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Daemon Prince with Wings and Warp Time (*cough*Lash of Submission*cough*)
9 Berzerkers with Skull Champion toting Power Fist
Rhino with Extra Armor
9 Plague Marines with 2x Meltaguns and Champion toting Power Fist
Rhino
8 Chosen with 5x Meltaguns and Champion toting Power Fist
Rhino
7 Noise Marines with Blast Master and 6x Sonic Blasters
Defiler
Defiler

Basic idea is the two cult marine squads and their rhinos screen the Prince and the Defilers. Noise Marines provide the dakka for Long Range support. Chosen can deploy normally or outflank as needed, bringing meltaguns to deal with heavy armor as needed.

The Noise Marines feel out of place here, but I can't think of anything better to do with their points. One thing they do offer by staying at home is they can babysit an objective. If someone has a bright idea let me know.

The list feels small, but functional. There really isn't anything you NEED. Maybe make room for a Landraider for the Berserkers to give the list some real punch. If they are going to be using a Rhino, some Khorne Marked CSM are going to perform better, as they can shoot after disembarking and still pack a whallop.

Well, what are you trying to do here? Make a fun list or a competitive list? Or both?

If you want competitive, youve pretty much got it down aside from a few things.

Chosen are..."okay" on their own. Noise marines are "okay" on their own. If you drop both you can easily get 3 combi melta terminators for 105 points and 3 obliterators which both work by themselves. You dont need 15 point extra armour just incase the guy rolls a 2. This will pretty much give you the generic power list.

However, Im under the thought that having an army that syncs with itself is better than simply taking the power units. The fact is the list (which I pretty much played with for a long time, sans lash and plagues) is boring. I was boring myself out of the hobby because there is no thinking involved. While I never lost a game with the power list, I truly feel that you have little control over the game and it moreso depends on your opponent. Its not an easy list to beat, but its so basic that there is little you can work with. People (and armies) are starting to get better at countering it as well.

Im just trying to warn you now with my own experience of the list. Im tired of seeing this kind of list, and I dont want to even think of playing it again. Its a one trick pony and not creative in the least.

I hope that didnt come off as a flame or anything. Apologies if it did.

Night Lords wrote:Well, what are you trying to do here? Make a fun list or a competitive list? Or both?

If you want competitive, youve pretty much got it down aside from a few things.

Chosen are..."okay" on their own. Noise marines are "okay" on their own. If you drop both you can easily get 3 combi melta terminators for 105 points and 3 obliterators which both work by themselves. You dont need 15 point extra armour just incase the guy rolls a 2. This will pretty much give you the generic power list.

However, Im under the thought that having an army that syncs with itself is better than simply taking the power units. The fact is the list (which I pretty much played with for a long time, sans lash and plagues) is boring. I was boring myself out of the hobby because there is no thinking involved. While I never lost a game with the power list, I truly feel that you have little control over the game and it moreso depends on your opponent. Its not an easy list to beat, but its so basic that there is little you can work with. People (and armies) are starting to get better at countering it as well.

Im just trying to warn you now with my own experience of the list. Im tired of seeing this kind of list, and I dont want to even think of playing it again. Its a one trick pony and not creative in the least.

I hope that didnt come off as a flame or anything. Apologies if it did.

So what exactly are you advocating here? That I could 'power game' this list by trading the chosen for another squad of berserkers and the noise marines for additional plague marines?

I've never understood why lists have to be power builds or fun builds. Why can't a list be both? (I do appreciate that you asked if it was both though, I take it as a compliment) I've also never understood the mindset of 'this list is so powerful it plays itself. I don't think I just roll.' No matter how great the list is, not thinking will cost you the game. If winning is boring, maybe you should not play competitively.

I've been running something close to this list since 5edition came out. In 4 I started playing Iron Warriors with Oblit and Las Plas spam. Then I found the Berserker Glaive and never looked back. But with the new codex, I've been trying different cult units and making minor tweaks to my core. Lash Prince, Plague Marines and Oblits (which is the same core everyone complains about because they're either jealous or are hypocrites). I had also typically included Noise Marines with blastmaster for cheap babysitter unit (in this list I've upgraded them considerably) and Kharn and a Havoc squad of some sort. Usually Heavy Bolters, tried Flamers + Lash Sorceror but was unimpressed with them.

Extra Armor is not only useful for glancing 2s, but penetrating 4s and 5s. I only have it on the one rhino that carries the berserkers, because they NEED to be moving closer every turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkHound wrote:The list feels small, but functional. There really isn't anything you NEED. Maybe make room for a Landraider for the Berserkers to give the list some real punch. If they are going to be using a Rhino, some Khorne Marked CSM are going to perform better, as they can shoot after disembarking and still pack a whallop.

They have the shooting, but they lack WS 5 and Furious Charge. If you don't buy any special weapons, but just swap in CSM with IoK, it's essentially 3pts per model for WS +1 and Furious Charge. I've actually considered doing this but pairing them with Kharn (who is amazing) because if he kills a CSM its less points than a Berzerker

Yeah, I used to run the Berserkers out of the Battleforce when I first started. After I got smart and learned the ways of the game, with my hind-sight I can tell you Berserkers are Elites masquerading as Troops. They take the pampering of a Landraider to be used truely effectively. Khorne Marked CSM are better for everything you need Troops for (holding objectives, shooting), while not taking away from being great Assaulting units when you need them.

I'm not sure how to take the "Elites masquerading as Troops" comment. Personally, I think that's AWESOME. It speaks to how powerful the unit is, while maintaining all the bonuses of being a Troop choice (capture control objectives). I've never fielded a Land Raider, and so long as the Rhino and its passengers aren't vaped on the first turn, the Berserkers always succeed at doing massive damage to the enemy. And let's face it, if it was vaped on turn 1, those IoK marines would be too.

More to the point, Berserkers help me win games vs. Orks and Space Wolves (which I see a lot of in my area). Yeah if you fight IG or Witch Hunters or Tau all the time, Chaos Marines will kick their butts in HtH just as easily as Berserkers for less points. But if you draw some really tier 1 assault armies, you'll want the Berserkers.

Also, does the list I posted above really need two more melta guns? I'd think that 7 would be plenty That's the only advantage I can see to switching them to IoK Marines. If you have something else planned for them please elaborate.

What I meant by that was that you have to lavish support on them as though they were Elites. If they don't get the charge, they are only going to fight just better than those IoK Marines, but are more expensive. The problem with Rhinos and Berserkers is that you can't assault out of them, which is where they get their power. You have to wait, hiding behind the Rhino for a turn before you can unleash them. It isn't that they can't be effective in a Rhino, they just aren't going to be effective as they could be. With the Khorne Marines, you can drive up, Rapid Fire and then recieve a charge without it being really detrimental to the effectiveness of the unit.

Well you can charge out of a rhino. You can't move the rhino and then charge like a landraider could. turn one pop smoke, turn two exit rhino and assault. even if you don't have a target, you could stay in the rhino one more turn and not be charged. I see the advantage of the raider. I don't see the advantage of IoK marines other than special weapons. No offense, but I don't think you've used the Berserkers as well as you could have. They work perfectly fine in a rhino.

I have to chime in and say that my Berzerks out of a Rhino still work great provided they don't get vaped in turn 1. I also like giving them plasma pistols for an extra punch in case they're fighting Nobz or Terminators in assault. Knocking a couple of Termies out or wounding a couple of Nobz has turned the tide a few times. Of course a PF or PW is a must.

Not to plug my own list but if someone wouldn't mind taking another look I'd really appreciate more feedback as I'm still learning too.

Zerkers in Rhinos or LR's are epic. Very little can stand toe to toe with em in CC (especially with a power fist in the bunch). Defilers, personally, don't perform that well with all the mech hate running around. Its easily downed by lascannons, missile launchers, railguns, etc. And in CC it goes so slow most HQ's will take it down before you even get a swing off!

Personally I prefer Oblits over defilers and terminators in a LR if you could fit em. CSM termies rock, especially for how cost efficient they are!

Zid wrote:Zerkers in Rhinos or LR's are epic. Very little can stand toe to toe with em in CC (especially with a power fist in the bunch). Defilers, personally, don't perform that well with all the mech hate running around. Its easily downed by lascannons, missile launchers, railguns, etc. And in CC it goes so slow most HQ's will take it down before you even get a swing off!

Personally I prefer Oblits over defilers and terminators in a LR if you could fit em. CSM termies rock, especially for how cost efficient they are!

As a former Iron Warrior player, I love Oblits. But I was trying for something different in this list (not your standard lash plague oblit powerbuild). Don't know if you noticed it earlier, but I plan on screening the Defilers with the Rhinos. That will hopefully keep the lascannons and such away.

I'm hoping to play very aggressively with this list. Pretty much everything runs forward and forces the opponent to choose what will reach him in assault. None of his options are very good, as Defiler are difficult to overcome, Zerkers are 'epic' and the Demon Prince with warptime will eat squads. Plaguemarines open up anti-vehicle and countercharge options. And an outflanking unit with 5 meltaguns is pretty nice too. One day I will break down and put my landraider together to see what all the fuss is about. But I just see it getting picked on at 1500 because you can really only field one.

DJ66 wrote:

Zid wrote:Zerkers in Rhinos or LR's are epic. Very little can stand toe to toe with em in CC (especially with a power fist in the bunch). Defilers, personally, don't perform that well with all the mech hate running around. Its easily downed by lascannons, missile launchers, railguns, etc. And in CC it goes so slow most HQ's will take it down before you even get a swing off!

Personally I prefer Oblits over defilers and terminators in a LR if you could fit em. CSM termies rock, especially for how cost efficient they are!

As a former Iron Warrior player, I love Oblits. But I was trying for something different in this list (not your standard lash plague oblit powerbuild). Don't know if you noticed it earlier, but I plan on screening the Defilers with the Rhinos. That will hopefully keep the lascannons and such away.

I'm hoping to play very aggressively with this list. Pretty much everything runs forward and forces the opponent to choose what will reach him in assault. None of his options are very good, as Defiler are difficult to overcome, Zerkers are 'epic' and the Demon Prince with warptime will eat squads. Plaguemarines open up anti-vehicle and countercharge options. And an outflanking unit with 5 meltaguns is pretty nice too. One day I will break down and put my landraider together to see what all the fuss is about. But I just see it getting picked on at 1500 because you can really only field one.

Personally I only run lash prince because I run Khorne. That spell IMO was built to combine with khorne armys lol.

Anywho, I see the general idea behind it. I'm just not a fan of chosen because they are basically normal CSM with better weapons, so they have the same weaknesses. Also, after turn 1-2 if the rhinos or LR's are still standing whatever is in them will probably be out and hosing you, so those infiltrators won't help much. I can see the use against IG, Tau, and shooty Eldar lists, but thats about it.

I agree with your assessment of a DP with warptime. Its a great idea, good HQ killer in CC. But he'll get shot up easily so unless you screen em with Rhinos or the Defilers he'll be easy pickings (DP's have an issue against Eldar Rangers and things... stupid rending). And I also see what you wanna do with the Defilers. But MOST armys that are weak in CC will blow those ASAP. They're just as squishy as dreads. I love defilers, don't get me wrong, but even in CC most armys can down him with ease. I only really like them in a full-on Khorne list. But thats just me

Zid wrote:

DJ66 wrote:

Zid wrote:Zerkers in Rhinos or LR's are epic. Very little can stand toe to toe with em in CC (especially with a power fist in the bunch). Defilers, personally, don't perform that well with all the mech hate running around. Its easily downed by lascannons, missile launchers, railguns, etc. And in CC it goes so slow most HQ's will take it down before you even get a swing off!

Personally I prefer Oblits over defilers and terminators in a LR if you could fit em. CSM termies rock, especially for how cost efficient they are!

As a former Iron Warrior player, I love Oblits. But I was trying for something different in this list (not your standard lash plague oblit powerbuild). Don't know if you noticed it earlier, but I plan on screening the Defilers with the Rhinos. That will hopefully keep the lascannons and such away.

I'm hoping to play very aggressively with this list. Pretty much everything runs forward and forces the opponent to choose what will reach him in assault. None of his options are very good, as Defiler are difficult to overcome, Zerkers are 'epic' and the Demon Prince with warptime will eat squads. Plaguemarines open up anti-vehicle and countercharge options. And an outflanking unit with 5 meltaguns is pretty nice too. One day I will break down and put my landraider together to see what all the fuss is about. But I just see it getting picked on at 1500 because you can really only field one.

Personally I only run lash prince because I run Khorne. That spell IMO was built to combine with khorne armys lol.

Anywho, I see the general idea behind it. I'm just not a fan of chosen because they are basically normal CSM with better weapons, so they have the same weaknesses. Also, after turn 1-2 if the rhinos or LR's are still standing whatever is in them will probably be out and hosing you, so those infiltrators won't help much. I can see the use against IG, Tau, and shooty Eldar lists, but thats about it.

I agree with your assessment of a DP with warptime. Its a great idea, good HQ killer in CC. But he'll get shot up easily so unless you screen em with Rhinos or the Defilers he'll be easy pickings (DP's have an issue against Eldar Rangers and things... stupid rending). And I also see what you wanna do with the Defilers. But MOST armys that are weak in CC will blow those ASAP. They're just as squishy as dreads. I love defilers, don't get me wrong, but even in CC most armys can down him with ease. I only really like them in a full-on Khorne list. But thats just me

Yes I plan on screening the prince too. The wings will let him keep up with the rhinos and defilers. If said army spends all their shots shooting defilers, they're not shooting my prince or assault troops. I force them to choose what will contact their lines. But really, as long as some of my units get their (and they will because there are so many) it will be bad news for the other player.

I don't plan on infiltrating the chosen. Sure you set up last, but one Seize the Initiative or a quick redeploy by the opponent and they're left foot slogging towards nothing they'd like to shoot. I'll mount them in a rhino and outflank. Then I can come in off the board edge and catch a vehicle's flank with 5 meltaguns. So I think that makes them more survivable (being in reserve for several turns and not getting shot at, plus the rhino) and more flexible than infiltrating.

Sure I've had defilers get poped early on in the game. But if they survive the early game (counting on the screen and good deployment here) late game your opponent typically doesn't have much that can deal with them. Powerfists still have to roll a 4 to glance (assuming str 8) and if they glance, the defiler ignores most of the table. So any troop unit will get pwned by them. They can go toe to toe with other dreads. Really it's MCs and Thunderhammers that you've got to watch out for. And, I'm chaos. Who says I have to fight fair? Support a defiler with any other unit, and the combat quickly swings in my favor

DJ66 wrote:

Zid wrote:

DJ66 wrote:

Zid wrote:Zerkers in Rhinos or LR's are epic. Very little can stand toe to toe with em in CC (especially with a power fist in the bunch). Defilers, personally, don't perform that well with all the mech hate running around. Its easily downed by lascannons, missile launchers, railguns, etc. And in CC it goes so slow most HQ's will take it down before you even get a swing off!

Personally I prefer Oblits over defilers and terminators in a LR if you could fit em. CSM termies rock, especially for how cost efficient they are!

As a former Iron Warrior player, I love Oblits. But I was trying for something different in this list (not your standard lash plague oblit powerbuild). Don't know if you noticed it earlier, but I plan on screening the Defilers with the Rhinos. That will hopefully keep the lascannons and such away.

I'm hoping to play very aggressively with this list. Pretty much everything runs forward and forces the opponent to choose what will reach him in assault. None of his options are very good, as Defiler are difficult to overcome, Zerkers are 'epic' and the Demon Prince with warptime will eat squads. Plaguemarines open up anti-vehicle and countercharge options. And an outflanking unit with 5 meltaguns is pretty nice too. One day I will break down and put my landraider together to see what all the fuss is about. But I just see it getting picked on at 1500 because you can really only field one.

Personally I only run lash prince because I run Khorne. That spell IMO was built to combine with khorne armys lol.

Anywho, I see the general idea behind it. I'm just not a fan of chosen because they are basically normal CSM with better weapons, so they have the same weaknesses. Also, after turn 1-2 if the rhinos or LR's are still standing whatever is in them will probably be out and hosing you, so those infiltrators won't help much. I can see the use against IG, Tau, and shooty Eldar lists, but thats about it.

I agree with your assessment of a DP with warptime. Its a great idea, good HQ killer in CC. But he'll get shot up easily so unless you screen em with Rhinos or the Defilers he'll be easy pickings (DP's have an issue against Eldar Rangers and things... stupid rending). And I also see what you wanna do with the Defilers. But MOST armys that are weak in CC will blow those ASAP. They're just as squishy as dreads. I love defilers, don't get me wrong, but even in CC most armys can down him with ease. I only really like them in a full-on Khorne list. But thats just me

Yes I plan on screening the prince too. The wings will let him keep up with the rhinos and defilers. If said army spends all their shots shooting defilers, they're not shooting my prince or assault troops. I force them to choose what will contact their lines. But really, as long as some of my units get their (and they will because there are so many) it will be bad news for the other player.

I don't plan on infiltrating the chosen. Sure you set up last, but one Seize the Initiative or a quick redeploy by the opponent and they're left foot slogging towards nothing they'd like to shoot. I'll mount them in a rhino and outflank. Then I can come in off the board edge and catch a vehicle's flank with 5 meltaguns. So I think that makes them more survivable (being in reserve for several turns and not getting shot at, plus the rhino) and more flexible than infiltrating.

Sure I've had defilers get poped early on in the game. But if they survive the early game (counting on the screen and good deployment here) late game your opponent typically doesn't have much that can deal with them. Powerfists still have to roll a 4 to glance (assuming str 8) and if they glance, the defiler ignores most of the table. So any troop unit will get pwned by them. They can go toe to toe with other dreads. Really it's MCs and Thunderhammers that you've got to watch out for. And, I'm chaos. Who says I have to fight fair? Support a defiler with any other unit, and the combat quickly swings in my favor

Yeah I see your point. My only reservation is if they pop the chosens transport, or when you pop a vehicle, they will quickly make mince meat of the chosen squad because you have to get very close to your enemy to shoot the meltas. I like the idea of it, tho. Its like Eldar Fire Dragons (that have the same issue of disembarking and getting wasted lol). Tho you could move up and shoot 2 meltas out the top, which is always a nifty trick. My SM friend runs lascannon troops in all his rhinos and basically has like 7 lascannons shooting across the board :/

Anywho, if ya play some games let us know how this does!