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 dadamowsky wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't get how your response relates to mine. If you can pile in or consolidate into a target you didn't declare with 10+ models, why wouldn't you just wrap it instead? If you divided attacks badly, again, why wouldn't you just wrap it during consolidation?

It's not impossible to think of situations where this is theoretically not terrible. But they're extremely few and far between. Basically: "a unit with fly that wants to fall back from you that you can't move-block that you have 12+ models in range of, that dealing a couple of MWs to would actually be useful."

Because sometimes charge range rolled, pile-in and consolidate is not enough to wrap, just enough to tag? I know my charge rolls are lousy but am I really the only one who rolls way below the needed inches to get to really juicy targets? Besides I don't really understand why the upset on a more, let's call it, basic level - are we angry because there's a niche stratagem, we pay nothing to unlock because it's simply there, to be potentially useful to stop or finish something we didn't manage with normal means?

I still don't get your response. For this stratagem to be worth using, you need to have 10+ models in range to strike. If you were able to accomplish that, why wouldn't you have been able to accomplish a wrap? If it's "just enough to tag," you wouldn't be able to get into range with 10+ models. It's theoretically possible to imagine a situation where you can hit with 10+ models but not wrap - a really carefully packed and deployed castle can make it impossible to wrap no matter how much movement you have - but it's super rare. And if that is the situation, it seems really hard to imagine how an extra 2MW would make any difference. You shouldn't be charging tightly packed castles like that period unless you have overwhelming fighting power - in which case an anemic MW on a 6 strat is almost certainly a bad use of your CP.

People aren't angry I don't think, more amused, and somewhat worried that GW thought to show this strat off as a teaser. I mean if this was just tossed into some codex nobody would care. But it's odd it was selected as a highlight of 9th edition. It's like making the soggy carrots your restaurant puts on the side of the children's meal the highlight of your advertising campaign.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It seems like there wasn't any penalty to souping after all, there was a penalty to taking more than a single detachment (or taking a single detachment of anything other than patrol, bat, or brigade), whether it's soup or not.

Which seems kinda dumb, frankly. As silly as it was that more detachments gave you more CP...more detachments costing you CP is also silly.

And that stratagem is laughably, absurdly, incredibly bad. The fact that they thought it was something good to advertise their new addition is really troubling, honestly.

Remains to be seen. Remember that Specialist Detachments grant Warlord Traits to non-Warlord characters...it very well might be something where Specialist Detachments or Detachments containing a character with a Warlord Trait will refund the CP.

Well, but that'd unbalance things even more based on whether you have one of the (usually new) codexes or PA books that let you give multiple models warlord traits, or whether you're stuck with a codex/PA release (usually older) that only gives you one warlord trait per army. When the whole point of what they're doing is supposedly to create a level playing field.

This is GW, obviously what they say their intent is and what they actually do are often completely unrelated. But it'd sure be odd.

Removed by op, duplicate thread

Looking at the new detatchment rules at 2000pts adnexh is messed up at 2001pts we atleast have the CP to be viable.

As to the warlord thing. It won't work that way. Currently even for oldschool type missions we seperate your warlord from models with warlord traits

U02dah4 wrote:
Looking at the new detatchment rules at 2000pts adnexh is messed up at 2001pts we atleast have the CP to be viable.

As to the warlord thing. It won't work that way. Currently even for oldschool type missions we seperate your warlord from models with warlord traits

I don't get it. Most AdMech players are going to be running a free Battalion and a Spearhead.

Why? Because most admech players are mars artillery lists?

Aggripinaa lists need 9-12 CP just for the agripinas strat dead

Mixed admech lists need 2 CP for a WoM drop in 2 CP for dragoons maybe 4 CP for Ryzaphrones 2CP for corpuscarii and we are already above the 9 dead

Lucius beta 9 times lucius strat alone lol

Stygies + knight lets assume 5 CP for the knight that leaves 2 for the dragoons and oh look 2 left dead

Sure mono mars or a similar stygies build can still run but any of the other common builds are barely/not functional at so low CP

But add 6cp variety again

U02dah4 wrote:
Why? Because most admech players are mars artillery lists?

Aggripinaa lists need 9-12 CP just for the agripinas strat dead

Mixed admech lists need 2 CP for a WoM drop in 2 CP for dragoons maybe 4 CP for Ryzaphrones 2CP for corpuscarii and we are already above the 9 dead

Lucius beta 9 times lucius strat alone lol

Stygies + knight lets assume 5 CP for the knight that leaves 2 for the dragoons and oh look 2 left dead

Sure mono mars or a similar stygies build can still run but any of the other common builds are barely/not functional at so low CP

But add 6cp variety again

Then your going to have to change your lists, like we all will. As ive been saying 9th is a different kettle of fish compared to 8th, trying to mash your current army into this new edition is kind of silly and pointless... I will be running a Battalion and a Spearhead so Ill probs have 10CP to start with, my army as a whole will be changing. I was always a Stygies boy but I might be going to a more mobile Mars list. Not everyone builds castles and I always ran Strafing Firing Run with my Kastellans, as everyone knows, I wasnt an auto root and shoot twice player, I preferred the mobility.

Now im saving a CP from that specialist detachment and a CP everytime i would have normally have wanted to move my Kastellans with no heavy penalty. I never saw anyone but you run Agripinaa, Ive seen Lucius a few time and Stygies alot. At the end of the day your going to have to make cuts to your list, like I will, like the next Admech player will. We will adapt to the new edition.

I suspect our armies will shoot up 15-20% So our 2k lists will most likely be 1600-1750pts. It too soon to have the doom and gloom attitude, in a few weeks we can all digest and anaylse what we need to do to stay viable in 9th (which we will 80% sure on that).

 dadamowsky wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't get how your response relates to mine. If you can pile in or consolidate into a target you didn't declare with 10+ models, why wouldn't you just wrap it instead? If you divided attacks badly, again, why wouldn't you just wrap it during consolidation?

It's not impossible to think of situations where this is theoretically not terrible. But they're extremely few and far between. Basically: "a unit with fly that wants to fall back from you that you can't move-block that you have 12+ models in range of, that dealing a couple of MWs to would actually be useful."

Because sometimes charge range rolled, pile-in and consolidate is not enough to wrap, just enough to tag? I know my charge rolls are lousy but am I really the only one who rolls way below the needed inches to get to really juicy targets? Besides I don't really understand why the upset on a more, let's call it, basic level - are we angry because there's a niche stratagem, we pay nothing to unlock because it's simply there, to be potentially useful to stop or finish something we didn't manage with normal means?

I think you are missing that only models within "engagement range" of the falling back unit get to roll for mortal wounds. We are not completely sure at the moment if engagement range is just a defined term for "able to fight in the fight phase" or "within 1 inch of the unit".

So simply "tagging" a Character or shooty unit with 1 or 2 models in your unit is not going to amount to any MWs(most likely) and just waste CP.

If engagement range is defined as "able to fight", that means 1" of the unit and 1" of a model within 1"; then there might be more of an incentive to not wrap a unit in combat, leaving a "fall-back corridor" to bait the strat.

Does seem a little silly to strategize for the stratagem though. I don't think it will come up too often for most players, and won't have much effect when it does. Yes, it does have the potential to be powerfull; but if my kat-destroyers are swarmed by 20 models with an exit corridor, I am going to say "eff-it" they are fighting this fight phase. At least I can activate them before the enemy wipes them out anyway(it is after all my turn if I can contemplate falling back), and if I even get 1w through then that is a win for the destroyers.

 deffrekka wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Why? Because most admech players are mars artillery lists?

Aggripinaa lists need 9-12 CP just for the agripinas strat dead

Mixed admech lists need 2 CP for a WoM drop in 2 CP for dragoons maybe 4 CP for Ryzaphrones 2CP for corpuscarii and we are already above the 9 dead

Lucius beta 9 times lucius strat alone lol

Stygies + knight lets assume 5 CP for the knight that leaves 2 for the dragoons and oh look 2 left dead

Sure mono mars or a similar stygies build can still run but any of the other common builds are barely/not functional at so low CP

But add 6cp variety again

Then your going to have to change your lists, like we all will. As ive been saying 9th is a different kettle of fish compared to 8th, trying to mash your current army into this new edition is kind of silly and pointless... I will be running a Battalion and a Spearhead so Ill probs have 10CP to start with, my army as a whole will be changing. I was always a Stygies boy but I might be going to a more mobile Mars list. Not everyone builds castles and I always ran Strafing Firing Run with my Kastellans, as everyone knows, I wasnt an auto root and shoot twice player, I preferred the mobility.

Now im saving a CP from that specialist detachment and a CP everytime i would have normally have wanted to move my Kastellans with no heavy penalty. I never saw anyone but you run Agripinaa, Ive seen Lucius a few time and Stygies alot. At the end of the day your going to have to make cuts to your list, like I will, like the next Admech player will. We will adapt to the new edition.

I suspect our armies will shoot up 15-20% So our 2k lists will most likely be 1600-1750pts. It too soon to have the doom and gloom attitude, in a few weeks we can all digest and anaylse what we need to do to stay viable in 9th (which we will 80% sure on that).

Its not about modifying my list pursay i can play an artillery list fine. However by eliminateing variety from list construction you are making for a more dull experience all round if every admech list devolves into the same spearhead and battalion as you put it and other factions follow suit as i think its gonna be less enjoyable. Especially as admech just got the tools to take more advantage of the others but not with tight CP

U02dah4 wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Why? Because most admech players are mars artillery lists?

Aggripinaa lists need 9-12 CP just for the agripinas strat dead

Mixed admech lists need 2 CP for a WoM drop in 2 CP for dragoons maybe 4 CP for Ryzaphrones 2CP for corpuscarii and we are already above the 9 dead

Lucius beta 9 times lucius strat alone lol

Stygies + knight lets assume 5 CP for the knight that leaves 2 for the dragoons and oh look 2 left dead

Sure mono mars or a similar stygies build can still run but any of the other common builds are barely/not functional at so low CP

But add 6cp variety again

Then your going to have to change your lists, like we all will. As ive been saying 9th is a different kettle of fish compared to 8th, trying to mash your current army into this new edition is kind of silly and pointless... I will be running a Battalion and a Spearhead so Ill probs have 10CP to start with, my army as a whole will be changing. I was always a Stygies boy but I might be going to a more mobile Mars list. Not everyone builds castles and I always ran Strafing Firing Run with my Kastellans, as everyone knows, I wasnt an auto root and shoot twice player, I preferred the mobility.

Now im saving a CP from that specialist detachment and a CP everytime i would have normally have wanted to move my Kastellans with no heavy penalty. I never saw anyone but you run Agripinaa, Ive seen Lucius a few time and Stygies alot. At the end of the day your going to have to make cuts to your list, like I will, like the next Admech player will. We will adapt to the new edition.

I suspect our armies will shoot up 15-20% So our 2k lists will most likely be 1600-1750pts. It too soon to have the doom and gloom attitude, in a few weeks we can all digest and anaylse what we need to do to stay viable in 9th (which we will 80% sure on that).

Its not about modifying my list pursay i can play an artillery list fine. However by eliminateing variety from list construction you are making for a more dull experience all round if every admech list devolves into the same spearhead and battalion as you put it and other factions follow suit as i think its gonna be less enjoyable. Especially as admech just got the tools to take more advantage of the others but not with tight CP

There will be a fair few armies outside of Admech which will experience this problem, some armies live and die by stratagems like Orkz, others dont really care too much about them. I think its good for the game that stratagems become more rare and meaningful, really half the stratagems should just be core rules on datasheets. Why you guy suddenly forgets to use a dataspike mid battle but then next turn when you gain a CP he remembers is so dumb.

Maybe we are in the running for a new Codex with Necrons and Marines, seeing how we are one the older armies left and the age still shows irregardless of EW and Vigilus. Its best to wait until we have all the information before we start descending into chaos, even though I myself have done it on my groups whatsapp group about Cut Them Down being pure

@U02dah4
It has always been true that some strategies are more CP intensive than others. We used to manage with even less CP than the amounts you mention.

So yeah, going to have to adapt, just like everyone else, who are in the same boat as we are.

Got my Engine War today ! I have yet to read it but I'll let you know if the leaks didn't show some intel.

 Aaranis wrote:
Got my Engine War today ! I have yet to read it but I'll let you know if the leaks didn't show some intel.

Did you just order the book, or did you also order any of the new kits? I'm curious if the Pteraxii kit includes spare guns to build all 5 without the Alpha loadout, but haven't seen any sprue pictures anywhere.

Madjob wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Got my Engine War today ! I have yet to read it but I'll let you know if the leaks didn't show some intel.

Did you just order the book, or did you also order any of the new kits? I'm curious if the Pteraxii kit includes spare guns to build all 5 without the Alpha loadout, but haven't seen any sprue pictures anywhere.

I got the book and bought a box of Serberys, but I didn't open it yet.

First thing I've noticed: the Manipulus' Bolster Weapons ability gives +2" to the range of weapons under 24", and not 3". For 24" weapons it remains unchanged at +6".

Weird nerf but okay.

 Aaranis wrote:

Madjob wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Got my Engine War today ! I have yet to read it but I'll let you know if the leaks didn't show some intel.

Did you just order the book, or did you also order any of the new kits? I'm curious if the Pteraxii kit includes spare guns to build all 5 without the Alpha loadout, but haven't seen any sprue pictures anywhere.

I got the book and bought a box of Serberys, but I didn't open it yet.

First thing I've noticed: the Manipulus' Bolster Weapons ability gives +2" to the range of weapons under 24", and not 3". For 24" weapons it remains unchanged at +6".

Weird nerf but okay.

Isnt that the same as the new Imperial Knight Household Tradition Blessed Arms?

 The Forgemaster wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

Madjob wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Got my Engine War today ! I have yet to read it but I'll let you know if the leaks didn't show some intel.

Did you just order the book, or did you also order any of the new kits? I'm curious if the Pteraxii kit includes spare guns to build all 5 without the Alpha loadout, but haven't seen any sprue pictures anywhere.

I got the book and bought a box of Serberys, but I didn't open it yet.

First thing I've noticed: the Manipulus' Bolster Weapons ability gives +2" to the range of weapons under 24", and not 3". For 24" weapons it remains unchanged at +6".

Weird nerf but okay.

Isnt that the same as the new Imperial Knight Household Tradition Blessed Arms?

Yes it is !

Damn I didn't realise how CHEAP in points both Serberys were. 44 pts for the Raiders, that's 4,88 pts/wound. 61 pts for the Sulphurhounds, that's 6,77 pts/wound. It's insane. It'll probably change a lot for 9th but damn. Why play Vanguards or Rangers, if you've got lots of money you can just swarm the table in cheap wounds that move 12", can either target characters or drown targets at short-range with ignore cover weaponry.

its a running problem GW has with admech, hyper expensive models that are worth jack in points.
60USD box for 44 or 61pts of stuff. Classic gw, classic.....

Yeah, I REALLY wish points will go up for all armies' datasheets so that I don't have to run a thousand models in a 2000 pts list. I almost bought the new Start Collecting but I want to wait until I've read the new transport rules and proper modifications to melee. I love playing an agressive army, tuned around close-range shooting and assault, and Engine War gives me a few ideas. Won't do anything definitive though. But I've come to realise this army is too expensive for me to justify chasing the meta with it, and I'd rather focus on buying and paintings models I love like the Serberys Sulphurhounds. I won't buy the Archeopter because I really dislike flyers in the game.

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah, I REALLY wish points will go up for all armies' datasheets so that I don't have to run a thousand models in a 2000 pts list.

Looks like you are in luck - 9th Edition is just around the corner with a points hike on day 1.

 The Forgemaster wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah, I REALLY wish points will go up for all armies' datasheets so that I don't have to run a thousand models in a 2000 pts list.

Looks like you are in luck - 9th Edition is just around the corner with a points hike on day 1.

Yeah so I've read ! I'm eager to see how they'll manage though, there's bound to be some controversial changes when they're modifying ALL datasheets at once. For all we know the new meta will be horde Custodes or something like that. Anything can happen.

Uuugh we need more leaks !

Well, as of now, despite definately not being RAI, Heavy Phosphor Blasters are 0 pts until an FAQ hits.
I definately did expect it today, but... nothing.
So for the next approx. 2 weeks, AdMech reigns absolutely supreme. If you don't like your friends, that is.

Anybody who seriously tries to take 0 point HPBs except on the flyer...lol, let's just say I don't think they're going to be getting a lot of people wanting to play with them again.

That guy territory times 1000x.

 Thairne wrote:
Well, as of now, despite definately not being RAI, Heavy Phosphor Blasters are 0 pts until an FAQ hits.
I definately did expect it today, but... nothing.
So for the next approx. 2 weeks, AdMech reigns absolutely supreme. If you don't like your friends, that is.

Why would you expect a day one errata/FAQ? They usually didn't land until the following week, and that was when everything wasn't turned on its head from shutdowns. You do know that Saga of the Beast is still waiting on one for similarly awkward proofreading, typos, and rules conflicts? Why would this one land before that?

I'm really hoping the rewritten FW index gives hoplites and peltasts the Forgeworld faction keyword as Hoplites would be amazing with excluding 5s and 6s. Doesnt sound like to much to ask for lol

Though Engine War actively discourages use of FW Knights

Because this one basically unbalances one unit to the point of absolute and total domination.
I am not aware of another fethup that is this undisputable RAW and at the same time so game breaking. Kastelans for 65pts is... insane. You can plonk down 18 of these things for 324 S7 AP -1 D1 shots that ignore cover for 1170 points now. You can basically shoot everything off the table they have LOS to, potentially tabling an entire army T1.

And yet it is not as obtuse as assault weapons not functioning RAW because it is a simply, clearly printed number.

So I expected them to reach out since it was obviously not caught before it went to the printers to prevent such fallout. But since no tournaments or other things take place... well... it's fine I guess. Somehow.

yes it would be nice from a common sense perspective although having used them at a few events they are pretty strong they would become a must include

I wouldn't be surprised if they leave it and address the issue when they release the 9th edition point adjustments for the robots themselves.

I don't expect any erratas until 9th too, they probably figured that way less people are able to play because of lockdown. And as no tournament will be organised until the release next month, they'll surely let it be for the meantime.

I can't play at my GW store for now, and even then I wouldn't use the 0 pts HPB, it's so cheesy it makes me lactose intolerant.

I haven't seen it discussed here, but the new forgeworld-specific canticle allows you to replace one canticle on the existing table. so i'm sure litany of the electromancer is going to go the way of the dodo.