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There's a lot of complaints about codecies and army books on Dakka, whether it's about imbalance, loss of flavour, or getting hit with the nerf bat. But just how much do you dislike GW's writers? Any in particular?

I despise Gav Thorpe for what he did to CSM, but his work on Vampire Counts and Dark Elves was really good. I can't help but feel he really hates CSM and screwed over the codex to spite us Chaos Legion players. I know I'm just being paranoid, but the contrast in his work is suspicious if you ask me.

I blame the man in charge... or would do if I knew who that was... so I just blame Jervis.

Depends entirely upon the playtesting I'd say. It's all done in-house now, due to horrendous leaks and misinformation happening when it was more open.

But as long as I can find a theme in a book that I like, I'm happy. To achieve that, there will be something in the background section which seizes the imagination. I then build my list around that concept. If the book is any cop, then I can do this. If it's bobbins, I can't.

I don't go out and buy every codex, because I don't intend upon playing every army in the game. I also don't expect people to cheat if it's a list I'm unfamiliar with; maybe I'm just naive and trusting. Point is, I don't know which writer writes which codex without cracking open the cover and looking. I don't' even know who wrote the DH 'dex, and I've been playing that thing for six years now...

That being said, I despise the homogenization of the game. The idea that I can't take 7 tactical marines. Removing units from updated codices because they didn't have a current model for it. Dropping entire units for no apparent reason. The dumbing down of the armory and wargear. Ostensibly, they do these things to streamline the game and makes things easier. Maybe they do it to make it more convenient for new players to get into the game. Maybe they do it to sell more models. I really don't know. What I do know is that taking away options and freedoms does not improve many things in life, 40K included.

I was going to pick at individual writers, but actually, the whole set of recent stuff is pretty blah. I kinda wish I had less 40k stuff so I wouldn't be so invested...

its funny that people (not always the ones here) complain about the armies being simplified and losing their unique rules.... yet at the same time complain about how there are conflicts with the way some rules are read and how complicated they are......its an incredably thin line that they have to walk to make it work.

Perfect example is the DH codex, many of the psychic powers and special abilities were writen with the Deamon codex in mind, but when it came time to fix the Deamon codex they had to ditch certain rules that the GKs took advantage of......now we pay 25 points for a SM that has no real advantage over any particular army and is still full price for powers that he cant use anymore.

I morn for the days when my Eldar could run and a sm couldn't, however I am also glad that they got rid of the "drifting skimmer" rule. You take the good with the bad.... I do agree that every army needs it certain rules that make them special, however, as we saw with the GK, sometimes a "common" ability is going to be more useful in the long run compared to a specific rule that could be cancled in just 3 years of its release.

Cheese Elemental wrote:There's a lot of complaints about codecies and army books on Dakka, whether it's about imbalance, loss of flavour, or getting hit with the nerf bat. But just how much do you dislike GW's writers? Any in particular?

I despise Gav Thorpe for what he did to CSM, but his work on Vampire Counts and Dark Elves was really good. I can't help but feel he really hates CSM and screwed over the codex to spite us Chaos Legion players. I know I'm just being paranoid, but the contrast in his work is suspicious if you ask me.

While there are loads of things that annoy me about various different codex changes, I find it a little simplistic to purely blame one person for those changes. Sure, there is a name on the cover but I find it hard to believe that one person is solely responsible for bringing that book to market. There must be others who are involved at the quality control level and involved in brainstorming ideas, and if so, then blame must just as squarely fall on those who playtest and proofread as well as the guy that wrote it.

What I dont really accept (and it was a point alluded to earlier in the thread) is the disappearance of units and models for no apparent reason. For example, I have returned to 40k after a break of 2 years or so and am appalled to find that my Black Templars devastator squad and whirlwind are no longer valid. I wouldnt mind if there was some sort of background to the change but what makes it criminal, IMHO, is that there is zero fluff explaining the change (or at least, none that I could find in the codex). I find myself wondering if they were removed not for gaming reasons but purely because someone forgot.

lol.... it took me 8 years to get my Harlequins back.......now I just need the Great Solitare as a special character in the new codex and I will be happy

filbert wrote:
While there are loads of things that annoy me about various different codex changes, I find it a little simplistic to purely blame one person for those changes. Sure, there is a name on the cover but I find it hard to believe that one person is solely responsible for bringing that book to market. There must be others who are involved at the quality control level and involved in brainstorming ideas, and if so, then blame must just as squarely fall on those who playtest and proofread as well as the guy that wrote it.

And you're quite right. Whilst each book is accredited to a lead writer the whole design team chip in and throw about ideas and concepts that are mixed together in the end. And then there is of course editorial/managerial interference and the added factor of what models are coming out or available to.

For example in the ( I think ) previous Empire army book the design team of that time were very happy to have Empire knights be S4. But someone above them in "rank" wasn't happy about this and threw his toys out of the pram and insisted that they had to stay at S3. There's an oblique reference to this in the credits somewhere if memory serves.

Oh, human error of course. I gather- see their inaugural battle report in WD-- that Sammael had a rule at one point that allowed him to fire his stormbolter on his jetbike as well. Somewhere along the line this was lost in cut and pasting errors and no one seemed to spot it until it was to late.

What I dont really accept (and it was a point alluded to earlier in the thread) is the disappearance of units and models for no apparent reason. For example, I have returned to 40k after a break of 2 years or so and am appalled to find that my Black Templars devastator squad and whirlwind are no longer valid. I wouldnt mind if there was some sort of background to the change but what makes it criminal, IMHO, is that there is zero fluff explaining the change (or at least, none that I could find in the codex). I find myself wondering if they were removed not for gaming reasons but purely because someone forgot.

IS this the book that has whirlwinds listed in the crusade force on the back cover ?

I think Gav should be made to redo the CSM dex under threat of death.

reds8n wrote:

IS this the book that has whirlwinds listed in the crusade force on the back cover ?

Haha, that's classic! I hadn't even noticed that before!

DJ Illuminati wrote:lol.... it took me 8 years to get my Harlequins back.......now I just need the Great Solitare as a special character in the new codex and I will be happy

He's there: Autarch with Jump Pack & Power Weapon

Not everybody wants to live in the magical land of 'Count-as', John.

DJ Illuminati wrote:its funny that people (not always the ones here) complain about the armies being simplified and losing their unique rules.... yet at the same time complain about how there are conflicts with the way some rules are read and how complicated they are......its an incredably thin line that they have to walk to make it work.

I understand that, but that is their job: playtest, find the conflicts/broken stuff, fix it, rinse and repeat.

Perfect example is the DH codex, many of the psychic powers and special abilities were writen with the Deamon codex in mind, but when it came time to fix the Deamon codex they had to ditch certain rules that the GKs took advantage of......now we pay 25 points for a SM that has no real advantage over any particular army and is still full price for powers that he cant use anymore.

I don't expect 100% backwards compatibilty between codices and editions, but some simple FAQs to update older stuff would be nice. The current FAQs are rubbish and everyone knows it.

the_Armyman wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:its funny that people (not always the ones here) complain about the armies being simplified and losing their unique rules.... yet at the same time complain about how there are conflicts with the way some rules are read and how complicated they are......its an incredably thin line that they have to walk to make it work.

I understand that, but that is their job: playtest, find the conflicts/broken stuff, fix it, rinse and repeat.

Perfect example is the DH codex, many of the psychic powers and special abilities were writen with the Deamon codex in mind, but when it came time to fix the Deamon codex they had to ditch certain rules that the GKs took advantage of......now we pay 25 points for a SM that has no real advantage over any particular army and is still full price for powers that he cant use anymore.

I don't expect 100% backwards compatibilty between codices and editions, but some simple FAQs to update older stuff would be nice. The current FAQs are rubbish and everyone knows it.

Oh i totaly agree with you there, we need bigger FAQs and more often.....

The only issue I see with GW playtesting every army is that it takes a special kind of demented person to find some of the rules "loop-holes" that some of these RAW kids find. Have you ever made/written/done something and thought it was fantastic and perfect and then one of your friends looks at it and finds some huge flaw with it. That may be what GW is doing.......they wrote the thing so it seems flawless in their eyes when it goes out the door, but then some rules lawyer buys the book and finds a huge flaw with it and then GW looks like they didnt do their job at all........

just my opinion....

Back when they wrote codexes by committee, loopholes were just as bad, the quality was better but there were still things like Siren Prince or Seer Congress.

Simple fix for many codex imbalances: Print a single flipping book for $50-75 with ALL the armies for that edition in it. During a current edition, sit down and figure out what people are jacking around with, what works and so forth and then fix the errata, cheese-crap and other stuff as you go for the next edition.

Release the Omni-Army-Dex the month following the big release of the new rules edition.

Will it fix every problem? Nope. Will rules lawyers still figure out a way to twist a spirit of the rules sort of thing? Dang skippy, they will! Will there still be vagueness. Definitely. But the overall product will be more coherent and will play better as a game.

Wonder if their rules would get better if they changed their name to Miniatures Workshop?

I'd rather not have GW listen to the community too much. Yes they need to involve the community more and use their feedback but please don't go all the way.

privateer4hire wrote:Simple fix for many codex imbalances: Print a single flipping book for $50-75 with ALL the armies for that edition in it. During a current edition, sit down and figure out what people are jacking around with, what works and so forth and then fix the errata, cheese-crap and other stuff as you go for the next edition.

Release the Omni-Army-Dex the month following the big release of the new rules edition.

Will it fix every problem? Nope. Will rules lawyers still figure out a way to twist a spirit of the rules sort of thing? Dang skippy, they will! Will there still be vagueness. Definitely. But the overall product will be more coherent and will play better as a game.

Wonder if their rules would get better if they changed their name to Miniatures Workshop?

I agree - back in WFB 3rd edition we had "warhammer armies" - 1 book with all the army lists in, which I loved (I still play 3rd ed WFB...).

GW may believe that they sell more models by having a "new" army every so often, but I reckon having a book with all the armies in would have people constantly starting new armies as they got tempted by the look of X or Y.

privateer4hire wrote:Simple fix for many codex imbalances: Print a single flipping book for $50-75 with ALL the armies for that edition in it. During a current edition, sit down and figure out what people are jacking around with, what works and so forth and then fix the errata, cheese-crap and other stuff as you go for the next edition.

Release the Omni-Army-Dex the month following the big release of the new rules edition.

Will it fix every problem? Nope. Will rules lawyers still figure out a way to twist a spirit of the rules sort of thing? Dang skippy, they will! Will there still be vagueness. Definitely. But the overall product will be more coherent and will play better as a game.

Wonder if their rules would get better if they changed their name to Miniatures Workshop?

I think thats a terrible idea. You would lose a ton of fluff because they would have to print off a book the size of websters dict to include it all. And im not talking about the small pocket book size either. Im talking the huge fecking thing that takes up a pedastal in your local library.

Also thats a terrible idea just based on business alone. They can easily make about 100 bucks if some one buys 3 codexs. Whilest if they just bought the one big book GW would be out what 25 bucks?

I do agree with what an above poster said though. Not every thing can be found while playtesting. Just google locate town and you will see the complete crap some people will be able to find. No matter how hard they try to make the game flawless, some one some where will eventually find something wrong.

Hi all.
Well if all you get from a building company is wonky mud huts that stink of dung, yet when the same workmen build at other companies you get massive shiney buildings that impress the pants off you.

What can we deduce from this?

That the methodology and resources provided by GW PLC hamper the capabilities of the games developers.

IF all the rules did not have to have SO MANY legacy issues, and shedules were not driven by product rlease dates , and the gaming community were allowed to imput into development ....

But the arrogance and ignorance of the GW corperate managment leaves a very limited view of how to 'sell toy soldiers to kiddies'.

IF they allowed a rule set to be written for current 40k game play , the rules could be comprehensive and intuitive and far fewer than the current abomination.

And with a ruleset more in synergy with desired game play , with more suitable game mechanics, then the confusion caused by over complicated rules (compard to the simple gameplay,) would just dissapear!

Also why not just kep all the ashtetic releases together (Minatures + backgroung book /minature pianting modeling guide,) and segrigate the rules , so they can be up dated FREE online every 3 months or so?

This way the process of function , rules and game play can be updated as required.

And the artistry of the sculpts and narative of the backgroung would sell just as much new product IMO.

Having to wait for 5 to 10 years for an update is rediculous.

So dont blame the GW studio staff to much, thier only doing thier best in dificult circumstances.IMO.
Blame the small minded ball of arrogance and ignorance called GW corperate managment!(I hold this view after reading the GW managment book we shall not mention agian.)

TTFN
Lanrak.

Hi lanrak. Just wanted to point out that small ball of ignorance has almost a monopoly on these so called little toy soldiers.

Alot of the other ones have shockingly being brought down by terrible management. Mechwarrior, heroclicx ect.

Yet this one still seems to be around selling the same space marines we all bought 5 years ago. And from what there stock rating suggest there doing pretty well for themselves even in this so called recision we seem to be having.

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. *gets down off soap box*

Hi Golga.
If you look at GW pre PLC days it was in a state of growth of appx 10 to 30 % per annum.
This slowed to 5 to 10 % by the end of the 1990s.

From 2001 to present the GW has remained static in real terms ,(ignoring the LOTR blip) while increasing prices at 30% over inflation.(This means less people are buying GW stuff or spending less on GW stuff than they were 8 years ago.)

Therfore this 'small ball of ignorance and arrogance' has lost lots of skilled artists and hobby experts, mis managed its product line and alienated its customer base.

I find it highly indicative of how cluless they are when they ridiculed the 'gamers managing the company before them ' for thier 'ameterish buisness decisions'.Namley haveing free give away competitions and placing GW product in other retail stores...as it 'devalued the products integrity.'

Now what is the latest idea of the corperate buisnessmen at GW towers, thats right a competition to win free product and placing starter sets in Argos!

It takes a very long time to run a multimilliom pound multi national company into the ground.But 'kirby and co' are doing thier best!

I just wanted to point out that the studio staff at GW do a great job in difficult circumstances.And to deride thier efforts without knowing the circumstances, I felt was unjustified.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Of course there profits are going to slow down when they have already soaked up most of the market. Its the whole reason they are trying to bring in new gamers. Its the same thing nintendo did with there wii. (only they really dont have much of anything I could compare with the wii and they attempted to bring in the older crowed as opposed to teenagers)

Also its not a bad idea to let gw give there product to other retailers. Not every one walks into a lgs or bb. Some people have never even heard of war hammer. Yet some of these people could walk by see the aobr box. And think, Hey this is a pretty neat game.

Also this free give away. I can only assume your talking about the one on there main website. Explain to me how this is a bad idea? I can give you a very good reason as to why its a good one. When you buy from there website they make all the profit. They do not get a cut from the retailors. Using this free give away will bring more people to look at there site and hey maybe osme of thos epeople will see some of the space marine vets thta you can only get through ordering through there site. Or maybe that techmarine without the helmet? Alot of the older models imo look better then the new ones and you can only get them from the site.

Also what about there mmo. I know a fair amount of people who started the hobby due to this game and the dow ones.

Also this mystery box. Ive heard endless debate as to what it could be. Chances are its going to be bought up so quickly that I wont be able to get one along with alot of other people that will miss out. What about the choas dwarves they are re-releasing? Alot of people will be lamenting the demise of there wallets.

I could go on and on with examples of the good, and yes the bad of gw corperate. But they are not as stupid as they seem.

Granted im not disagreeing with you that the studio staff is squelched by the management team. But in all truthfulness who honestly hasn't these days?

Also yay as this is my longest rant on dakka ^ ^

You can get minutes of GW corporate meetings that are official for stockholders if you are a stockholder.

People have posted them on other forums.

This is how this goes.

"We have blah blah blah coming out we are reducing productin and increassing sales there for your stock will increase"

" Oh yay"


Thats it its a horribly mismanaged company and I completely expect Hasbro to make a bid for it in the next 5 years.

Id love to see a link of these so called minutes. please do provide.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Depends entirely upon the playtesting I'd say.

GW playtests??

GW plays?

I was under the impression that the closest these monkeys ever get to playing a game were those elaborate multi-page adverts for new releases... what do they call them again... oh! Yes. Battle Reports.

The most GW game designers have studied literature or arts.
For writing, this is perfect. But for game development, this is fatal.

Hi Golga.
You may have misunderstood my post.

Competitions and placing GW product in non GW stores was originaly done by the 'gamer managment' pre PLC days.In the time of highest growth of GW.

The GW PLC corperate managment said these were 'poor ameterish ideas' that 'just devalued the GW product line' and stopped doing them.

Now the same corperate managment have taken the original GOOD ideas of the old gaming managment , ands passed them of as thier own ideas!

wuestenflux.
Although most of the GW studio staff are very artisticaly gifted.The game development team can develop MUCH better games, as reguard to game play issues, when not under the direction of 'corperate marketing.'
Blood bowl is a good example of lots of game play ,with fewer rules!


TTFN
Lanrak.