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Or attacks whose S is 2xT. Rumor has it DC stay at T4. Hence, no FNP if hit by a Krak Missle.

Fate is right, you don't get FNP from a shot double your toughness or higher. Nor do you get it if you're hit with a weapon that bypasses your armor save (2+ in this instance)

I actually have a point I'll bring up as to why they're giving Death Company 2+ saves.

It isn't because they are wearing artificer armor. They're wearing their normal power armor. However, they're so blood-frenzied/stuck in the delusion that they're actually Sanguinius while gripped by the Black Rage that shots that would normally give them pause or at least stagger them back don't even phase them. They don't even feel the odd lasgun shot that happens to punch a hole in their power armor to scorch the flesh underneath, or that autocannon shot that blasts a hole through their lower abdomen. This may be GW's way of representing death company taking more hits and wading through gunfire as they are known to do in the fluff. Of course FNP is also appropriate. Marine gets his arm blown off at the elbow. He doesn't even realize it's gone.

Of course all of these injuries do cause eventual death to the marine more often than not, but not before they reap a heavy toll on whomever they're fighting.

Just some thoughts on that.

Also, check this out. I posted it on page 7, but some people (Therion) seem to have missed it. So I'll repost it again for gits and shiggles.

Tantalus Lander
Skimmer, Fast, Deep Strike
Front:13 Side:11 Rear:10 BS:4
Two assault cannons, and a forward twin-linked special weapon
Transport Capacity:
16 models (Terminators/Jump pack troops count double)
OR
5 bikes (attack bikes count double)
OR
1 dreadnought

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/01/40k-rumors-tantalus-lander.html

I'm guessing this puppy is going to cost at least 200 pts, probably more. We'll see.

Take it easy.

-RT-

Fateweaver wrote:Or attacks whose S is 2xT. Rumor has it DC stay at T4. Hence, no FNP if hit by a Krak Missle.

Correct, I often forget that, of course my opponents often remind me. I'll remember it myself one of these days ;-)

I'm guessing this puppy is going to cost at least 200 pts, probably more. We'll see.

I'm not sure why a unit like that even gets added. It's a Wave Serpent/Falcon, without the holo-fields. Weak, weak, weak. If you can buy 7 Rhinos for the price of one Tantalus, or get better guns and more armor for pretty much the same price, it sure is awful. It all comes down to the points cost. If it costs 120-150 points I'm sure it will be used somewhat. If it costs much more than that, GW's planned megabucks Tantalus sales go byebye.

The funniest thing is you pay 10 points per Marine for jump packs (mobility upgrades) and still have to buy a transport for them. It's just a terrible concept.

Sounds like 2 of my Heavy slots are already going to be taken up. 1 for the Devastors so I can have 10 DC, and 1 for my LR to hold the DC. It almost seems like we're going to be forced to build our lists around DC.

My guess is that Tantalus will start around 100pts, and end up around 150 after weapon and upgrade purchases. Seeing that it is armoured like a Hammerhead or Predator, but has transport capacity rather then heavy weaponry.

Red__Thirst wrote:Fate is right, you don't get FNP from a shot double your toughness or higher. Nor do you get it if you're hit with a weapon that bypasses your armor save (2+ in this instance)


-RT-

Slight clarification here. FnP is bypassed by AP2, AP1, 2xT, and CC-no save wounds, only. Bypassing armor does not necessarily guarantee no FnP, which I believe is a change from 4th. Example: A model with 4+ save, T4 and FnP will benefit from a FnP save against a wound caused by a Str 6 AP 3 weap, even though he would not get an armor save.

SO WAHT UNIT CAN TAKE 16?

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:SO WAHT UNIT CAN TAKE 16?

G

10 marines, 5 honor guard, 1 IC?

8 Termies?

Red__Thirst wrote:Fate is right, you don't get FNP from a shot double your toughness or higher. Nor do you get it if you're hit with a weapon that bypasses your armor save (2+ in this instance)

I actually have a point I'll bring up as to why they're giving Death Company 2+ saves.

It isn't because they are wearing artificer armor. They're wearing their normal power armor. However, they're so blood-frenzied/stuck in the delusion that they're actually Sanguinius while gripped by the Black Rage that shots that would normally give them pause or at least stagger them back don't even phase them. They don't even feel the odd lasgun shot that happens to punch a hole in their power armor to scorch the flesh underneath, or that autocannon shot that blasts a hole through their lower abdomen. This may be GW's way of representing death company taking more hits and wading through gunfire as they are known to do in the fluff. Of course FNP is also appropriate. Marine gets his arm blown off at the elbow. He doesn't even realize it's gone.

Of course all of these injuries do cause eventual death to the marine more often than not, but not before they reap a heavy toll on whomever they're fighting.

Just some thoughts on that.

-RT-

I don't see how an armor save of 2+ represents their ability to feel less pain... seems like they covered that by FnP. A higher toughness would make sense but ya know, what can ya do? Just throwing my thoughts on the matter out there, not trying to be provocative or anything.

It's a very good explanation (at least better than the assumption that they all have artificer armor).

Sisters have 3+ save and it's called "power armor" but it's not the same type of power armor that Marines wear.

Fateweaver wrote:I'm sure a Marine isn't going to grab a LR track and halt it from moving.

How would you explain a Rhino than? No novel or fluff I've ever read had a SM ripping off a Rhino's top hatch, grabbing the tracks of the rhino and ripping them off or ripping off the hull mounted gun from a chimera, or ripping it's turret off.

Rending on 9ft human who don't have mono-molecular thin claws (such as Nids and Daemons) is lame.

Though in the .pdf codex DC are a joke anyway as is the entirety of the BA .pdf.

The Blood Angels Novel describes 1 Death Company member destroying a Chaos Dred with just his power sword.

Power swords cut through armor (I still think all power weapons should give a bonus against armor as they are designed to cut through anything) so again Rending had nothing to do with it.

Chamleoneyes wrote:Sounds like 2 of my Heavy slots are already going to be taken up. 1 for the Devastors so I can have 10 DC, and 1 for my LR to hold the DC. It almost seems like we're going to be forced to build our lists around DC.

My guess is that Tantalus will start around 100pts, and end up around 150 after weapon and upgrade purchases. Seeing that it is armoured like a Hammerhead or Predator, but has transport capacity rather then heavy weaponry.

What are you going to bring to make them ignore my Sister's invulnerable saves and derisive giggling?

:-P Possibly hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's...

Green Blow Fly wrote:SO WAHT UNIT CAN TAKE 16?

G

Maybe the Fallout-esque Baal Initiates? Would be interesting for a Marine army to take hordes of 4+ save dudes.
It would also be interesting to steal Black Templars' thunder again, but whatevs.

Yeah for sure

Fateweaver wrote:It's a very good explanation (at least better than the assumption that they all have artificer armor).

Sisters have 3+ save and it's called "power armor" but it's not the same type of power armor that Marines wear.

I wouldn't say anywhere close to "very good" but we will just have to agree to disagree about this because everyone's perception of what their
soldiers are doing "in game" per say is different.

Ok back to BAs!

what about that rumor about taking termies instead of honor guard for the bonus, anything come of that?

Thank God not everyone plays tournaments and how dare GW make units that won't work in tournaments? I think all codeciies for Marines should just be an entry for Vulkan, Terminators should ONLY be allowed TH/SS and the only HS choice should be LRC's and the only specials that should be availabe are melta, flamers and plasmaguns.

I'm not gonna comment on whether DC are terrible or awesome because, frankly, I have a lot of catching up to do on this topic...

However, don't you think it's somewhat stupid to make a unit non-competitive purely for the hell of it? Can't a unit be BOTH pretty good and fluffy?

Ya, it's hard to end up with several options that are exactly equal, but saying "oh we never meant for this unit to be competitive" is such a cop-out.

MinMax wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:If 2 or more Tactical Squads are in the list the DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander as transport.

- If 1 or more Assault Squads are in the list the DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) Points per model.

- If 1 or more Devastator Squads are in the list the DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.

- If 1 or more Honor Guard Squads are in the list the DC may buy Powerweapons, Powerfists and Powerclaws (for the usual prices).

This seems sort of silly, fluff-wise.

"These Death Company shall be armed with Power Weapons, in order that they mighty bring down a great score of enemies before their final rest... Oh, wait. We didn't bring any Honour Guard (or Terminators, as the case may be). Shoot, well, forget THAT idea. No Devastators either? Man. Guess we're stuck with just five of them!"

Yeah, this sounds really lame, I'm hoping it's just a case of chinese whispers, where a sensible rule got turned on its head after a few repetitions.

Fateweaver wrote:Death Company

0-1 non-slot Elites

5 DC, ~25 pts/model

BP&CCW, Sv2+
ASKNF, FNP, FC, Fearless,
Black Rage: Rage, WFB Frenzy-like Furious Charge

- If 2+ Tactical Squads, DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander Transport.
- If 1+ Assault Squads, DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) pts each.
- If 1+ Devastator Squads, DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.
- If 1+ Honor Guard, DC may buy PW, PF, and LCs (for the usual prices).
- Chaplain <6" of the DC makes the lose Black Rage and gain Red Fury.

This is pretty decent, actually.

Rule-wise: Sv2+ & FNP is pretty good surviability, and Furious, Rage & Frenzy stack nicely. A reasonable ruleset.

Cost-wise: 18 pts Veteran, +3 Sv2+, +3 FNP, +3 FC, +1 Fearless, -2 Rage / +2 Frenzy = 18 + 10 = 28 pts nominal. Factoring a grouped option, I think they're fairly priced.

Options: It's annoying that everything is linked, new GW SC-style, but I have no issues with them per se. Assault Squad or Tacs must be Troops, so DC will have an mobility option. Devastators are a oddity to link the size, but no major problem (I'll field cheap HB or flexible ML Devs). Special CCWs are good, but the goodness of Honor Guard will be an important question.

Overall, I'm good with this. DC aren't mandatory, aren't random, and aren't unlimited in size. That means players can build the DC that they want as a dedicated unit.


As an aside, I wonder if GW will make more units option-linked to other units. *cough*C: Inquisition*cough*

number9dream wrote:

Thank God not everyone plays tournaments and how dare GW make units that won't work in tournaments? I think all codeciies for Marines should just be an entry for Vulkan, Terminators should ONLY be allowed TH/SS and the only HS choice should be LRC's and the only specials that should be availabe are melta, flamers and plasmaguns.

I'm not gonna comment on whether DC are terrible or awesome because, frankly, I have a lot of catching up to do on this topic...

However, don't you think it's somewhat stupid to make a unit non-competitive purely for the hell of it? Can't a unit be BOTH pretty good and fluffy?

Ya, it's hard to end up with several options that are exactly equal, but saying "oh we never meant for this unit to be competitive" is such a cop-out.

MinMax wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:If 2 or more Tactical Squads are in the list the DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander as transport.

- If 1 or more Assault Squads are in the list the DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) Points per model.

- If 1 or more Devastator Squads are in the list the DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.

- If 1 or more Honor Guard Squads are in the list the DC may buy Powerweapons, Powerfists and Powerclaws (for the usual prices).

This seems sort of silly, fluff-wise.

"These Death Company shall be armed with Power Weapons, in order that they mighty bring down a great score of enemies before their final rest... Oh, wait. We didn't bring any Honour Guard (or Terminators, as the case may be). Shoot, well, forget THAT idea. No Devastators either? Man. Guess we're stuck with just five of them!"

Yeah, this sounds really lame, I'm hoping it's just a case of chinese whispers, where a sensible rule got turned on its head after a few repetitions.

If something doesn't work against ANY unit out there it's not competitive. If it works against at least one unit than it can be considered competitive. Problem with most people is their idea of competitive is that "it must destroy anything and everything". When you get several units like that it ALWAYS comes down to mathhammer and that ruins the game.

DC will at most cost 280 for 10 without specials/power weapons. It doesn't take a slot on the Force Org and more importantly it probably means that the cost of the DC are not "hidden" within the rest of the army. It's why DC suck now. Can't rely on rending (I personally would take a fist over rending any day of the week) and if you don't WANT to take the DC you might as well since you are inherently paying for them elsewhere.

They might be trash but again, barring the obvious cost in points they are essentially "free" as they are an "elite" type unit that doesn't take one of 3 valuable slots and by just varying your army list up somewhat can tailor them how you want them.

They look like the second coming of Vanguard Vets to me.

Gornall wrote:They look like the second coming of Vanguard Vets to me.

More or less, but rather than Vanguard's Heroic Intervention being a one-shot only if DSing, the DC rules are continuous: Sv2+, FNP, Rage, FC are always active; Frenzy Fury is usually active as well.

IMO, DC are categorically superior to Vanguard for the points, due to the greater overall utility and survivability. One Battlecannon shot wipes the Vanguard, but the DC shrug it like Termies.

This makes sense, because SM are fundamentally a shooty mech army, so overpay (by a lot) for their JPs. BA are an assault army, so their assault elites like DC are expensive but good.

Yeah, they will be better than VGVs for sure. VGVs actually aren't horrible if you resist the urge to spend too much on them. I think DC will be similar... if you don't overspend on them they can be built into a solid unit.

I for one will miss rending, getting a 2+ save but losing rending? They just got a whole lot less scary in assault imho.

BA are an assault army, so their assault elites like DC are expensive but good.

That 28 points pre-jump pack/power weapon purchases is very cheap yes. Get them a Rhino and only one power fist for the entire squad and no other weapons and they still cost 340 points overall and are nothing but a non-scoring FNP+FC squad of Grey Hunters for double the money. They don't sound like a competitive unit.

So what about the Tantalus? Let's talk about that some more. A transport you're supposed to buy for models you already bought jump packs for?

Neconilis wrote:I for one will miss rending, getting a 2+ save but losing rending? They just got a whole lot less scary in assault imho.

Sv2+ is quite good, considering how much AP3 is usually out there. And Rending isn't reliable. The big thing is that they can buy PWs and PFs if you take HG. Perpetually FC PWs and PFs are very solid.
____

Therion wrote:That 28 points pre-jump pack/power weapon purchases is very cheap yes. Get them a Rhino and only one power fist for the entire squad and no other weapons and they still cost 340 points overall and are nothing but a non-scoring FNP+FC squad of Grey Hunters for double the money. They don't sound like a competitive unit.

In the PDF BA, a DC model costs 40 pts (the premium BA pay over regular SM), so those same 10 DC would cost 400 pts. For the same 400 pts, new BA would have 3 PFs, 3 PWs, and 4 CCWs. That's a much better loadout than 10 Rending.
____

BTW, it's looking like the BA DC build (assuming you're going to take one) is starting to build itself:
- HQ = Chaplain
- Elite = DC, HG (for DC PWs)
- Troops = 2+ AM / Tacs
- Heavy = 1 Devs (for 6..10 DC)
That's a pretty decent commitment of the FOC. The only real question is whether the DC army has Transport or JPs.

The only thing I can not understand is why the DC size would be tied to Devs. Or is it GW wanting to sell more models. Right now I don't take any, I either run 2-3 Baals or Landraiders.

Guess if I want a large DC, I could run a 5-man Dev squad with no heavy weapons.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Neconilis wrote:I for one will miss rending, getting a 2+ save but losing rending? They just got a whole lot less scary in assault imho.

Sv2+ is quite good, considering how much AP3 is usually out there. And Rending isn't reliable. The big thing is that they can buy PWs and PFs if you take HG. Perpetually FC PWs and PFs are very solid.
____

Therion wrote:That 28 points pre-jump pack/power weapon purchases is very cheap yes. Get them a Rhino and only one power fist for the entire squad and no other weapons and they still cost 340 points overall and are nothing but a non-scoring FNP+FC squad of Grey Hunters for double the money. They don't sound like a competitive unit.

In the PDF BA, a DC model costs 40 pts (the premium BA pay over regular SM), so those same 10 DC would cost 400 pts. For the same 400 pts, new BA would have 3 PFs, 3 PWs, and 4 CCWs. That's a much better loadout than 10 Rending.
____

BTW, it's looking like the BA DC build (assuming you're going to take one) is starting to build itself:
- HQ = Chaplain
- Elite = DC, HG (for DC PWs)
- Troops = 2+ AM / Tacs
- Heavy = 1 Devs (for 6..10 DC)
That's a pretty decent commitment of the FOC. The only real question is whether the DC army has Transport or JPs.

Wait, I was under the impression that you got some of them for "free" in the current 'dex.

Like if you had 2 tac squads, an assault squad, and an honor guard, you got 4 for 'free'.

Free =/= free. Everything is like 5pts more or so PER model over vanilla marines. I believe Tacticals work out to like 18-20pts PER Marine.

That is the problem I have with the current DC. Even if you don't want them you are still paying for the first 5 in essance. That and Rending is not reliable and far worst than PW/PF's/LC's.

Fateweaver wrote:Free =/= free. Everything is like 5pts more or so PER model over vanilla marines. I believe Tacticals work out to like 18-20pts PER Marine.

That is the problem I have with the current DC. Even if you don't want them you are still paying for the first 5 in essance. That and Rending is not reliable and far worst than PW/PF's/LC's.

hence the quotation marks

But they sound overpriced, especially once factoring in 'unlocking' the full squad.

They should have options at a massive discount if I have to pay to unlock them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red__Thirst wrote:

I actually have a point I'll bring up as to why they're giving Death Company 2+ saves.

It isn't because they are wearing artificer armor. They're wearing their normal power armor. However, they're so blood-frenzied/stuck in the delusion that they're actually Sanguinius while gripped by the Black Rage that shots that would normally give them pause or at least stagger them back don't even phase them. They don't even feel the odd lasgun shot that happens to punch a hole in their power armor to scorch the flesh underneath, or that autocannon shot that blasts a hole through their lower abdomen. This may be GW's way of representing death company taking more hits and wading through gunfire as they are known to do in the fluff. Of course FNP is also appropriate. Marine gets his arm blown off at the elbow. He doesn't even realize it's gone.

That is almost always described as an invuln save though.

Ostrakon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:In the PDF BA, a DC model costs 40 pts (the premium BA pay over regular SM),

Wait, I was under the impression that you got some of them for "free" in the current 'dex.

Like if you had 2 tac squads, an assault squad, and an honor guard, you got 4 for 'free'.

Compare the cost of 5 BA AM (with 1 "free" DC) against the cost of 5 SM AM. The difference (adding 1 DC) is 40 pts last I checked, so the DC guy was costed in at 40 pts. If the DC model really were free, then the BA AM and SM AM would cost the same.