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alright guys so ive learned a lot from the last few games that i have played. Im deciding on dropping defilers because they are completely useless and do nothing but irritate me. I want to go pure competitive...fluff doesnt matter at all anymore. I'm trying to keep the list at 2000 Points. This is what i have.

HQ:
Daemon Prince: 155
-Wings
-MOS
-Lash

Daemon Prince: 155
-Wings
-MOS
-Lash

Elites:
5x Terminators: 255
-4x Combie Flamers
-1x Reaper Autocannon
-3x PFs
-2x Chain Fists

Troops:
10x Zerkers: 250
-Skull Champ w/PF
(Land Raider)

10x Zerkers: 250
-Skull Champ w/PF
(Land Raider)

10x CSM: 170
-2x Meltagun
(Rhino)

10x CSM: 170
-2x Meltagun
(Rhino)

Rhino: 35

Rhino: 35

Heavy:
Land Raider: 255
-Daemonic Possession
-Havoc Launcher

Land Raider: 255
-Daemonic Possession
-Havoc Launcher

Total: 1985

Im not sure how this will run yet. I just changed it based around what units did really well for me in my games. I kept the land raiders infront of the DP and lashed a unit close enough to assault out of the LR on turn one. I figured if i had 2 LRs with 2 Zerker squads i could lay down a beating on turn one. I'm open to changes though. Like i said i just want this list to be competitive....although i dont like Oblits. Thanks guys.

I believe pure competitive CSM is
2x DP w/lash
9x Oblits
Lotsa noise marines in rhinos.

That said, with your list, I would drop the terminators as they are pretty bad in csm. I would pick up a squad of 3 oblits and your list should be pretty competitive.

Also, you might consider dropping some of the basic troops and getting 3x dreads to run forward with your zerkers.

awesome man. Thanks for the quick reply. I would give the dreads a try but i already went down that route and they really screwed me haha so im a little sour towards that unit.

I'll def. proxy in the oblits and give them a try. I want to try and stay away from running 9 of them. Mainly becaause i love the LRs and i dont feel like dropping 180 bucks on 9 oblits.

Thanks again for the reply and ill let you know how that works out for me.

I would say ur list looks pretty awesome.

However i think only 1 landraider is needed. Put in 3 oblits, they are about the same as a landraider but they have so much more killing potential and are definetly worth the points. I honestly only use the lascannons and the plasma cannons on my obliterators most of the time and they are still very effective.

As to what Timmah said, CSM terminators are indeed sketchy and "hard to use" would be how i would say it. But dropping the terminators, adding another 3 obliterators for a total of 6 would be what i would run. If you have enough points, pick up another rhino to put the spare berzerzker squad into.

Even as this list is i would love to play against it. You look to have made a challenging list here. Great job

I don't know why you hate defilers so much, I absolutely love mine. Heavy flamer and extra ccw, and run them into cc as quickly as possible. Sure, the enemy occasionally gets a lucky powerfist hit, but most sergeants have only 2 attacks. Odds are that slightly more than 1 will hit, so a good number of times they'll only get one hit. That then needs a 4+ to do any damage, and if they glance they'll do very little, and even penetrating do nothing 1/3 the time, and only annoy the defiler another 1/3.

Meanwhile, the defiler can be incredibly good against certain targets. Shrike loses his punch against a defiler, as do assault squads. Vanguard veterans loaded with power weapons can barely scratch it. Honor guards are next to useless. Lightning claw terminators are a joke, howling banshees are trash, and even khorne berserkers are little better than standard marines. Charge a defiler and a daemon prince together at the same unit and you'll put some serious hurt on things.

In addition, they're THE answer to things like nobsz. Sure, you're probably going to lose your defiler. But it's going to take several down before it sings its swan song and that S10 power weapon is a wonderful thing. And if they DON'T kill it, that's another round of instakilling goodness. Plus, it's easy to win combat. Killing 3 nobs, while taking one or two penetrating hits, means you're winning combat by 4 or 5 if you survive. Usually nob squads get brought down below fearless level after just a few casualties, so that's a Ld 5 or so check they're making. Even with a bosspole, you're likely to scare them off.

I feel like your list isn't taking advantage of the lash princes. I'd go as far as to say that you'd do better running warp time nurgle princes, just for close combat nastiness. If you use lash, use it well. Noisemarines, obliterators, flamers galore.

Lash Prince 155

Lash Prince 155

Elites

Terminator x w/ 3 Combimelta ; Chainfist

120

Terminator w/ 3 combimelta ; Chainfist 120

or

6 man w/ 6 combiplasmas and 2 Chainfists ( this makes marine players cry actually most everything cries at this its 12 ST7 ap 2 shots)

Troops

10 man Chaos Space Marine squad w/ Icon w/ 2 Meltaguns Rhino 215

10 man Chaos Space Marine Squad w/ Icon w/ 2 Meltaguns Rhino 215

10 man PlagueMarine w/ 2 Meltaguns Rhino personal Icon 295

15 Man Daemon Squad 195

H. Support

2 x Obliterators 150


2 x Obliterators 150


2 x Obliterators 150

1920 points by the way. YOu could have 4 havoc launchers to each rhino for 60 points etc..


This may cause your opponent to physically assault you..

Pretty easy to play.

First turn Daemon Princes hide behind the rhinos or leave in reserve and deepstrike them to protect or leave one etc..; 2nd Turn Everything rushes forward and fires smoke you start rolling for your reserves they all deep strike and do not scatter.

Plaguemarines = Ultimate Objective Holder / Tarpit

Daemons = Deal well with units that have power weapons good tarpit

Terminators = Kill vehicles mop up light squads w/ powerweapons ; Chainfists deals with dreads

Obliterators = Jack of All trades

CSM = Close combat if needed ; objective grabbers etc...


The second turn if you deep strike and get one daemon prince down then its over anyway as pretty much you should get something that hurts.

2nd turn climb out of rhinos if you need to and pull units to daemons and csm to assault or blast or whatver ther is a lot of crap you can do.


The point is that its actually flexible mobile and fast moving.

The best build out of C:CSM:

2xDP, Lash
2x3 Termicide
3x7 PM
3x3 Oblits

More points=more PM.

Timmah wrote:I believe pure competitive CSM is
2x DP w/lash
9x Oblits
Lotsa noise marines in rhinos.

That said, with your list, I would drop the terminators as they are pretty bad in csm. I would pick up a squad of 3 oblits and your list should be pretty competitive.

Also, you might consider dropping some of the basic troops and getting 3x dreads to run forward with your zerkers.

There are alot of competitive builds out there for CSM but the most used and easiest to use is lash/oblit spam.

I like your original list, its effictive got some good troops and packs a good CC punch, I wish there was more chaos lists out there like this.

Some changes though:

Make the termies into:

3x Termies, 3x combi-melta
3x Termies, 3x combi-melta

The great thing about termicuide units is that when they pop a LR/Rhino/Razorack/Devilfish there assault the unit inside and can disrupt the enemys entire battle plan.

If you take the Havoc launchers off the LR's and the possesion then you could offord another termicide unit.

I think this list would work better without Lash Princes. There not for every list and work best with Obliterator spam.

Some nice Gift of Chaos Demon Princes will work well. Oh no there's an enemy Chaplain/Captain/Lysander/Pedro. Its one of the best powers in the dex and is ignorned often.

Noise Marines are not the optimal CSM troops. PM are.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Noise Marines are not the optimal CSM troops. PM are.

A good mixture of PM and Noise marines is better then pure PM's.

Say

5x Plague marines, 2x meltagun, PF, Rhino
5x Plague marines, 2x meltagun, PF, Rhino
8x Noise marines, Blaster master, Power sword
8x Noise marines, Blaster master, Power sword

Noise marines can sit on home objectives and can hold there own in CC thanks to I5, power sword and chainswords.

Screw blastmasters! Way too many points and the rest of the squad does nothing.

Doomsirens!

Lord-Loss wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Noise Marines are not the optimal CSM troops. PM are.

A good mixture of PM and Noise marines is better then pure PM's.

Say

5x Plague marines, 2x meltagun, PF, Rhino
5x Plague marines, 2x meltagun, PF, Rhino
8x Noise marines, Blaster master, Power sword
8x Noise marines, Blaster master, Power sword

Noise marines can sit on home objectives and can hold there own in CC thanks to I5, power sword and chainswords.

Great suggestion here, and I second it! Blast masters are insanely good.

My only issue with running lots of smaller squads, tho, while competitive, is KP's. You rack up your number of KP's and makes it easier for your foes to get secondary objectives and things.

Spellbound wrote:Screw blastmasters! Way too many points and the rest of the squad does nothing.

Doomsirens!

You can fire all the weapons in a squad at the same target at the same time you know. You also dont always have to shoot at a vehicle. a S8 pinning blast is just as good for killing infantry and MCs.

Lord-Loss wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Noise Marines are not the optimal CSM troops. PM are.

A good mixture of PM and Noise marines is better then pure PM's.

Say

5x Plague marines, 2x meltagun, PF, Rhino
5x Plague marines, 2x meltagun, PF, Rhino
8x Noise marines, Blaster master, Power sword
8x Noise marines, Blaster master, Power sword

Noise marines can sit on home objectives and can hold there own in CC thanks to I5, power sword and chainswords.

Your squads are wrong. You want 7 PMs per squad. And an NM/PM mix is not better than pure PMs.

Just so you know if it is the look of the oblits. you dont like mod up some termies not only do they look better they are cheaper. 5 for 50 compared to 5 for 110.

yeah i was actually thinking about just using the termies... i could use some green stuff to make them looking awesome. Do you think my list would run better with the 3 oblits instead?

Im not a huge fan of how the termies run...ive never play tested oblits so im clueless.

Ill proxy in the oblits next game and update this thread...until then what is the weak point in my army that you see?

Thanks for all the advice guys.

PM are defensive, when i field them I field them to hold objectives.

Noise Marines are awesome at swiss chesseing infantry. But they lack CC and Heavy punch.

Oblits are great but can't take it like they dish it.

If tank's MUST DIE!!@!!!!! take a pred and fill it up with lascannon's

Actually a Land Raider and laspred would make a great couple.

Im prob not going to fiel a pred. my heavy slot is either going to be Oblits or nothing. I have to keep it under 2000 points =)

i love my land raiders with the lash princes to help them out. Also the rhinos work well...the only thing im debating on dropping are the termies.

Well one weak point i see is inevitably your CSM will end up in CC so you need champ. with PF in those squads since they have to get close with meltas. So lose the HL on your LR and drop a squad of termies to free up some more points for oblits. Other than that looks solid. Also since youre running lash and have footslogging berzerkers just quickly lash your opp. into CC with them.

My zerkers are running in the Land raiders. neither squad is on foot. Ill def take off the HL on both. that should free up enough points to get the PFs and the champs with my reg CSM. If i drop the termies i can easily get the oblits and still have points.

Thanks for the reply.

I hate blastmasters. Against any kind of tank it's equal to a missle launcher, and against infantry, well, they can just take cover saves IF it hits.

Maybe it requires me to be up in their face, but more models hit + ignore cover makes the Doomsiren win in my book. Now if only it caused pinning!

Shadowbrand wrote:PM are defensive, when i field them I field them to hold objectives.

Noise Marines are awesome at swiss chesseing infantry. But they lack CC and Heavy punch.

Oblits are great but can't take it like they dish it.

If tank's MUST DIE!!@!!!!! take a pred and fill it up with lascannon's

Actually a Land Raider and laspred would make a great couple.

How do Noise Marines lack CC ability? A squad of Noise Marines with sonic blasters and a doom siren make for a powerful assault unit. They get to shoot with all their assault weapons and then assault at I5. Put a PW on your champ to take advantage of his high initiative.

PMs are definatly better for holding an objective but NMs are very good at pushing a unit off of an objective.

I like to take to PM units to hold a couple objectives and then maybe two berzerker or NM units for your assault troops. Even plain CSMs can make for decent assault troops if you are short on points.

I'd also leave the LRs at home with a dual lash list as you want to use the oblits' plasma cannons or a defiler's large blast to target the units you lash together.

Blastmasters are great, especially in a Lash list. They give you extra templates to toss at the lashed enemy, and they are probably one of the best infantry mounted blast templates in the game.

I use both PMs and Noise Marines, and usually my PMs are baby-sitting the objective while the Plague Marines capture the enemies. Noise Marines have amazing firepower, and by letting them sit on the objective they can use it. Plague Marines are exceptionally sturdy, which is something I've found other units lacking after I throw them into the heart of the enemy. Granted, my Noise Marines are geared for shooting and my Plague Marines carry short ranged weapons, but I bring it up because you should look at what your units are actually geared to do instead of what they are "supposed" to be doing.

Oops forgot about the termies def. drop those instead of the LR for your zerkers.

@ Vindicator
Hmmm im not sure i understand what your saying. Drop the termies instead of the LR for zerkers?

I think your getting Alot of mixed advice but there have been some good suggestions.

Maybe swap the two CSM squads for two shooty noise marine squads.

yeah i was thinking about looking into noise marines. people seem to love PM as well.

Noise marines are great support squads and can support your Beserkers.

awesome sounds good to me. Thanks for the advice everyone...ill post how the list works out for me soon.

Can you post the updated list up so we can all see?