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Waaaaghmaster wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they leave it and address the issue when they release the 9th edition point adjustments for the robots themselves.

I would be hugely surprised if the 9th edition points values aren't already fixed, and possibly even in the process of already being printed up.

That said, unless they made the same mistake there, the issue is presumably already fixed for 9th.

Waaaaghmaster wrote:
I haven't seen it discussed here, but the new forgeworld-specific canticle allows you to replace one canticle on the existing table. so i'm sure litany of the electromancer is going to go the way of the dodo.

incantation of the iron soul will go in some builds nut it is a close call between the two

U02dah4 wrote:

Waaaaghmaster wrote:
I haven't seen it discussed here, but the new forgeworld-specific canticle allows you to replace one canticle on the existing table. so i'm sure litany of the electromancer is going to go the way of the dodo.

incantation of the iron soul will go in some builds nut it is a close call between the two

Remember morale is supposed to matter more in 9th...

Like you can build the way you want and more CP for everyone

but only if you mono brigade

take what gw say with a pinch of salt till you get the specifics

I'm actually finding the new list building restrictions quite annoying. It's refreshing; But annoying lol.

I dont want all those extra troops and elite choices in a brigade. All our utility is now in FA, our damage dealers are at least spread across HS, Troops and Elites. But it's really only one or two choices from each of those.

My group generally only goes to 1500pts, that might change, but that's what we use currently just so we can get more games in per day. I only need 1 or 2 elites and I certainly dont need 6 troops choices so there's actually a fair amount of tax for me.

But a battalion only allows 3 FA and Ballistarii are too good not to use after EW, I was already using a blob of 4-6 anyway, now I want to add a squad of pteraxii and 2 squads of raiders.

It's only 1cp but I wouldn't be a follower of the omnissiah if the efficiency of adding a Vanguage just for one or two extra FA choices didn't bother me lol

so..looking over the new stuff in engine war, I can see a use for both skystalkers and sterylizors..but I'm struggling to find a use for sulpherhounds or raiders.

for raiders, I can see using their "skirmishing line" ability to push out from your deployment zone, and then use their strategem to deny an early game charge..but not seeing much beyond that.

Am I overlooking something?

Yes. Their pts cost.
You pay 4.7 pts per wound for a sniping, 12" moving, 4+ save thing that basically cannot ne caught in melee if you don't want it to that can occasionally pling a wound of a character and zoom about taking objectives. And with 3W, you need to either spend a lot of small arms fire on them or some BIG guns. A single raider takes an autocannon wound and keeps trucking, so you need, depending on enemy BS, quite a few shots to kill them that wont go into what you dont want to die.

Compare that to a humble Guardsman that costs 4 pts...
They are an amazing screen and a good, cheap mobile unit.

Sulphurhounds are basically the same, but whereas raiders are defensively minded, sulphurhounds are the aggressive variant of the same thing. Instead of retreating and skirmishing around the outer lines, being a screen, the hounds are there to clear the screen.

Ive already got 18 raiders so that shows what i think.

Now i play board control not castle admech.

So as above pts/Wd is pretty big

On top of that on mass we have character sniping which can be awesome vs some armies and we dont really have another cheap option (arqurbusses being unreliable).

Finnally we have the pre game move which is huge as makes it probably you can charge the enemy on T1

A squad of 9 puts out a decent number of attacks perfect for screen killing and delay.

This can be buffed quite nicely with the new ryza canticle, the omniscient mask and biochemical aggression wl trait

I also really like the strat. As if i 3/4 kill but wrap there screenso cant be shot and then get counter charged i can fallback to safety

Beyond their ability to screen and deny assaults (which is powerful in itself), I don't see it. they have an 18" assault 2 weapon (yes with a chance to cause mortal wounds), but for that to be truly effective you need more than 3 models in the squad. At $60/box that is $180 for a max-sized unit, which is what I think you would need.

Waaaaghmaster wrote:
Beyond their ability to screen and deny assaults (which is powerful in itself), I don't see it. they have an 18" assault 2 weapon (yes with a chance to cause mortal wounds), but for that to be truly effective you need more than 3 models in the squad. At $60/box that is $180 for a max-sized unit, which is what I think you would need.

Find an alternative. Don't give GW money for a model that's too expensive. It's as simple as that.

As was pointed out earlier, if I ever pick up Raiders (after I work my way through 3 Start Collecting boxes and get a Knight and some Armigers), I'm going to pick up two boxes of Cold One Knights and a box of Skitarii at a total $100 for 10 Raiders. The conversion looks super simple: cut the cape off the Skitarii, use the Knight's hips and thigh, and replace the knee down with Skitarii. If I really wanted, I could green-stuff on some plates, but the raptors look so out-there in 40k I don't think it'd be necessary.

Waaaaghmaster wrote:
Beyond their ability to screen and deny assaults (which is powerful in itself), I don't see it. they have an 18" assault 2 weapon (yes with a chance to cause mortal wounds), but for that to be truly effective you need more than 3 models in the squad. At $60/box that is $180 for a max-sized unit, which is what I think you would need.

£PM is irrelevent in calculating whether a model is good.

The unit is good it is also a complete rip off in terms of real money

(I think two maxed size units makes more sense in game terms( so double your cost)

Things that are cheap in points but expensive in $$$ are always a hot topic for gripes at GW, and its totally justified.
Orks have been complaining about Mek Gunz since they showed up in 7th, and it wasnt even "as bad" back then. Almost a $2USD per point ratio on that thing for the Smasha Gun, which is the only one worth using at that.

Admech are going down that route almost on an entire codex scale. The only unit that doesnt feel super expensive for what they are for me are the basic ranger/vanguard, and even theyre more expensive than other armies' basic troop comparatively. Priced like an elitist army, function like a semi-horde.

Yeah only Kastelan Robots feel decently priced for me, at least in AdMech terms. Kataphron Breachers are also a disaster, it used to hurt physically when I read those lists with 15 Breachers not long ago.

But back on topic of tactics: Raiders/Sulphurhounds are criminally undercosted, if I had to optimise I'd play the tax amount of troops, and spam this cavalry because even if they die, they cost so little I wouldn't care. it's 4-5 pts/wound for a highly mobile profile. Yes the Raiders don't have devastating firepower but for their cost it's way better than Galvanic Rifles.

Going more on a thematic and fun route (for me) I'd like to toy with the radioactive dogmas, to send lots of Sulphurhounds debuff units at 3", while Vanguards in Duneriders follow to shoot at short range with the new Warlord trait that give -1AP in half ranged shooting riding along. Then I'd have my Fistelans with flamers following, Dragoons and the usual. Wouldn't be the most optimised, but would be very fun I think.

Strig wrote:

Spoiler:

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Suzeto

I'm a bit torn. It's going to depend on the size of the transports but I think the list can last without CC which is why I'm testing it out. Especially because against most of those hordes they'd have trouble clearing the 40 basic infantry to get to the meaty parts.

Also I kinda want to try a 6-8 dunerider list. But I don't want to pay $600 retail just for the transports to try it out.....

Right. Other lists do this sort of thing. But I worry, since I don't think our Skitarii are comparable to Guard.

GW is clever. They made a $75 model our cheap transport and our cheap tank.

Then again, here's me with the 10 Ironstriders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Hey strangers! Been a long time, but I see some familiar names.

I lost the hobby bug after a cross-country move but with AdMech finally getting a transport kit all their own, I'm thinking of jumping back in.

What is the meta like nowadays? How are AdMech doing? I'm way out of the loop!

I am excited at the prospect of putting my Fulgurite Priests on the table. They never did make it when they had to slog across the table on foot, but now the idea of them getting somewhere and actually getting into combat is just awesome!

Welcome home.

ITC changed the rules for the faction. You now have to run pure AdMech with the option of one Knight in a Super-heavy Auxiliary detachment.

If you want my opinion on what's good:

Mars Gunline

Mars Breachers to screen, Mars Kastelans using Cybernetica Cohort to eliminate heavy shooting penalties or bring Mars Grav Destroyers to use Elimination Volley. Complement with Stygies Dragoon Bomb or Krast Crusader. Accompany with Rusty 17 for CP. Very consistent. Some versions use a Mars Brigade.

Forgeworld Soup

This tries to cherry pick Forgeworld stratagems in a Brigade or 2-3 Battalions. 6-12 Ryza Plasma Destroyers with the Servitor Maniple formation are the core. Support with Breachers, Lucius Corpuscarii, Mars Infiltrators, Assassins, Stygies Dragoon Bomb, or Stygies Drills+Fulgurites. Very risky, but it's had good results in some Midwest tourneys.

The "Justin Lois" List

This is AdMech melee (Stygies Drills+Fulgurites, Stygies Dragoon Bomb), Graia Rusty 17, backed by a Krast Crusader or Raven Castellan for shooting. HQ gets Necromechanic for repairing the Knight. This list is beginning to lose its appeal though, since lots of lists are still specialized against Knights.

Hi Suzuteo and other Ad Mec fans!
As a brand new player (building my first box of Skitaari right now) this break down has been very helpful!

Your description of a "Mars Gunline" seems like my idea of a starting force, but I had some questions:

Can this type of list exist at 1000 points?

What is/are Rusty 17?

I love the idea of having Ad Mec surrounding a single Knight (always wanted to build one) - does anyone have a recommendation for a list with a single knight with loadout? If one exists?

With my first Skitaari box, I have built the Ranger arquebus and I was wondering what other load-outs I should I build? Or just build regular Rangers and the Alpha?

I have a "start collecting" on the way too. Should I build 5 rangers and 5 Vanguard? What weapons would anyone suggest for these folks? Also on the Onager - I was leaning toward Icarus Array and Cognis heavy Stubber, but the -1 to non-flyers made me pause; is the Blaster a better middle of the road choice?

Thanks for any help!
Strig

the pts and list construction system are changeing in the next couple of months so when it comes to the 1000pt question its difficult to say accurately - currently vanguard tend to be preferable to rangers but if you want a bit more information

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Adeptus_Mechanicus(8E)

is a good resource for learning a little about what things do

the rusty 17 is code for the cheapest detatchment of admech (2 enginseers and 15 skittarii) taken for CP - however as we are transitioning to ninth we know things wont work that way shortly

The raiders are seriously hampered by not being infantry and not having fly. They are just begging to be move-blocked, terrain-blocked, or counter-wrapped. A big unit of raiders in particular is a nightmare to use on the table; the combination of huge cavalry bases and the cavalry keyword is miserable on any map with decent terrain coverage.

The only army they're going to seriously disrupt is a gunline without screening units, i.e. a list that is badly built and not competitive anyway. For anything else they're just a free kill that at best serves as a speedbump, and at worst allows your opponent free movement and a wrap as it moves up the board, unless you spend a very costly 2CP.

This may change in 9th if infantry and fly stop being such huge advantages.But right now, I'd much rather have sterylizors instead, which are much more flexible and therefore useful in every game.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The raiders are seriously hampered by not being infantry and not having fly. They are just begging to be move-blocked, terrain-blocked, or counter-wrapped. A big unit of raiders in particular is a nightmare to use on the table; the combination of huge cavalry bases and the cavalry keyword is miserable on any map with decent terrain coverage.

The only army they're going to seriously disrupt is a gunline without screening units, i.e. a list that is badly built and not competitive anyway. For anything else they're just a free kill that at best serves as a speedbump, and at worst allows your opponent free movement and a wrap as it moves up the board, unless you spend a very costly 2CP.

This may change in 9th if infantry and fly stop being such huge advantages.But right now, I'd much rather have sterylizors instead, which are much more flexible and therefore useful in every game.

This is kind of how I view them as well.

I see your point. But 378 pts for 3x9 Raiders makes 81 wounds on 4+/6++, and all these wounds shoot at S4 with potential of mortal wounds (+ the sergeant's pistol really good againt Primaris), and charge really decently with 3A each at S4 with one or two at AP-1. They have a crazy move + scout move, can target characters, have a nice stratagem... I see your point about movement being hindered and you're right, they're still cavalry and can't go through walls, climb steps etc. But they're not your only option in the army, you still have Fulgurites, Skitarii or the new Pteraxii for all these roles. The opponent is welcome to have a free kill on these dudes, they're not valuable due to their cost, and attacking them means not attacking your gunline screened behind.

Pteraxii are awesome I agree, but they're 8,5 pts/w, twice the Raiders. You're going to want to use them with more precision to remove specific target or lock a valuable shooty unit in CC. I wouldn't spam the board with them honestly, 2W models are much easier to remove than 3W ones and they're costlier. Doesn't make them bad though ! Their melee profile on the charge packs a punch against infantry, their problem is reaching it before getting shot at. Either DS + charge or on board and rush through. They'd be my priority target this way, and I wouldn't let them close the gap if I faced them. Anything with wings get gunned down first if I can help it, personally.

I think I'd like raiders more if they were T4 instead of T3, at least that way they could stand up a little better to both shooting and CC.

IMO Assault 24" with flat ap-1, T4 and either 2 attacks or a WS of 3+ would have been ideal. But they are so cheap pointswise, which is why they are good.
But overall I dont like that a lot of our units arent really outstanding and have their cheap pointscost as the main upside.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The raiders are seriously hampered by not being infantry and not having fly. They are just begging to be move-blocked, terrain-blocked, or counter-wrapped. A big unit of raiders in particular is a nightmare to use on the table; the combination of huge cavalry bases and the cavalry keyword is miserable on any map with decent terrain coverage.

The only army they're going to seriously disrupt is a gunline without screening units, i.e. a list that is badly built and not competitive anyway. For anything else they're just a free kill that at best serves as a speedbump, and at worst allows your opponent free movement and a wrap as it moves up the board, unless you spend a very costly 2CP.

This may change in 9th if infantry and fly stop being such huge advantages.But right now, I'd much rather have sterylizors instead, which are much more flexible and therefore useful in every game.

if you havn't charged there screen and wrapped them t1 your useing them wrong at 24"+ D6" +Charge + extra if you use a manipulus I cant see many armies you wont reach on most deployments

U02dah4 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The raiders are seriously hampered by not being infantry and not having fly. They are just begging to be move-blocked, terrain-blocked, or counter-wrapped. A big unit of raiders in particular is a nightmare to use on the table; the combination of huge cavalry bases and the cavalry keyword is miserable on any map with decent terrain coverage.

The only army they're going to seriously disrupt is a gunline without screening units, i.e. a list that is badly built and not competitive anyway. For anything else they're just a free kill that at best serves as a speedbump, and at worst allows your opponent free movement and a wrap as it moves up the board, unless you spend a very costly 2CP.

This may change in 9th if infantry and fly stop being such huge advantages.But right now, I'd much rather have sterylizors instead, which are much more flexible and therefore useful in every game.

if you havn't charged there screen and wrapped them t1 your useing them wrong at 24"+ D6" +Charge + extra if you use a manipulus I cant see many armies you wont reach on most deployments

That's a valid point. However, are these really something you want in CC? With T3 and 4+ saves, they aren't going to hold up well when it comes time for your opponent to swing back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I really wish these guys got the option for the phosphur blast carbine instead of the sulphur hounds

Target priority is key with that mentality.
Anything you'd want them to fight shouldnt be able to reliably hurt them back hard enough to be a problem. Generally if the unit isnt dedicated melee or a Marine they arent going to do much damage to you (not NO damage, not much damage) in return and any proper melee they do have nearby now has the conundrum of "do i deal with these things or do i move forward and do the job i was brought for in the first place)
Even Marines its still an AP0 attack in most cases and not an absolute gakton of attacks.

But moving 24+D6+Charge is most likely enough to skirt by the frontline screeners and get something that really, really does not want to be in melee. Unless youre facing orks, guard, or tau people tend to not have a FULL screen on all sides, just enough to block deepstrikers which doesnt block something super fast getting by.

Do Admech have a redeploy mechanic anywhere? that too would be useful for this.

Pteraxii can now jump in and out of reserves, and there's a new strategem that lets ruststalkers leave a table edge and appear from another in the same turn.

Is it possible to combine Stygies Pre-game move with the Raiders one?

i.e. Move 9" with Stygies, then the raiders move & advance before game 12"+ D6 (keeping 9" away). Then turn one move again?

i dont see why not. They are both pre-game moves and theres nothing saying you can only move once im aware of.

My take is that you could as things are currently written, but expect it to be faq'ed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I think the stratoraptor might end up being more useful than some are expecting. with the raptorial strafing fire strategem, that gives you 6 heavy phosphor blaster shots, and 2 cognis lascannon shots that will hit on a 2+. Combine that with 20-50" movement and the ability to take 2 90-degree pivots, I think these will go a long way towards negating artillery hiding behind terrain.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
well, 2+ if the new mars canticle is active

I could see that 1CP Strat being used situationally. But really, 6 heavy phosphor blaster shots and 2 lascannon shots aren't really doing me much good in the grand scheme of things and are hardly going to warrant 1CP to hit a ground target at +1BS ...

And with vehicle LOS in 8th, the maneuverability is not really necessary on the Stratoraptor, right? Now, in 9th, that could be a different story.

U02dah4 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The raiders are seriously hampered by not being infantry and not having fly. They are just begging to be move-blocked, terrain-blocked, or counter-wrapped. A big unit of raiders in particular is a nightmare to use on the table; the combination of huge cavalry bases and the cavalry keyword is miserable on any map with decent terrain coverage.

The only army they're going to seriously disrupt is a gunline without screening units, i.e. a list that is badly built and not competitive anyway. For anything else they're just a free kill that at best serves as a speedbump, and at worst allows your opponent free movement and a wrap as it moves up the board, unless you spend a very costly 2CP.

This may change in 9th if infantry and fly stop being such huge advantages.But right now, I'd much rather have sterylizors instead, which are much more flexible and therefore useful in every game.

if you havn't charged there screen and wrapped them t1 your useing them wrong at 24"+ D6" +Charge + extra if you use a manipulus I cant see many armies you wont reach on most deployments

And then they just counter-wrap *you*, and you've traded several hundred points + gangbusters for a cheap screen and given your opponent the ability to avoid your shooting for a turn as they move up the board.

Against any army with any kind of counter-charge, all you're doing is spending a bunch of points to give them a maxed secondary, free movement, and shooting immunity. Doesn't seem effective in most match-ups.

I can see the argument for them in a stygies melee list or something like that. They're a pretty cheap way to clear screens T1, something ad mech struggle with. But otherwise, I think in most games you're just throwing away points for limited gain, except against badly made or played lists that you ought to be beating anyway.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
Is it possible to combine Stygies Pre-game move with the Raiders one?

i.e. Move 9" with Stygies, then the raiders move & advance before game 12"+ D6 (keeping 9" away). Then turn one move again?

Yes but most likely you don't want to as in a lot of deployments you apply that to an omniscient mask wielding character to buff them and if you need to do both your likely out of buff range. But it is a nieche option.