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How many heavy weapons should I be looking to field if I want to run an Infantry heavy IG army? Im not talking exclusively, I may field some Devil Dogs for the need of Melta.

Also, how many (if any) Heavy Weapon Squads should I field? It is a very nice dense expenditure of points but the unit is terribly fragile.

Thanks

Heavy Weapon Squads = 0. They're absolutely horrible, even in casual games.

Dont get me wrong, heavy weapons are great in many types of armies... but actual heavy weapon squads are just silly.

If you can get at least 3 heavy weapon squads on the field without infringing the points of your blob and your big guns, that's worthwhile. Fewer than 3 HW squads is too vulnerable because it doesn't provide enough target saturation.

But there's really no reason to take anything other than autocannons as a HW squad--a gun with a high fire rate that wants to saturate fire in groups that are a really good value (cheaper than the same gun in any other unit). It's your long-range anti-transport fire, but low-priority enough that they either won't draw fire, or will be expendable if somebody decides to waste shots on em. HBs cost too much for a HWT, missiles don't work well with BS3 units, and lascannons are a good value, but will make your opponent want to shoot at them.

No no no, you strange person. Heavy Weapon squads are some of the most point efficient infantry heavy weapons you can field with proper use of orders.

What is bad about them? They are instant deathed to S6+ weapons. They only need to lose 1 squad to take a morale test, and they are only Ld7. They are only BS3.

These are all problems, but every one of them has a solution. They need to be commanded. With a CCS with a Regimental Standard and Get Back in the Fight! order fixes their morale issue. If they take a lot of fire, you can go to ground and use Get Back in the Fight! to let them continue firing on your turn. BS3 sucks, unless you twin-link it (Bring it down!). On top of that, they are actually pretty cheap weapons platforms that score. The Armored Fists (Infantry in Chimeras) and Mechvets can push to the enemy while your Heavy Weapon teams and vehicles hold down the fort.

Really, it's your army so run what you want of course. But I think most opponents are going to think you're a sucker for wasting points on HWS.

But do you really want to be running units of 3 models who are insta-killed by S6? Who only have a 50% chance to successfully obey orders? Who run 50% of the time when you kill one model?

I like autocannons in general... but autocannon HWS costs exactly the same amount as a Hydra. Hydra has 2 shots less but: longer range, TL without orders, doesnt run, ignores speed saves, and is a vehicle chassis so much tougher than 3 T3 infantry models. Really, I cant see any reason to run an autocannon HWS when Hydras exist.

ML/Lascannon HWS are even more expensive and frankly arent very effective vs their logical target (heavy vehicles). The first time you bounce 12 lascannon shots off a Land Raider you're going to start wondering why you spent 420 points on them instead of taking meltavets or such instead.

Sure, you can "fix" some of the problems with HWS... by investing yet MORE points in them. Kell to solve the order consistency problems... valuable order slots to make them stop running (although theyre likely to be in the backfield so it's entirely possible they'll flee off the board before the officer has a chance to catch them). And if you're using an order to stop them from fleeing then that's an order that isnt telling something to twin link at the enemy. Expensive Commissar Lords. But why not just use the points in the first place on something that's more effective without throwing yet more points at it?

I'm not even sure target saturation is valid argument vs a competent player. Long range S6+ shots are not that uncommon in the game. And I really dont see a savvy player not shooting a HWS when it's an easy kill and will immediately shut down those guns without having to kill 8 ablative guard wounds first. Not to mention that running more to target saturate is going to totally screw you over in kill point games.

Heavy weapons: one for every inf squad, either lascannons or autocannons, depending on your list

As for heavy weapons squads; most FA or HS options do it better. In HWS I'd consider mortars, because they're a 60 point scoring unit that can keep out of LOS and still contribute. Other HWS are very fragile, and I'd only use them if the weapon they're using is available on a lot of other choices in my list lowering their target priority.

Ivan wrote: Who only have a 50% chance to successfully obey orders? Who run 50% of the time when you kill one model?

58% (edit: to obey orders, that is. They have a 42% chance of running)

Ivan wrote:
I like autocannons in general... but autocannon HWS costs exactly the same amount as a Hydra. ... Really, I cant see any reason to run an autocannon HWS when Hydras exist.

Actually the AC team is 10 points less than a hydra. 150 points worth of hydras averages 6 hits per volley. 130 points worth of AC teams, without "bring it down" orders, averages...6 hits per volley. Autocannon HWS are also scoring.

But also, as mentioned in my original post, I don't advocate taking autocannon squads instead of hydras. Take autocannon squads as well as hydras--to give you more autocannons since you don't want to fill more than one heavy slot with hydras. If it were a choice between one and the other, I'd take hydras first.

Ivan wrote:
ML/Lascannon HWS are even more expensive and frankly arent very effective vs their logical target

As mentioned in my original post, autocannons are the only things worth taking in a HWT.

Ivan wrote:
Sure, you can "fix" some of the problems with HWS... by investing yet MORE points in them. Kell to solve the order consistency problems... valuable order slots to make them stop running (although theyre likely to be in the backfield so it's entirely possible they'll flee off the board before the officer has a chance to catch them). And if you're using an order to stop them from fleeing then that's an order that isnt telling something to twin link at the enemy. Expensive Commissar Lords. But why not just use the points in the first place on something that's more effective without throwing yet more points at it?

I agree. Once you start buying upgrades or characters just to support the teams, that blows the whole point of having a cheap unit out of the water.

I think the proper role for HWTs is that, once you've got your heavy guns (including hydras) and your infantry blobs and the other things you need to run an infantry list, nothing you can spend points on will "pack" autocannons more efficiently into your build than AC teams. A 40 point infantry squad can pack a maximum of one autocannon, so to match the firepower of one 65 point AC squad, you'd have to spend a minimum of 120 points on infantry squads (assuming you didn't buy any specials or other upgrades). When they're that cheap and expendable, who cares if they get shot off the board.

Ivan wrote:
I'm not even sure target saturation is valid argument vs a competent player. Long range S6+ shots are not that uncommon in the game. And I really dont see a savvy player not shooting a HWS when it's an easy kill and will immediately shut down those guns without having to kill 8 ablative guard wounds first. Not to mention that running more to target saturate is going to totally screw you over in kill point games.

Ahh, it reminds me of the old days when everybody was saying, "mechanized armies aren't feasible because rhinos and drop pods give up KPs too easy!" and ignoring those of us who were saying, "You're getting bad results because you need at least three for target saturation." If you want the effective build, you have to lay some KPs out there sometimes. As long as you're scoring more KPs than you're losing, it doesn't matter how many you lose.

I personally think there are no weapons worth taking in infantry squads besides autocannons or lascannons (I prefer lascannons myself, since I like to take scout sentinels and hydras to pop transports and they've always been enough).

If you want heavy weapons squads, I'm going to say that mortar squads are great. They're cheaper than a Griffon but have 3 times the firepower, and you can just bury them in your other infantry so they get their 4+ save.

makr wrote:I personally think there are no weapons worth taking in infantry squads besides autocannons or lascannons

special weapons are nearly a must. a 5 pt flamer is so hard to argue with.

makr wrote:If you want heavy weapons squads, I'm going to say that mortar squads are great. They're cheaper than a Griffon but have 3 times the firepower, and you can just bury them in your other infantry so they get their 4+ save.

I don't think you understand what 3 times the firepower means. The Griffon has twice the strength, AP4, is a large blast, and rerolls scatter. They're so much better than 3 mortars, it's not even a reasonable comparison. I'd still not say griffons are amazing, but are pretty damn points-efficient infantry killers.

Disclaimer: Run your army the way you like. Really, you paid for the models and spent the time assembling/painting them. Who am I to tell you what to run? That said, the following comments are from a competitive and semi-competitive viewpoint. We all know that some units and selections in this game will make mean opponents literally laugh in your face if you run them in a seriou game. Please dont flame me.

When I started my Guard army back in 4th edition, the fluff was that they were an anti-tank regiment. I ran lascannons in every squad, ran heavy weapon squads full of lascannons, and routinely ran 12-15 in every army. They served adequately enough.

Then 5th edition came out with the new vehicle damage chart. And I kept on trying to run lascannons. Wow what a fiasco. Of course, the old Guard codex didnt mesh well with 5th edition in general. I'd routinely bounce all 12 off a Land Raider shoved into my face... then the next turn the contents would advance, unload, and multi-unit charge to destroy half my army. There were a few games where the rest of their army, out of politeness, stayed in their deployment zone and didnt participate in the battle. He'd still win. I started switching to autocannons but since they werent assembled or painted, kept running lascannons for about the first month after the new Guard codex came out. Trust me, even in the new codex lascannons are overpriced and suck. Lascannons exist to fight heavy vehicles... and thanks to the 5th edition rules, theyre not actually any good at that job. But 5th edition grips in general are beyond the scope of this thread.

Then after a weekend of furious painting, I got a dozen autocannons done at once. Started using those instead of lascannons. Used them mixed into blob squads... used them in HWS... used them in PCS and CCS, basically if a squad COULD take one, I did. I learned things.

My point is... trust me... heavy weapon squads of lascannons are STUPID. Heavy weapon squads of mortars, heavy bolters (a weapon that is now frankly obsolete with autocannons costing the same), and missile launchers are a laughable joke. They do absolutely nothing that couldnt be done more efficiently by other things in the army list. I've got a dozen lascannons and 6 missile launchers that have been sitting in my carrying case literally for months. I just cant come up with any reason to use them. When I do trot them out for VERY casual games... they fail spectacularly.

Im personally thinking about fielding heavy bolters en-mass.

While I can see the awesome of Hydras, I don't want to field any/many vehicles so there's that. Infantry will also always have a 4+ cover. A single row of guardsmen will give you 50%+ cover whilst those same guardsmen may well not cover 50% of the tank. Yes, I don't like the str6 ID-ness of the squad nor the paltry LD7 nor the tiny squad size, but I do think they may be feasible, for cheap expendable firepower.

The bolters are there to wound stuff on 2's/3's and give me the higher ROF I will want versus massed enemy infantry. I'll field autocannons in the PC and a couple of my blobbed infantry squads - the rest will be blobbed lascannons.

Now... specific rebuttals...

58% (edit: to obey orders, that is. They have a 42% chance of running)

Oh, that makes a HUGE difference.

Actually the AC team is 10 points less than a hydra. 150 points worth of hydras averages 6 hits per volley. 130 points worth of AC teams, without "bring it down" orders, averages...6 hits per volley. Autocannon HWS are also scoring.

I just checked the codex. They're exactly the same point value.

As mentioned in my original post, autocannons are the only things worth taking in a HWT.

I agree, insofar as HWS go. But even an autocannon HWS isnt worth fielding in my opinion.

I think the proper role for HWTs is that, once you've got your heavy guns (including hydras) and your infantry blobs and the other things you need to run an infantry list, nothing you can spend points on will "pack" autocannons more efficiently into your build than AC teams. A 40 point infantry squad can pack a maximum of one autocannon, so to match the firepower of one 65 point AC squad, you'd have to spend a minimum of 120 points on infantry squads (assuming you didn't buy any specials or other upgrades). When they're that cheap and expendable, who cares if they get shot off the board.

I think your numbers are messed up here. Maybe assorted typos somewhere? I just checked the codex to make sure and there are several problems with the point values you are listing. Were there multiple printings of the codex with different point values and I havent heard about it, perhaps? Entirely possible.

"You're getting bad results because you need at least three for target saturation."

Trust me, I understand the concept of target saturation. I'm actually quite impressed, lots of people DONT seem to understand the concept and it's come up multiple times in this thread.

If you want heavy weapons squads, I'm going to say that mortar squads are great. They're cheaper than a Griffon but have 3 times the firepower, and you can just bury them in your other infantry so they get their 4+ save.

Uh... what? Really? When I FIRST started playing... even before I knew what kind of regiment I wanted to run... I assembled several mortar teams because I thought they were thematically cool. Also several missile launcher teams and grenade launchers for special weapons. I played a few dozen games with them and immediately regretted all of them. They've all collected dust. Except the Grenade Launcher. It's new cheap point cost in the 5th edition Guard codex means they were called out of premature requirement and have been serving quite well since. Regardless, comparing something good for it's point value (the Griffin) to something utterly blatantly horrible for it's point value (mortar HWSs) is just laughable. I've seen people literally get laughed at for running mortars. Then they would draw offense at the laughter, vow to crush their opponent for it, then fail spectacularly. I once saw a kid (13 or so years old) get so mad after a situation like this that he literally threw away the mortar teams after the game. I salvaged them out of the garbage. They got converted into autocannons and have served well since.

I'd still not say griffons are amazing, but are pretty damn points-efficient infantry killers.

I'd say they ARE pretty decent for their point value. They're dirt cheap and extremely accurate pieplates. Not going to do anything vs 3+ saves, I know... but theyre 75 points. You can trick out a Sentinel to cost more than 75 points. Compared to a mortar HWS... no contest. But that's a bit off topic.

Sorry if I'm being a bit long winded. I guess I'm just in the mood to discuss 40k tonight.












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Im personally thinking about fielding heavy bolters en-mass.

I tried proxying massed heavy bolters several times. 5 points more and -1 shot each for +12" range, +2 str (huge)... the increased ability to threaten light vehicles (especially Rhinos vs Marines/CSM, especially on turn 1 when there simply ARENT any unmounted infantry to shoot at) totally justified things. Honsly, I'm inclined to think the heavy bolter is simply obsolete as a weapon system for Guard. Should be 5 points less than autocannons.

I tried proxying massed heavy bolters several times. 5 points more and -1 shot each for +12" range, +2 str (huge)... the increased ability to threaten light vehicles (especially Rhinos vs Marines/CSM, especially on turn 1 when there simply ARENT any unmounted infantry to shoot at) totally justified things. Honsly, I'm inclined to think the heavy bolter is simply obsolete as a weapon system for Guard. Should be 5 points less than autocannons.

They are the same price as the AC. I do agree that heavy bolters are an obsolete weapon for guard. I only have 3 in my 1750 guard list, and that is because I chose turret HF on a couple of chimeras a long time ago. I also use a couple in friendly games because I have some cool mini-diorama heavy weapon teams with HB's. They are however totally outclassed by the AC (or the HF/ML on vehicles)

For HB to be an option, they should cost 5 pts (mortar free?), and for chimeras, the HF should probably cost 5 pts to make it an actual choice

Oops, yeah my points are off. One AC squad is 75 points.

Don't use any heavy weapon squads and instead use a leamon russ(s) as they are better for the points as they have more weapons and better armour and chance of staying alive.

Saltoric wrote:Don't use any heavy weapon squads and instead use a Leman Russ(es) as they are better for the points as they have more weapons and better armour and chance of staying alive.

But are not scoring, do not actually have as many weapons, and can not take orders. However, the survivability of a Leman Russ can't be denied.

(fixed your post).

Ivan wrote:Heavy Weapon Squads = 0. They're absolutely horrible, even in casual games.

Man last time i played with a IG ally his ML team sat in a watchtower all game because they were too low priority to be shot at, apparently, but they certainly took their toll on our SM opponent after most of my plasma got Leman Russ'd in the first turn

I'm not sure the fact that a heavy weapon squad is s coring makes all that much difference. Theyre not likely to be moving across the board to capture enemy objectives. And to even get HWS you must have blob squads, who are far more competent at holding your own objectives. Scoring units are nice and all but it's so situational with HWSs that I'm not sure it's important enough to factor into the discussion.

I personally run 2 heavy weapon squads; 1 anti-tank (2 missiles, 1 lascannon ) and 1 entirely autocannon based unit. I hated it when I had my heavy weapons in my squads because of the the fact that I couldn't shoot a lasgun at a tank, or had to use my one lascannon shot on closing infantry. I like to keep the two separate so that the heavy weapons can shoot at the larger things like tanks and MCs while my infantry sprint around FRFSRF-ing enemy infantry. this is just how i have my list exclusively for our gaming group, YMMV.

CommissarKhaine wrote:Heavy weapons: one for every inf squad, either lascannons or autocannons, depending on your list

What he said.................

So If I do field autocannon HWS and include more autocannons & lascannons (and the Horsawesome Grenade Launcher) within my Infantry squads - Will I have enough anti horde-troop firepower?

If you want to kill hordes, you should look at flamer templates and other cover-denying things. With infantry-only, that means flamers and heavy flamers in vet and special weapon squads. But if you have any tanks at all (chimeras, devil dogs) , just putting heavy flamers on the hull mounts would be a huge help, and/or rockets on a valk.

Autocannons and lascannons are really for busting transports and medium/light armor at range. They don't have the rate of fire or the cover-ignoring ability to kill hordes effectively.