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Hey Guys,

I am looking for your comments on a 200pts Undivided Chaos Army. I want to have fun but also be competitive. Here it is:

1 Chaos Lord 145
Daemon Weapon
Jump Pack
Combi Melta


7 Raptors 230
2 Melta Gun
Asp Champ.
Lightening Claws
Icon of Khorne

8 Bikes 364
Icon of Nurgle
2 Flamers
Champion
Power fist

10 Marines 285
1 Flamer
1 Plasma
Icon of CG
Asp Champ
Power Fist
Plasma pistol
Rhino
Extra Armor


10 Marines 285
1 Flamer
1 Plasma
Icon of CG
Asp Champ
Power Fist
Plasma pistol
Rhino
Extra Armor

10 Noise Marines 310
8 Sonic Blaster
1 Blastmaster
Noise Champion
Doom Siren

Defiler 150
3 obliterators 225

Total 1994

Ideas?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm hoping that the silence means this list is good?

Rhinos. Also, if your running your lord solo, RUN HIM IN A SQUAD! I cannot stress that enough. When I started out playing CSM (with no rhinos or LR's) I got p***ed off at how much my terminator lord and chaos sorc got 1 shotted by lascannons/heavy destroyers/railguns every game. Trust me, run him in a squad and get some transports! I suggest taking your lord in a squad (no jetpack), changing the mark on the bikers to khorne or something (slanesh is also good), and what does your defiler have? I love my defiler in fun games with my Khorne setup, but depending on how hes run, its hard to justify em in a shooty army like this one.

I was actually going to run the Lord with the raptors. Each of the marine squads but the Noise marines have a transport. With the noise marine's range they really don't need one. I thought about MoK for the bikers but the the 6T of the nurgle bikers is too hard to resist.

This is my opinion:

-Chaos Lord seems interesting. I wouldnt expect him to do much. IMO a Daemon Prince is always better, except the Slaneesh Daemon Weapon against Nobs.

-Raptors I like, though I think a fist is better. Theyre going to get in early, so Id expect slow heavy units to go after them. They can also jump into vehicles, and if you dont blow the vehicle up, they either have to move or take a powerfist in their turn as well. If you run into a walker...youre in deep trouble.

-Bikes are overpriced. I think if you drop this unit you can make a much better list. Its a huge point sink.

-CSMs are great, however, I think youre wasting heavy points with a plasma pistol. 15 points is another marine, 30 total between the two. I also think you should keep the special guns together in the same squad (ie. 2 flamers together). Meltaguns are better than plasma as well, and are 5 points cheaper. Drop the extra armour, theres a 1/6 chance its going to save you. Its just not worth 15 points. If you do these, thats another 70 points saved - huge!

-Noise marines are okay, though I applaud you for taking them. They are fun to use. Unless you have a specific plan with them, just know by themselves they are not the best choice, just "decent" choices.

-Defiler is always nice. Though I personally would run 2 as they die very quickly. Im guessing youre also going with 2x extra CCWs?


If you drop the bikes and make those changes to the CSM, you have 440 points. With these points you can get:

-150 Defiler. 290

-175 Daemon Prince with Nurgle, Warptime and Wings. 115.

-115 - 3 combi melta terminators with one fist.


=2000

This is just my opinion. You may not have these models, but atleast its something to think about. Cheers.

Agree with most everything Night Lords said except two things.

1. Noise Marines are amazing, specifically the Blastmaster. Go ahead and drop the Doom Siren (you'll never be in range) heck drop the champion altogether and save yourself about 40 pts right there. Another body with sonic blaster will serve that squad much better.

2. Extra armor is not just useful 1/6 times. It is useful for 1/6 penetrating hits and 1/3 glancing hits (depending on ap 1 or not). However, none of your Rhino squads are dedicated to assault. So you could drop the extra armor and be fine (troops exit vehicle and shoot). Extra armor is only important for making sure that unit moves forward every single turn.

Other than that, pair the lord with your raptors, give the raptor champion a fist instead of lc's. Bikes are ok but not great. Personally if you take them I'd give them meltaguns instead of flamers. You're likely to find the side armor of a vehicle but not a mass of troops to template to death. With the points you've saved you could even break them into two squads.

Ok Guys,
Thanks for all the great ideas. You guys are fantastic.
I dropped the LC on the Raptor champ and gave him a fist. I dropped the plasma pistols on the asp. champs in the CSM squads and changed the plasma to melta. I changed the flamers on the bikes to melta and dropped one bike. I dropped the noise champ and added another sonic blaster. With the exta points I added another defiler. Here is the updated list:

1 Chaos Lord 145
Daemon Weapon
Jump Pack
Combi Melta


7 Raptors 220
2 Melta Gun
Asp Champ.
Power Fist
Icon of Khorne

7 Bikes 341
Icon of Nurgle
2 Melta guns
Champion
Power fist

10 Marines 240
1 Flamer
1 Melta
Icon of CG
Asp Champ
Power Fist
Rhino


10 Marines 240
1 Flamer
1 Melta
Icon of CG
Asp Champ
Power Fist
Rhino

10 Noise Marines 285
9 Sonic Blaster
1 Blastmaster


2 Defiler (CC Weapons) 300
3 obliterators 225




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops.. I forgot to switch the flamers and meltas around so there would be two flamers in one unit and two meltas in one unit.

Bigpapa1332 wrote:Ok Guys,
Thanks for all the great ideas. You guys are fantastic.
I dropped the LC on the Raptor champ and gave him a fist. I dropped the plasma pistols on the asp. champs in the CSM squads and changed the plasma to melta. I changed the flamers on the bikes to melta and dropped one bike. I dropped the noise champ and added another sonic blaster. With the exta points I added another defiler. Here is the updated list:

1 Chaos Lord 145
Daemon Weapon
Jump Pack
Combi Melta


7 Raptors 220
2 Melta Gun
Asp Champ.
Power Fist
Icon of Khorne

7 Bikes 341
Icon of Nurgle
2 Melta guns
Champion
Power fist

10 Marines 240
1 Flamer
1 Melta
Icon of CG
Asp Champ
Power Fist
Rhino


10 Marines 240
1 Flamer
1 Melta
Icon of CG
Asp Champ
Power Fist
Rhino

10 Noise Marines 285
9 Sonic Blaster
1 Blastmaster


2 Defiler (CC Weapons) 300
3 obliterators 225




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoops.. I forgot to switch the flamers and meltas around so there would be two flamers in one unit and two meltas in one unit.

Wow, you got another defiler out of that! Impressive. I like this much better than list 1 and it's honestly not all that different. Good job.

Very nice... I'm thinking about starting a chaos army (despite the codex) and this gives me some ideas

DJ66 wrote:
2. Extra armor is not just useful 1/6 times. It is useful for 1/6 penetrating hits and 1/3 glancing hits (depending on ap 1 or not). However, none of your Rhino squads are dedicated to assault. So you could drop the extra armor and be fine (troops exit vehicle and shoot). Extra armor is only important for making sure that unit moves forward every single turn.

Hmm, I dont see how its 1/3. It still only works on a final result of 2. With AP 1, you simply -1 off your roll. The only way to get a 2 result would be to roll a 3.

For those extra points I can buy a lot of stuff. Its hard to justify it in my opinion.

----

Anyways, congrats on the list. I see you kept the bikes - who knows, they may work out for you. It all depends on how your list works together. Too many times do people automatically dismiss a unit because by itself its not worth it. I dont they will make their points worth (haha), but you can try and see

Night Lords wrote:

DJ66 wrote:
2. Extra armor is not just useful 1/6 times. It is useful for 1/6 penetrating hits and 1/3 glancing hits (depending on ap 1 or not). However, none of your Rhino squads are dedicated to assault. So you could drop the extra armor and be fine (troops exit vehicle and shoot). Extra armor is only important for making sure that unit moves forward every single turn.

Hmm, I dont see how its 1/3. It still only works on a final result of 2. With AP 1, you simply -1 off your roll. The only way to get a 2 result would be to roll a 3.

For those extra points I can buy a lot of stuff. Its hard to justify it in my opinion.

----

Anyways, congrats on the list. I see you kept the bikes - who knows, they may work out for you. It all depends on how your list works together. Too many times do people automatically dismiss a unit because by itself its not worth it. I dont they will make their points worth (haha), but you can try and see

First of all, glancing hits are -2. So a Glancing result of 4 is knocked down to a 2. If the weapon was ap 1, and glances, it is a net of -1 (-2 for glancing +1 for ap 1) so a result of a 3 would be downgraded to a 2. Yes that's situational, but melta weapons and railguns frequently shoot at transports. But again, extra armor only really matters for units that need to move forward, not shoot. If the squad inside is dedicated for assaults, extra armor is worth its points. Otherwise, just exit the vehicle and shoot the way you planned before it was stunned.

edit: with those 'extra points' all you could buy is one more CSM or a plasmagun. Not really a whole lot of stuff

DJ66 wrote:

First of all, glancing hits are -2. So a Glancing result of 4 is knocked down to a 2. If the weapon was ap 1, and glances, it is a net of -1 (-2 for glancing +1 for ap 1) so a result of a 3 would be downgraded to a 2. Yes that's situational, but melta weapons and railguns frequently shoot at transports. But again, extra armor only really matters for units that need to move forward, not shoot. If the squad inside is dedicated for assaults, extra armor is worth its points. Otherwise, just exit the vehicle and shoot the way you planned before it was stunned.

edit: with those 'extra points' all you could buy is one more CSM or a plasmagun. Not really a whole lot of stuff

I know glancing hits are -2...but you said with AP1.

With AP2+ you need a 4 to get a result of 2. There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 4.

With Ap1, you need a 3 to get a result of 2. There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 3.

You dont add them together because they are seperate situations. It doesnt matter if its AP1 or not, because when your opponent rolls on the chart, there will always be a 1/6 chance he'll land on a 2.

And 15 points is a lot of points! I can believe you dismissed it at all. With 4 rhinos thats 60 points to buy extra armour. Thats almost another squad of marines.

Well its looking good but it just needs to be tweaked.

Bikers drop them and get anither squad of raptors, give the CSM champs powerfists, but apart from that looks pretty good.

Night Lords wrote:

DJ66 wrote:

First of all, glancing hits are -2. So a Glancing result of 4 is knocked down to a 2. If the weapon was ap 1, and glances, it is a net of -1 (-2 for glancing +1 for ap 1) so a result of a 3 would be downgraded to a 2. Yes that's situational, but melta weapons and railguns frequently shoot at transports. But again, extra armor only really matters for units that need to move forward, not shoot. If the squad inside is dedicated for assaults, extra armor is worth its points. Otherwise, just exit the vehicle and shoot the way you planned before it was stunned.

edit: with those 'extra points' all you could buy is one more CSM or a plasmagun. Not really a whole lot of stuff

I know glancing hits are -2...but you said with AP1.

With AP2+ you need a 4 to get a result of 2. There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 4.

With Ap1, you need a 3 to get a result of 2. There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 3.

You dont add them together because they are seperate situations. It doesnt matter if its AP1 or not, because when your opponent rolls on the chart, there will always be a 1/6 chance he'll land on a 2.

And 15 points is a lot of points! I can believe you dismissed it at all. With 4 rhinos thats 60 points to buy extra armour. Thats almost another squad of marines.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suite eh? I admitted it is situational; but you run into that situation quite often. You are incorrect in stating that you only need extra armor once out of six occurences. Also, 15 pts is only 15 pts not 60. Yes four of them is almost another squad because extra armor costs as much as one CSM. Go figure. Would you rather buy one more model or make sure the other 9-10 are going to be able to execute their task? You are so concerned with odds, why not take something that stacks them in your favor by nullifying your opponent's performance? Finally, I did actually agree with your assement that the OP drop the extra armor, as it is only necessary on transports containing assault troops. They're the only ones that need guranteed mobility.

well, i played chaos several times, and the thing i want to point out is... your raptor unit is too weak! 7-men squad of flying men will get shot to smithereens before it gets into the action

the only possibility is to deep-strike them, but i have really bad experience with that stuff... scatter dice is a b*tch!

if you manage to save points somewhere, try adding at least 2 more men... i know they benefit from 3+ armour save, but they are usually the most targeted unit, along with speeders and bikes(bikers are a bit harder to kill)

you wanna have fun? try putting 10 zerkers in a rhino transport and watch from above, they are just great! compared to noisy marines, the second ones are very stationary, and although they represent amazing fire support, you won't beat any surprise out of them

believe me, there is nothing more funny than watching your opponent die from a heart attack after your 10-men squad of zerkers ruinated his land raider, two tac squads and the last two of them claimed the objective!

DJ66 wrote:

Night Lords wrote:

DJ66 wrote:

First of all, glancing hits are -2. So a Glancing result of 4 is knocked down to a 2. If the weapon was ap 1, and glances, it is a net of -1 (-2 for glancing +1 for ap 1) so a result of a 3 would be downgraded to a 2. Yes that's situational, but melta weapons and railguns frequently shoot at transports. But again, extra armor only really matters for units that need to move forward, not shoot. If the squad inside is dedicated for assaults, extra armor is worth its points. Otherwise, just exit the vehicle and shoot the way you planned before it was stunned.

edit: with those 'extra points' all you could buy is one more CSM or a plasmagun. Not really a whole lot of stuff

I know glancing hits are -2...but you said with AP1.

With AP2+ you need a 4 to get a result of 2. There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 4.

With Ap1, you need a 3 to get a result of 2. There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 3.

You dont add them together because they are seperate situations. It doesnt matter if its AP1 or not, because when your opponent rolls on the chart, there will always be a 1/6 chance he'll land on a 2.

And 15 points is a lot of points! I can believe you dismissed it at all. With 4 rhinos thats 60 points to buy extra armour. Thats almost another squad of marines.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suite eh? I admitted it is situational; but you run into that situation quite often. You are incorrect in stating that you only need extra armor once out of six occurences. Also, 15 pts is only 15 pts not 60. Yes four of them is almost another squad because extra armor costs as much as one CSM. Go figure. Would you rather buy one more model or make sure the other 9-10 are going to be able to execute their task? You are so concerned with odds, why not take something that stacks them in your favor by nullifying your opponent's performance? Finally, I did actually agree with your assement that the OP drop the extra armor, as it is only necessary on transports containing assault troops. They're the only ones that need guranteed mobility.

Excuse me? Who the feth are you to say that gak to me? Did you ever think Im not understanding what youre saying because you havnt actually said why? There will always be a 1/6 chance, as I clearly spelled out. Maybe Im not understanding your point because you simply say "You will need it more" without explaining WHY.

I also saw no reason for the insult at all when I was trying to understand wtf youre talking about, but clearly you want to be a douche for no reason...? You said 1/3 chance depending on AP yet youre clearly wrong, because AP does not affect the odds at all.

Drop the bikes, read my article and the discussion thread for it. You'll learn a lot from both.

I wouldn't drop the bikes. They add mobility and are a huge threat to tanks. At T6, and able to grab a 3+ cover save on demand, they are impervious to small arms and resistant anything bigger.

Something I should mention about the Defilers is that they are going to attract a lot of fire. With all CCWs, one immobilized and weapon destroyed makes it dead in the water. Anything bigger than those two results will kill it. That is rather risky in my opinion, so I run my Defiler with the standard load-out, sometimes exchanging the Heavy Flamer for the Havoc Launcher. If it has guns, it is harder to shut down, meaning you get more out of your investment. In a list like this, with as many close combat elements as you have, it is something to think about.