loop those same few frames over and over again. It's like... 4 frames max of hair movement.Maybe 5 for the cloak flowing in the wind. Then it's the same 5 frames in repeat. Watch that guy turn and start walking. Look at how it takes LITERALLY 3 frames. 3 still images to go from his 3/4 post to walking towards the screen. Maybe another 3 for the walking animation which is looped a second time before cutting to the side by side. It's like watching an 8bit FF video game where the character has 3 frames (left foot forward, standing, right foot forward) and they just instantly switch between them. "Good" anime is every bit as janky.

Your right. it's not the same as Astroboy. Astroboy was BETTER animated. At least you can say it's old as feth for why they are looping the animation but at least they ACTUALLY animated the motions entirely so that they were smooth.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/24 02:01:03



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
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USA

 Lance845 wrote:
And then i want you to see how they just loop those same few frames over and over again.


...and?

Every work of animation without big budgets makes use of stock footage, poses, loops, and mirroring. Even shows with big budgets sometimes end up using stock and still use loops and mirroring. Movies do it. Maybe not CGI productions that have become more common for western animation, but that stuff isn't exactly pushing any quality benchmarks either in its own ways. That's not an anime thing and that's not even the thing that strikes me the most. This is such an absurd standard I'm baffled you'd only pick anime out as a target, how do you watch anything animated if those are the things that bug you?

Until we hit the gratuitous absurdity of Gundam Seed Destiny where entire episodes are made of stock, I fail to see a reason to knock anime specifically for bog standard practices that aren't remotely unique to it. And everyone knocks Gundam Seed Destiny for its over use of stock, it was already meme 13 episodes into the show.

Astroboy was BETTER animated.


Wow...Alrighty then.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/24 02:15:20


   
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And it's janky, poorly animated and bad. Technically. From a technical stand point of this is an animation and thus it is using pictures to convey motion.

the 3 frames creates jittery choppy motion. Again, look at that bugs bunny clip. Watch daffys bill spin, especially when it starts slowing down. Count the frames there.

Studio Ghibli. Great job. High frame rate. Good smooth animations. Akira, again. Great work. Ground breaking for not just the quality of the animation but the beauty of the imagery.

That gak you just posted as an example? Clearly better individual drawings than Astroboy. Animated like garbage.

And going back to the SW subject at hand, budget is not an excuse. So why is it just as choppy? Because it's the anime style to do so. Even if background elements are moving out of sync so they actually need more frames to animate it then they are using for the character they STILL make in low quality on purpose. Because thats anime!

This is a list of anime coming out in 2020. Not movies. All tv shows. All choppy, cheap, animation. Low frame rates. Mostly long shots of still images.



And here is a compilation of songs from Centaurworld that came out a couple weeks ago. While the character design of the human is clearly anime inspired. The animation is fething MILES beyond anything in that first video.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/24 02:36:28



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
And going back to the SW subject at hand, budget is not an excuse. So why is it just as choppy? Because it's the anime style to do so. Even if background elements are moving out of sync so they actually need more frames to animate it then they are using for the character they STILL make in low quality on purpose. Because thats anime!


I think it's fairly safe to say at this point you're definitely not in the target audience.

Though to be fair they might not have a target audience. The project is probably as much predicated on "anime = popular, thus star wars anime will be popular" logic as anything. I'm not convinced Disney actually has a plan for the franchise anymore beyond throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. Though this probably isn't much of a risk. If I learned anything from EA's Battlefront remakes, it's that even a flop with Star Wars slapped on it will still sell enough to turn a profit.

Actually, feth I was just talking about how EA needed to wait till 2018 (around there) to finally turn a profit on The Old Republic earlier today. Game sank like it was built by the cast of Giligan's Island but wait long enough and the thing still made EA money.

   
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 Grimskul wrote:
Yeesh. I didn't think there was this much irrational hatred for anime on this sub-forum. I get it has a bad rep due to some of the less tasteful aspects associated with it and the fact that now its become more mainstream in the West its become "cool" to hate on it, but just like any other form of storytelling it has its ups and downs. This is coming from a guy who was raised in one of the golden ages of western cartoons in the 90's with Batman: TAS, Justice League, Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, and other later stuff like Venture Bros. But then you also have to acknowledge terrible shows like Johnny Test and the countless horrible Family Guy clones like Crash Canyon and the Cleveland Show.
If you go by the worst denominator of anything then you're going to pretty much hate most of humanity's entertainment industry.

100% agreed with what LordofHats said though, people who say anime as a medium as a whole is garbage has never bothered to actually watch stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood.


A lot of the time those most negative on anime are folks pushing back because they've grown tired of having to deal with hard care anime fans who can't shut up about it and insist EVERYTHING should be anime.

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 LordofHats wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
And going back to the SW subject at hand, budget is not an excuse. So why is it just as choppy? Because it's the anime style to do so. Even if background elements are moving out of sync so they actually need more frames to animate it then they are using for the character they STILL make in low quality on purpose. Because thats anime!


I think it's fairly safe to say at this point you're definitely not in the target audience.

Though to be fair they might not have a target audience. The project is probably as much predicated on "anime = popular, thus star wars anime will be popular" logic as anything. I'm not convinced Disney actually has a plan for the franchise anymore beyond throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. Though this probably isn't much of a risk. If I learned anything from EA's Battlefront remakes, it's that even a flop with Star Wars slapped on it will still sell enough to turn a profit.

Actually, feth I was just talking about how EA needed to wait till 2018 (around there) to finally turn a profit on The Old Republic earlier today. Game sank like it was built by the cast of Giligan's Island but wait long enough and the thing still made EA money.


Whatever happened to that Golden Age thing they were pitching? Disney's plan for SWs should have been going all in on getting the feth away from everything that came before.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
Whatever happened to that Golden Age thing they were pitching? Disney's plan for SWs should have been going all in on getting the feth away from everything that came before.


Do you mean the High Republic? No idea. I tried the first book and got bored out of my mind so I bailed. A quick internet search says they're still publishing but I've not bothered to try and find a point of entry or anything hidden in that that's worth the time *shrug*

I have too many books on my plate anyway. For once, might as well not add to the list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/24 03:27:02


   
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 Lance845 wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
And going back to the SW subject at hand, budget is not an excuse. So why is it just as choppy? Because it's the anime style to do so. Even if background elements are moving out of sync so they actually need more frames to animate it then they are using for the character they STILL make in low quality on purpose. Because thats anime!


I think it's fairly safe to say at this point you're definitely not in the target audience.

Though to be fair they might not have a target audience. The project is probably as much predicated on "anime = popular, thus star wars anime will be popular" logic as anything. I'm not convinced Disney actually has a plan for the franchise anymore beyond throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. Though this probably isn't much of a risk. If I learned anything from EA's Battlefront remakes, it's that even a flop with Star Wars slapped on it will still sell enough to turn a profit.

Actually, feth I was just talking about how EA needed to wait till 2018 (around there) to finally turn a profit on The Old Republic earlier today. Game sank like it was built by the cast of Giligan's Island but wait long enough and the thing still made EA money.


Whatever happened to that Golden Age thing they were pitching? Disney's plan for SWs should have been going all in on getting the feth away from everything that came before.



yeah the high republic';s still around just..... yeah nothing about it grabs me as partiuclarly intreasting. I read the first book and neither of the evil threats really inspires me.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
The things I am talking about don't show up in 90% of anime. They show up in 99.9% of anime.

Right... I see there's no need to continue the discussion, here. Maybe this as a last point:




But seriously, go see movies with an actual budget, for anime with "better" animation. Anything by Ghibli, obviously, but also most Production IG, Trigger, Madhouse or MAPPA movies, Gundam the Origin, Unicorn or Hathaway, all of the new Yamato Stuff, anything at all by Makoto Shinkai or the sadly departed Satoshi Kon... you know, the equivalent stuff to the Disney or Don Bluth Productions stuff you were posting before.

For example:


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/24 07:51:12


 
   
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Rumours that Season 3 of the Mandalorian will be the last but the overall story will be spun out into other shows like Ahsoka it’s just that Din Djarin won’t be the focus anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/24 16:06:06


 
   
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 DaveC wrote:
Rumours that Season 3 of the Mandalorian will be the last but the overall story will be spun out into other shows like Ahsoka it’s just that Din Djarin won’t be the focus anymore.

I would be okay with that. I'd personally prefet they end their stories where they logically end rather than trying to string them out.

Not sure I want more Ahsoka, even if I like her very much as a character. It will very much depend on what they do.
   
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 DaveC wrote:
Rumours that Season 3 of the Mandalorian will be the last but the overall story will be spun out into other shows like Ahsoka it’s just that Din Djarin won’t be the focus anymore.


Makes sense to some extent. Grogu has been delivered to Luke and now its just the conflict surrounding the darksaber and Mandalore left. I could see maybe two seasons depending on if they try and keep filler, but I feel that will be harder to do now that Din no longer has his delivery quest. I could also see this as part of the struggle between Filoni/Favreau vs Kathleen Kennedy when it comes to controlling the SW output of shows.
   
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 Albertorius wrote:
 DaveC wrote:
Rumours that Season 3 of the Mandalorian will be the last but the overall story will be spun out into other shows like Ahsoka it’s just that Din Djarin won’t be the focus anymore.

I would be okay with that. I'd personally prefet they end their stories where they logically end rather than trying to string them out.

Not sure I want more Ahsoka, even if I like her very much as a character. It will very much depend on what they do.


Ashoka is basicly going to be the live action SW Rebels sequal, tying up the loose ends from that series

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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






So, all the episodes are up. And so far, it’s challenging my low tolerance for anime in a positive way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First 5 are pretty awesome.

6th is really trying me. Others may have a more favourable opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Definite praise though? It’s expanded the Galaxy.

Sure these are non-canon, but they don’t feel non-canon. Well, apart from TO-B1.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/22 11:25:34


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1.) Meh on the artistic style they used, but I really want to know more about that dude’s story.

2.) Just fun. I enjoyed this one.

3.) 110% pure unadulterated over the top Trigger.

4.) Nice one to mellow out after the previous. The yellow saber was my favorite one.

5.) Interesting take on saber lore. The fights were really good, tied for my favorites.

6.) Eh. Cute, but didn’t really work for me.

7.) My other favorite one for the fights. The finishing move was the coolest.

8.) This episode is the embodiment of the dad not wanting to adopt the dog meme. It didn’t manage to make me particularly care enough about the characters though.

9.) This one was kind of boring, but the ending was intriguing.

All in all these did not feel like a series of one shots but rather like a bunch of pilot episodes, all leaving stuff distinctly open if not blatant cliffhangers. Have they said if we should expect more? It feels like something where they see which ones are the most popular and give them a series.

 
   
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Let me try.

TLDR: For people looking for a run down, The Ninth Jedi, The Duel, and the Elder are probably the best in the set. I think people might like them even if they don't like anime much. The Elder and the Ninth Jedi especially have a very straightforward and direct pitch that feels authentically Star Wars. Lop and Ocho, Village Bride, and The Twins lean more heavily onto the anime-ness, but are still quite good for what they are. I suspect Tatooine Rhapsody will be a love it/hate it short based entirely on how much one likes anime. T0-B1 and Akakiri are... Well they have interesting art and that's all I can muster to give them. The Duel is hard for me to qualify. It's very good, but has my least liked animation style. It leans hard into classical cinema motifs and in a very cool way, but I'm not sure skeptics will appreciate it. Worst case, nothing here is longer than 15 minutes.

The Duel

Spoiler:
Great story, good action. This animation style is very much not to my liking though. The classic samurai cinema elements were great and I liked that, but the clunky CGI is obvious and I just can't get into it. It was cool though seeing a very faithful adaptation of classic Japanese movie motifs recast directly into Star Wars. Pretty damn slick twist to it to and a very rapid achievement of mystique in short order. Like a classic Samurai or Western hero, the exact motives of the Vagabond are personal but obscure. Part of me wishes this story was a full film instead of a fifteen minute episode, which I suspect was the whole point XD


Tatooine Rhapsody

Spoiler:
This one was fun. This kind of authentic enthusiasm is great. The story wasn't nearly as compelling as most of the others but the energy was great and especially refreshing in Star Wars. It was nice to see something that doesn't end in some cliche good vs evil gun fight with laser swords.


The Twins

Spoiler:
I recognized Studio Trigger's style in the preview instantly and this was probably one of the ones I most looked forward too. I expected it to be bizarre, over the top, and crazy awesome. Never let it be said Studio Trigger can't deliver on the thing we love about them. The voice acting was unfortunately very not up to snuff imo and the delivery of the character's line just doesn't hold up to the crazy awesome. It's just a bit too generic. I was highly amused at how they used the hyperspace gimmick from TLJ in this one. When things are this stupidly over the top, it actually works. I feel like they even predicted people bitching about the saber duel in space because wtf is the droid wearing a helmet when the mammals lost theirs ages ago? The trolls XD


Village Bride

Spoiler:
I think my favorites in this set are the ones that tell stories I haven't seen in Star Wars before and this is one of them. Very unconventional Star Wars fair. That's a good thing here. The tattoos and 'one with nature' parts of the setting feel like a very unsubtle reference to Quinlan Vas. The planet is never named but I feel like it's supposed to be Kiffu. Also has an Ebon Hawk reference in it.


The Ninth Jedi

Spoiler:
Obvious pitch for a Samurai Seven remake but with Jedi. There's a literal pun in there. It's also cool to see a story explicitly stated to be far far in the future, long after the Jedi have long gone.

This might be my favorite one of the shorts. The animation and art in other shorts I think were less generic, but this one on the whole was the most well put together. Unsurprised it was I.G. behind it. That's basically their deal. A distinct setting. Immediately intriguing characters, good plot. Probably the short the suffers most from being a short and having a time crunch.

The take on Sabers was indeed very unique and interesting. This one more than any others seemed to be begging 'Please let us make a Star Wars series!'


T0-B1

Spoiler:
Every short collection has that one that not only can't stand up to the rest, but that just plain sucks in comparison and this is it. The only notable aspect of this episode is that it's an Astro-Boy homage and that's it. That's the short. Shockingly, the idea runs out of gas within the first few seconds and becomes very humdrum.


The Elder

Spoiler:
This one was good. While I like the more unconventional stories in this collection like a rock bad and Jedi Mononoke, seeing this very conventional kind of story in all its glory is just fantastic. There's nothing fancy here. It's just a straightforward story with some quick action and a simple but pleasant dynamic between the two heroes.


Lop & Ocho

Spoiler:
Along with the Ninth Jedi, this one seems to most be screaming 'please let us make a whole series.' I'd watch it though it's not nearly as good as many of the other snips. It does have some of the best animation in the set though. The plot is basically Star Wars Princess Mononoke (I know I made that comparison already XD) and it would probably make a great movie. One the one hand a Star Wars Bunny Girl feels like a pitch to the weebiest of weebs, but it's also cool to see a non-human main character for once. Amazing how we don't get anywhere near enough of those.

This plot is maybe the best and weakest part of the short. It's good imo, but it's also maybe the most embedded in anime narrative conventions.


Akakiri

Spoiler:
Both the entries by SARU are easily the weakest. Disappointing from the studio that made Ride Your Wave. Then again, that's the only thing they've made I'd call good so maybe it shouldn't be surprising. Both their shorts feel like something they really wanted to make, but they're weirdos who want weird things and those things seem made for an audience of them and themselves. They made some bold artistic choices I'll give them credit for, but everything was so boring that the art just couldn't carry it.


Overall

A lot of these shorts have an air of grey Sith about them, which I found refreshing after years of Lucas' black and white except not version of the force dominating the franchise. Seeing it so many times at once did get a bit repetitive though.

All in all these did not feel like a series of one shots but rather like a bunch of pilot episodes, all leaving stuff distinctly open if not blatant cliffhangers. Have they said if we should expect more? It feels like something where they see which ones are the most popular and give them a series.


I wouldn't be surprised if any ended up being followed up on if popular demand was there. Star Wars is all about printing money and honestly several of these could be expanded into movies, mini-series, or shows I'd be willing to watch. At the same time, I feel like it's worth pointing out open-ended conclusions is convention in Anime far more than western animation.

That said, The Ninth Jedi and I.G. are basically begging Disney to let them make a full production, and Lop and Ocho is an obvious pitch from Geno for a feature film. Like seriously. The little anime guy standing just off screen holding the sign 'please let us make more' is so obvious it would hurt if I didn't agree. The Ninth Jedi could extremely easily be the pilot for a full series.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/22 23:00:01


   
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If it helps, I really enjoyed Tattooine Rhapsody. It was just fun!

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