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I posted this on my blog thought I would share on a couple places.

Ok so surprisingly Guard armies are one of the most common armies that have floated across my "personal" work space. I have started at least 4 off the top of my head, two finished including the Krieg.

So naturally when the codex came out I wanted to make a new army. I love Forge World so I bought a Krieg army. Ive had it all together for a while and played few games. Even have enough stuff now to warrant the big Battlefoam case, about 2500-3000 pts.

In my opinion a fully tweaked and optimal lists comes from two things:

1.Reading the codex and using your brain.

2. Playing the army.

I believe each is 50% of the process.
So what could I tell from readin the codex? A lot. Two "choices" contain nothing worth using competitively - Elite and Fast Attack. Ok, that might be a bit harsh. It isnt that they arent all competitive in a gaming sense, but they arent competitive enough to win space in your list (and V's are good!). Yes, Guard ended up being one of those armies where you will always be trying to squeeze in more stuff. Quite the polar opposite of say, Eldar, which most list types cap at 1750 and totally cap at 1850 competitively (save for Mech Spam which can go on to max detachment size for Elite Troop and HS and still be competitive, but the list never changes).

So, let's get the flame bait out of the way. What in the codex is good but doesnt win space in your list? Here they are in order of good to wait nevermind.

PBS - Yeah weaken resolve is hot stuff. It owns some build types, but have no use vs. others. I do not want to hear "but agaisnt those armies its another pie!" when for the same price as a (must be) mounted unit, you can get real artillery. I cringe when I see double units in lists, as your alpha strike ability is totally weakened. (I will get to AS in a sec.)

Devil Dog - The only decent Hell Hound, its range is still too short. Compared to what you can get in HS it isnt worth it.

Platooooons - I would never touch the BS3 boys ever. Too low KP giving to kill point retrieving ratio. In my opinion all they do is just crowd the table and die. I want to be able to hit, I want BS4. I want triple meltas and powerfists and a heavy weapon.

Leman Russ - I can hear you now - "wait, all the way at the bottom?" Well, I do hesitate, but if it weren't for a specific combo I would say definitely. Every Russ turret save for the Executioner is worse than taking equal points in Medusas, Hydras, and Manticores. The basic Leman Russ is bad too. 150 pts for a basic 8/3 pie? When for the same points I can get a 10/2 medusa enclosed? You might argue the AV but I will come to that in a minute.

So what are the best choices other than the obvious ones likeVeterans in Chimeras (with 4 weapons and shotties of course) and CCS? Here they are in reverse order.

4. The one redeeming unit of the Russ chassis - Executioner/Russ combo. Its cost keeps it at #4 though. Plasma cannon Sponsons, camo netting. Keep the Russ behind a chimera and stick the Plasma tank out front. Your opponent will weather 6 templates and have to do two damage results to an AV14 unit with a 3+ save from a single unit in order to stop the Executioner from firing.

3. Manticore - A bit overpriced by about 10 pts in my opinion, but a good unit nonetheless. I dont need to explain the gun, but you should never take more than one. Minimum range and maximum shots mean diminishing returns. One is the sweet spot.

2. Dual Hydra - This is a good all around unit. There are some matchups where its fairly useless, but at 150 pts it isnt too much of a sink.

1. Dual Medusa - It wins because of the enclosed model. Okay just kidding. The gun doesnt need to be explained, but camo netting makes them a real nuisance. Same tactic as with the Russ combo if you really need to reach out and touch someone. There isnt a lot to say because its so great all round. Its like asking why Starship Troopers 3 is a bad movie.

So what is this alpha strike stuff? Yeah it is kind of a corny phrase, I have been doing it my entire career, its just how I play games, but I never really called it anything and Alpha Strike isnt going to get confused when you drop it on a stranger like "punk the dude across the table."

Basically you front load your army to wipe your opponent in the first two turns ideally. Now a lot of armies can table their opponent by turn 6, but what I look for is something that can clinch it by turn 2. They may still have stuff floating round at the end of the game,but the game was decided early, not late. By doing this you also get the huge advantage of discouraging your enemy, which can cause a "I dont care" response from your enemy when it comes to objectives. Would you like to fight tooth and nail for 7 turns or 2?

So, you front load. What does that mean? It means give me AV10 and a 10/1 melta ordnance pie for cheap (thanks to not paying for armor!). My ideal tank, GW please listen! So this is why I do not find russes ideal. Compare the Enclosed Medusa and Demolisher. Some might consider the Demolisher a superior tank due to its armor. Why? You are looking at its defenses not its firepower. You are already playing a mental losing game. I would much rather have the range to reach out and strike first. This is what makes the Hydra a decent choice. It has a long reach, high rate of fire, but we save points on armor to get more firepower. My other option is AV14 with only one autocannon for more points. You arent going to be wiping anyone with that.

This is also why PBS are bad in my opinion. Ok again not bad, but not good enough. It isnt front loading, its a gimmick effect that sets up for a combo move. YMMV

So total in my army I have:

17 meltaguns
10 lascannons either TL or BS4
5 Plasma Cannons
1 Battle Cannon
6 Multilasers
10 Heavy Flamers
8 TL Autocannons
2 St10 AP2 pies

So in an ideal game, I deploy in a certain castle formation and fire at you. If anything lives past the first two turns and hits my tanks, a unit is (maybe)popping one at a time and eating the 17 meltas and 10 HFs, plus whatever else I can bring to bear including a lot of shotties.
So there you go. My opinions. I know some will disagree but for my playstyle I think this is how Guard should be played.



Oh I forgot to mention I really only take the Russ combo because I have them painted and hate to not get use out of them. Ideal HS is the top 3.


Another thing I forgot - A single Vendetta at 2k is worth it. IMO chimeras are more tactically sound than Valks. Cheaper, searchlights (remember how I play and how Dawn of War works) can castle. I dont need the mobility.

Again YMMV

GMMStudios wrote:
So there you go. My opinions. I know some will disagree but for my playstyle I think this is how Guard should be played.

I don't play guard, i play against them. I don't like the look of your army (as in sitting on the other side of the board!), and if your opponent doesn't like what hes playing against, IMO thats a sign of a well put together force
i don't really reckon this is how guard should be played, but thats because of the variety etc available in the 'dex/fluff. So guard, imo, are meant to be played the way you WANT to play them, so you get a thumbs up there


Personally though, i rate the high armour on russes. You say you would rather the range (demolisher vs Medusa for example). What kind of in-game experiences has led you to this? why do you underrate the AV (not saying you're "wrong" or anything here, just want to hear your opinion )

Jihallah wrote:
I don't play guard, i play against them. I don't like the look of your army (as in sitting on the other side of the board!), and if your opponent doesn't like what hes playing against, IMO thats a sign of a well put together force
i don't really reckon this is how guard should be played, but thats because of the variety etc available in the 'dex/fluff. So guard, imo, are meant to be played the way you WANT to play them, so you get a thumbs up there

Thats true. You can play air cav, you can play horde on foot if you like. I dont think either, most especially the latter are any good, but they can be fun. I have enough Valks on the way to swap chimera units into them, but it will only be for fun games.

Jihallah wrote:

Personally though, i rate the high armour on russes. You say you would rather the range (demolisher vs Medusa for example). What kind of in-game experiences has led you to this? why do you underrate the AV (not saying you're "wrong" or anything here, just want to hear your opinion )

Yes I have. The russes never get shot at. The medusas never get shot at. They are the hard center of my army with 3+ cover and having to reach over other tanks to get to them. So in the end *for me* the armor isn't worth buying.

Also camo netting is basically me being hypocritical, but for the same reason I still take russes, I just like to have them. My current list is not optimal but I like the look of it and I like rolling a 3+ save on tanks the WHOLE game. Forget smoke!
I will likely drop them in tournaments though. The list is in the fine tuning phase.

Jihallah wrote:

Personally though, i rate the high armour on russes. You say you would rather the range (demolisher vs Medusa for example). What kind of in-game experiences has led you to this? why do you underrate the AV (not saying you're "wrong" or anything here, just want to hear your opinion )

Yes I have. The russes never get shot at. The medusas never get shot at. They are the hard center of my army with 3+ cover and having to reach over other tanks to get to them. So in the end *for me* the armor isn't worth buying.

Also camo netting is basically me being hypocritical, but for the same reason I still take russes, I just like to have them. My current list is not optimal but I like the look of it and I like rolling a 3+ save on tanks the WHOLE game. Forget smoke!

What you say about the alpha strike is true..in many cases a game IS decided by turn 3 when an IG army is playing..the basic design of the IG is definitely in thay direction, and is fluffy as it is the way ideally how the IG fights...

However, alpha strike works IF you get the jump on the opponent..if an opponent places his army in reserve the tables may end up turned against you..especially if it is also another uber shooty mobile army like another IG army..

Some units you totally underestimate (ex. The IG platoon), but your other statements do make sense, and I totally agree with the hydra and manticore opinion. The medusa for me is so so due to the short range and the fact it can't fire indirect, but I would pick that over the demolisher, as you have mentioned.


Anyway, many players do use other stuff also because of the fluff and coolness as well as the fact the models are nice. Luckily in the IG dex most of the choices are playeable (some are expensive gamewise, but are still useful in certain situations), which is great because at least the IG codex cannot be accused of having only 1 kind of build in order to win.

freddieyu1 wrote:Anyway, many players do use other stuff also because of the fluff and coolness as well as the fact the models are nice. Luckily in the IG dex most of the choices are playeable (some are expensive gamewise, but are still useful in certain situations), which is great because at least the IG codex cannot be accused of having only 1 kind of build in order to win.

the awesomeness of IG imo

I envy GMM , Krieg army + perfectly painted.

*cries

I do not mind if my enemy reserves. I have OotF and dual mystics.

Banewolf+ mechvet spam+ hydras/griffins/mantacore backup is pure win and don't let anyone tell you it's not. If played right in 1850 points there are few if any armies that have an answer to it.

Get ready I'm about to disagree with you. I think you really under estimate the Leman Russ. You have made two claims, fire power, and range. On the demolisher end of it you win, range is greater. However you neglect other tanks. You take a standard leman russ, it has greater range, still enough strength to instant kill almost any unit, and has a bigger pie plate. You made claims to anti armour capacity, which the medusa has in spades. However, leman russes can be augmented to deal with armour effectivly. Use a vanquisher. You have greater range, 2d6 roll, and it can't scatter off the target. then you are paying 15 points for 5 points of armor increase and the ability to fire the main gun on the move. However we can't win that argument because your medusa has 2 points better str and 1 better ap, so we will argue which is more important until the end of time.

I do have to make a point about armor values and survivability. Armor is emergency protection. Armor can't be taken away from you (nobody mention lances). If a unit deep strikes to hit you your cover save is worthless, but your armor is still there. Lets say that a lascannon comes out of the side (CREEEEEEEEED) and hits your side armor, cause you were hiding behind a ruin which didn't protect your side. Now Lets say it hits. You automatically can't shoot next turn or can never move again making you a easy target as that cannon of yours isn't turret mounted (I think). A leman russ however requires a 4+ to glance, 5 to pen. Survivability can not be left to cover, as cover is to easily taken away from you. as well leman russes can charge. They can move out of cover and don't have to be afraid of everything around them, because they have the armor to save their plasteel reinforced behinds, or rather sides and fronts.

You make good points, however when it comes to the russ chassis, the Executioner is good, the Russ is mediocre, and the rest are junk. Im sorry but they are just way way overcosted. Vanquishers roll to hit with one die on a 4+. That is a LOT of points sunk into one die roll. I would rather have medusas which if it misses might at least hit something else, and it isnt a 50% chance it is a lot better.

As for your armor arguement - I wil get a 4+ save on my heavy support choices. Nothing can take that away the way I play and still hurt my tank. Good deployment's 4+ cover save is free while higher armor you have to pay for.

How do you get the deployment 4+ cover save. If you are using other vehicles they will either explode, or become valueless as they aren't moving and aren't doing there job (transports). With infantry models you can always elect to shoot past them at the big armored angry thing without giving your opponent a cover save.

I will give you that you are placing a bit of luck on one 4+ roll, but if you take bastion breacher shells with a small template, if those things scatter then they have a good chance of becoming harmless, and its small template is unlikely to kill many infantry models. you are escentially paying 15 points for a greater assurance of the tank surviving and the possibility of sponsons in place of the camo netting which is unnecessary with the higher armor value.

I castle up when I deploy, Chimeras on the outside, 2 tanks deep.

You have to roll a 6 to take a tank off the table. Sure sometimes the outside chimeras are destroyed but most of the time they are left there.

All very good points by the OP, but I think you're focusing on one particular playstyle, where you use a very similar deployment/opening moves in every game. It's definitely a brutally effective way to play, I just don't think it will be the best in all situations.

One, if you play an all deepstriking/outflanking/super fast army, your 'front-loaded' vehicles may find themselves very vulnerable compared to the derided leman russ. Deepstriking meltaguns and anything fast enough to run up the board and launch multi-charges would be the kind of thing I mean - by refusing to take any infantry platoons, you don't have anything to screen your tanks from assault or tie up units advancing towards you. Against daemons, wouldn't an army based around russes and valks/vendettas do better?

The other thing is terrain. The more big and/or area terrain you're playing over, the less effective your tactic seems to get.

That's partly theory there, I'm not a tournament player or anything. I just think there are a lot of variables, and what you're suggesting doesn't have a clear advantage over other Guard armies in all situations. I do really like your thinking though. With eldar for example, I need to wait till turn 2 or 3 to really unleash on my opponent, I can see how building an army to operate full blast from turn 1 is an important advantage.

I would have agreed with you prior to the SW codex.

420 points gives a SW player 15 missile launchers that can split fire. If he spreads his guys across his deployment zone such that at least two squads can get side armor on something in the IG list, even with cover you're taking 4 or 5 damage table results per turn.

Throw in Bjorn the First Turn and it's pretty likely that you're the one getting alpha struck.

And that's the benefit of a at least a few Russes/Hellhound chassis in a mech gunline army; massed S7-8 firepower can't touch you.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:All very good points by the OP, but I think you're focusing on one particular playstyle,

True, and I point this out in the OP. As I said YMMV but if you like this style my play is concrete.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
One, if you play an all deepstriking/outflanking/super fast army, your 'front-loaded' vehicles may find themselves very vulnerable compared to the derided leman russ.

Mystics take care of deepstrikers.
Fast armies are fast but those typically big units can only assault a tank per turn, and they will have to eat 17 meltas on top of everything else.
I still get a cover save vs deepstrikers whether its a medusa or russ, so I still prefer the AV 12 and cheaper tank here.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
The other thing is terrain. The more big and/or area terrain you're playing over, the less effective your tactic seems to get.

To some extent lots of area terrain does suck since my opponent will get lots of saves, but if there is that much terrain that they can get across the table without me getting a clear shot, they are going slower.

Also I have played this army in cityfight style terrain and its actually different because I can leave the castle due to packed terrain and cover. I dont have to worry about giving myself a save so I can get more dramatic and fun with movement.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

That's partly theory there, I'm not a tournament player or anything. I just think there are a lot of variables, and what you're suggesting doesn't have a clear advantage over other Guard armies in all situations. I do really like your thinking though. With eldar for example, I need to wait till turn 2 or 3 to really unleash on my opponent, I can see how building an army to operate full blast from turn 1 is an important advantage.

I play vs 9 skimmer dual autarch Eldar at least twice a weak, and it is definitely a tough nut to crack because it negates a lot of my strengths and he reserves. However I have found what works well is just moving up like a rhino wall tactic and using the AP1 Meltas. I can stop the FDs early and they themselves gain no benefit from being that close.
It is a dull match but a fun match at the same time.

sourclams wrote:I would have agreed with you prior to the SW codex.

420 points gives a SW player 15 missile launchers that can split fire. If he spreads his guys across his deployment zone such that at least two squads can get side armor on something in the IG list, even with cover you're taking 4 or 5 damage table results per turn.

Throw in Bjorn the First Turn and it's pretty likely that you're the one getting alpha struck.

And that's the benefit of a at least a few Russes/Hellhound chassis in a mech gunline army; massed S7-8 firepower can't touch you.

meh, I dont really care about s8. I would worry more about the above Eldar list because it has the speed and prisms.
You need to hit, then pen, then get through my save. Even without a cover save those about units only destroy one AV12 target per turn. Okay, you pop my 55 point chimera, now the unit that was inside loses no effieciency as I either sit in the new DT or sit behind the wrecked vehicle and fire between cracks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you will never see that setup in serious competitive play.

You will never see 3 squads of Long Fangs in serious competitive play? I disagree, they're going to be in nearly every build.

They're capable of putting 3-4 light vehicles per turn into 'can't shoot' status while the other 1500 points of army bears down on you. You can't afford to waste ordnance fire on the 'Fangs when you have to deal with their rhino squads, speeders and Twolf Cav.

@Sour: man, stop teasing the dude. He's got his thing, rocking his stuff, wanted to tell the rest of us. It's cool when folks care enough to put their stuff up. He'll come to a big tourney and meet the counter soon enough.

@GMM: Keep on keeping on man. Hearing why Russes and PBS are bad reminds me of everyone talking about how twin lashes were a waste of HQ slots after Codex CSM came out. It's awesome to have your own way of looking at things. Come to Adepticon and show the rest of us the light!

Sourclams - I meant 15 missle launchers. Yeah I dont doubt Long Fangs will be around.

40k- Russes and PBS = Lash?? Im sorry is there a better psychic power in the codex? There are obviously better choices for the slots in the guard codex.

Sorry to voice my opinion. After all vanquishers rock right? I may have to do that though. I will be sure to grow my hair out so I am taken seriously.

I think we're just identifying another slight metagame shift. When the IG codex came out, mass AV12 was arguably 'the best' because the main lists to counter were Vulkan Marines and Nob Bikers. AV12 mass melta could do it pretty well.

Now Nob Bikers are basically a dead breed and people are gearing up on the long range medium strength weaponry to deal with speeder-heavy and transport-heavy lists like IG/Vulkan and as a side note Mechdar.

I don't disagree with what he's saying, but the counters are a firm part of the metagame and dealing with castled Mech IG, while difficult, isn't going to take vet 40kers by surprise.

I think it's awesome that OP is theorybashing and 'rocking this stuff'. My delivery just comes across as a dick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GMMStudios wrote:Sourclams - I meant 15 missle launchers. Yeah I dont doubt Long Fangs will be around.

I politely disagree. ML Fangs are the 'in thing' these days. Everyone and their furry uncle will have at least 10.

After all vanquishers rock right? I may have to do that though.

You can try them out, but unless you're always getting first turn versus four Land Raiders, there's really no worse use of points. What makes the Vanq cannon bad is BS3, lack of AP1, and no blast option for dealing with infantry.

Regardless, I suggest you try them out just to get the full effect, but do NOT buy the gorgeous Forge World bits until you KNOW that these things are for you. My Vanq sits on the shelf, quietly looking shiny, waiting for a chance to do... something.

I was being sarcastic about the Vanq. I know its the worst tank in the book

And you werent the one being an ass don't worry

The Vanquisher is definitely the worst tank in the codex and fielding Pask is simply wasting more points. The mystics can help to make the list work, however I have heard some substantial rumors that the option to field them as an ally will be going away soon... First they are too cheap for what you get in return. Second the were designed as a counter to deep strking lesser daemons that tended to scatter towards the enemy and they could assault the same turn they arrived.

So if it were me I'd steer away from relying upon mystics.

I think the castle with camo netting thrown in is sound. With the mystics deep striking enemy units will have to come in on the flanks.

I am wondering if you plan to field an astropath and what value do you see in this particular model.

G

Or is a Punisher worse than the Vanquisher?

I wouldn't rely on mystics either GBF, they are a helpful, cheap trick and should be treated as such.

I don't think anyone relies on Mystics, they're just too cheap not to include in any sort of Imperial gunline, be it SM, IG, or SoB.

Expect the Mystical retinue to disappear entirely when Inquisition is re-done.

However, for the next 28 months, Mystic it up!

I dont take astropath because I dont reserve, but Officer of the fleet is good to try and "convince" people to deploy on the table.

But it totally backfires and really helps armies like reserving nurgle so its a toss up. I love playing my nurgle vs. OotF!!!

You could always try to get the Command Squad stuck in combat and killed, making the enemy deploy well back if they want the Command Squad to live

PBS: I take these because the rest of my army is good enough to win without these, and this is just an insurance to deal with special cases. The extra pie plate isn't bad but like you said it's not as good as a heavy tank for the same pts.

Alpha Strike in general: I dont think that getting Camo means that you're not fully committing to an Alpha Strike. I think that having one of your tanks in cover is what means you're not fully committing to an Alpha Strike (Barring special cases, the second tank might only fire its main gun if it is itself in cover, and not buying the sponsons isn't alpha-strikey, as the sponsons have a great points-getting-back cost but don't increase survivability.)

I've gota say, your strategy is a new and interesting take on how to really rock the new Guard builds. I'm not here to rip the way you play or impose upon you my methods of playing but I have some disagreements with you on a few points.

First up; the PBS. People either seem to love these guys or hate them with a passion. I have to say it is most likely one of the most cost efficient units in the Guard codex. For 155 points you get an 8 psyker PBS with a chimera, considering the abilities of this squad thats cheap as dirt. In any game you play against a non-fearless opponent they can rack vast amounts of points. Playing orks with a pesky KFF big mek? No problem. 300 points of terminators? No sweat. Bunch of marines up in your grill? Adios amigos! To top it off if the weaken resolve wont work for you then you can drop a pie plate that will kill marines half the time. Not to mention the anti charge abilities of the h flamer chimera. Its a great unit but should you run more than one? Most likely not.

Second up, the Vendetta. This entry requires little explanation, three twin linked lascannons that can outflank, scout move, and carry vets for 130 points, to me its a no brainer. The unit also allows for the best potential alpha strike in the game if you get the first turn.

As for Leman Russes, well thats a huge category in and of itself. For your play style I can understand your concern over using them so its understandable.

Last, but not least, the infantry platoon. What can I say for a grand total of about 245 points you get two squads with lascannons (which can be twin linked with orders) and a PCS with 4 flamers (arguably one of the best counter assault units in the game) in a mobile chimera. O wait, they can all score? These guys are your baby sitters and your back up. While Vendettas skim around contesting enemy objectives your baby sitters can hold yours. The one caveat here is KP, if you play in a heavy KP tourny I can understand having reservations about these bad boys.

All in all though, I applaud your idea and strat. I think it will be a hard game for a lot of opponents that you find yourself playing against. Unfortunately I can see you running into huge problems against highly mobile guard players and space wolves, especially in missions based around holding objectives.

I think what a lot of people are missing about Platoons are the orders. They are meant to be lead and ordered, and when good application of orders is factored in they can stand up to Mechvets. A single platoon supported by Mechvets opens up a lot of scoring units and fire support.

I think your strategy is interesting, but I started this game playing Plague Marines. I'm not sure I can stand units that can't take the punishment they dish out. I'm not sure there is a way to beat this except do it better or take it and survive. I don't think the latter option is viable.

Manstein - I agree with you, but its not really that new, its just boiling the army down to its most potent. All people have to do is get over all the shiny toys.

Because of limitations on assaulting tanks and how many sheer tanks I have, fast armies arent that hard to deal with. They are one of the biggest threats but they can be handled. I played vs an air cav army today with Russ variant support and I beat it 13 KP to 1 (popped a hydra).

A funny story, he didnt believe hydras were twin linked. I was sure they were. I looked, sure enough I couldnt see anything. It boggled my mind as I KNEW of course they were. I conceded since I could not prove it and played unlinked all game. I thought maybe it was in an FAQ then? After the game was over I flipped through the book and in the army list entry it says it is twin linked. Not in the fluff section, not in the back, etc etc. A testament to great book writing! Im not liking these new formats at all.

Gotta agree that the easy availabity of cover saves has made Russes take a huge hit in effectiveness. I have a hard time justifying their point value in armies these days. The shorter ranged Russ variants that need to move forward to get into shooting range in particular seem to get just devoured in assault. Vanilla Russes parked behind blob squads for fire support do okay... but only "okay".

Anyone experimented with the "no cover save" Russ variant? I'm curious to see how stripped down cheapo versions of those would do. Not great vs MEQs obviously... but not all armies are MEQs.