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I'll take a 2+ save and then a 4+ FNP against AP3 weps any day

That talk is all fine and dandy and then reality hits and you're getting lashed into multiple plasma cannon templates and getting rapid fired by plasma gun veterans doing drive-bys etc etc. A 5+ invulnerable would be a lot better than the FNP and it's very questionable if the unit would be any good even then.

Therion wrote:

I'll take a 2+ save and then a 4+ FNP against AP3 weps any day

That talk is all fine and dandy and then reality hits and you're getting lashed into multiple plasma cannon templates and getting rapid fired by plasma gun veterans doing drive-bys etc etc. A 5+ invulnerable would be a lot better than the FNP and it's very questionable if the unit would be any good even then.

. . . what unit does hold up to plasma cannons / pg drive bys? I'd love to know so I can buy some.

I mean, I wish DC were W2 T5 2+/3++ A5 I7 FNP, Rending, MC, FC, PW for 5pt/model, "I win" buttons but I think you are expecting a bit too much for the pts, and being kind of negative here.

Therion wrote:

Why the hell are you letting a unit that can move 12" per turn get charged by something assaulty/choppy?

a) Because Nob Bikers, units in Land Raiders and Thunderwolves are all faster than the Death Company. The DC can't survive.
b) Because once you kill a unit thrown right at you you're facing an inevitable counter either by shooting or assault. The DC can't survive.

Nob Bikers are soooooooooo balanced too, aren't they?

Not to mention with Fists those DC are killing 1 Nob PER wound. Only the PK's in that squad are going to worry the DC. The rest of the attacks will more or less bounce off.

If they WIN they are I5, S5. Orks, other than nobs, have nothing else that will scare DC that much. Throw 30 orks at them in a counter-assault and you might kill them but you'll lose a lot of your Orks in the process. So a counter-assault, UNLESS it's with a 2nd nob biker squad, is not going to amount to much pain. Lootas will throw out lots of shots but assuming the max of 15 lootas getting the max # of shots that is going to amount to 1 dead DC marine.

They COULD end up being the lame duck in the codex but let's wait until we get a leaked .pdf or the actual codex before writing DC off.

The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.

Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.

OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.

apwill4765 wrote:

Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.

OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.

Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.

Ass. Terminators are easily handled by Tyrant and 2-3 guard now.

apwill4765 wrote:

Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.

OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.

Assault Terminators hold up a lot better than the DC do because not only are they cheaper but they actually get saves, so that one is obvious. Nobz have tons of wounds, invulnerable saves, and wound allocation meaning a drive-by won't cripple the unit before it can get stuck in where it really hurts. Complicated Thunderwolves with two or three shields still costs under 400 points for 10 T5 wounds that get wound allocation and saves. Plasma Guns are always going to cause damage, but the entire DC might disappear to a single Veteran squad, while the other units that I mentioned will suffer no casualties at all (Terminators lose 1 model).

Ass. Terminators are easily handled by Tyrant and 2-3 guard now.

Easily? I can't see any reason why a Tyrant and its Guard would be particularly good against units that strike last anyway but get good saves, unlike say the Death Company who can't do anything to that squad you mentioned before it gets crippled.

MinMax wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.

OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.

Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.

*Facepalm* throw an ass. unit into a LR and of course it's durable

Cover saves apply universally; I'm talking unit in a vacuum, not who gets cover saves

If DC are anything like they are this edition, stick them behind some rhinos and they are a game changing unit. With appropriate moving cover when they hit a line it breaks. This is my experience playing against my friend who is a BA veteran player.

apwill4765 wrote:

MinMax wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.

OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.

Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.

*Facepalm* throw an ass. unit into a LR and of course it's durable

Cover saves apply universally; I'm talking unit in a vacuum, not who gets cover saves

If DC are anything like they are this edition, stick them behind some rhinos and they are a game changing unit. With appropriate moving cover when they hit a line it breaks. This is my experience playing against my friend who is a BA veteran player.

Well, I'll have to give him Seer council, but that's just what they're good at. In any case it should be easy to hide them behind a command razorback or something.

I sincerely doubt Death Company would have artificer armor. It doesn't feel right to have non-Terminator infantry in a Marine army with 2+ armor. On top of that, aren't Death Company sent to battle solely so they can die and redeem themselves? I doubt they'd be given the best armor in the chapter for that. Not having frags seems like a strange omission as well. I like that taking different units in your army gives them different abilities though. It's cool having that kind of synergy in your army, even if it's forced.

apwill4765 wrote:

MinMax wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.

OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.

Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.

*Facepalm* throw an ass. unit into a LR and of course it's durable

Cover saves apply universally; I'm talking unit in a vacuum, not who gets cover saves

If DC are anything like they are this edition, stick them behind some rhinos and they are a game changing unit. With appropriate moving cover when they hit a line it breaks. This is my experience playing against my friend who is a BA veteran player.

The only cover saves I included are self-generated, either by turbo-boosting or simply by virtue of being an Ork bike unit.

The problem with Death Company, the way I see it, is that they gained a bit of defensive capability but lost a lot of offensive capability. This, coupled with the fact that you are no longer shoe-horned into fielding Death Company, and the fact that a lot of their options rely on other, oddly selected units (Devastators) means that DC aren't going to be seen in competitive lists.

That's my take on it, according to these rumours. I'll leave my final judgment until I actually see the Codex.

Force enough saves on a unit they die no matter what they are wearing.

Against Tyrant they get 3+ but it's still a 33% chance to fail. Paroxysm is not nice to Terminators. They need 5's to hit in melee instead of 4's.

I've seen FRFSRF from lasguns take down 6 TH/SS terminators and those are 2+ saves.

The limitation to 0-1 would mean that at most the Chapter is sacrificing 10 suits of armor (not to mention not all DC fail their mission and die I would assume). HG can have artificer armor and you can have up to 30 if you take Calgar. They are designed to break stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MinMax wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

MinMax wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Therion wrote:The assault units that people actually use hold up very well for the points. The DC however, don't. Unless you want to send them out there without any means to cause damage, they're a 400 point unit with 8 wounds and no invulnerable saves. That pretty much adds up to the most fragile unit in the entire game for the price.

OK, which ones? Specifically against plasma cannon / gun spam.

Nob Bikers: 3+ or 4+ cover, 2 wounds apiece.
Seer Council: 3+ re-rollable cover, or 4+ re-rollable invulnerable save.
Assault Terminators: 3+ invulnerable save, Land Raider protection.

*Facepalm* throw an ass. unit into a LR and of course it's durable

Cover saves apply universally; I'm talking unit in a vacuum, not who gets cover saves

If DC are anything like they are this edition, stick them behind some rhinos and they are a game changing unit. With appropriate moving cover when they hit a line it breaks. This is my experience playing against my friend who is a BA veteran player.

The only cover saves I included are self-generated, either by turbo-boosting or simply by virtue of being an Ork bike unit.

The problem with Death Company, the way I see it, is that they gained a bit of defensive capability but lost a lot of offensive capability. This, coupled with the fact that you are no longer shoe-horned into fielding Death Company, and the fact that a lot of their options rely on other, oddly selected units (Devastators) means that DC aren't going to be seen in competitive lists.

That's my take on it, according to these rumours. I'll leave my final judgment until I actually see the Codex.

Thank God not everyone plays tournaments and how dare GW make units that won't work in tournaments? I think all codeciies for Marines should just be an entry for Vulkan, Terminators should ONLY be allowed TH/SS and the only HS choice should be LRC's and the only specials that should be availabe are melta, flamers and plasmaguns.

I'll be okay with the devastator requirement so long as they get access to the reasonably priced heavy weapons that long fangs have...

Jack

I don't know why the hate on Devs.

LC Devs are overpriced but HB's and ML's are a very good buy IMO.

I'd rather face an extra LR with my Nids than a 2nd 10man ML Dev Squad.

Guys, can we ratchet DOWN the drama in here?

Please, continue to debate the merits of a codex that isn't out yet but leave out the gratuitous 'face palms' and thinly veiled insults.

OK?

Fateweaver wrote:Rending on DC is lame. A friend plays BA's and he thought it was lame a marine could rip open a LR with his bare hands. We know a Marine has the strength of 10 humans but a marine ripping a LR apart with his bare hands is the lamest of the lame.

I hit a vehicle. I roll 6 for armour penetration. Then I roll the maximum 3 for rending. Combined with the FC str 5 I get a 14. I can't rip the LR apart. I can only jam its tracks, lop off a turret or scare its crew. How do you do it?

EDIT: Oddly, the last 10 posts didn't display when I wrote this. Sorry for being late!

Kveldulv wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Rending on DC is lame. A friend plays BA's and he thought it was lame a marine could rip open a LR with his bare hands. We know a Marine has the strength of 10 humans but a marine ripping a LR apart with his bare hands is the lamest of the lame.

I hit a vehicle. I roll 6 for armour penetration. Then I roll the maximum 3 for rending. Combined with the FC str 5 I get a 14. I can't rip the LR apart. I can only jam its tracks, lop off a turret or scare its crew. How do you do it?

EDIT: Oddly, the last 10 posts didn't display when I wrote this. Sorry for being late!

See by bare hands he actually meant power-fisted hands. Common mistake.

But on topic, will the sanguinary be able to get power weapons at all? (Sorry if I missed that they can, can't seem to recall it though.)

I'm sure a Marine isn't going to grab a LR track and halt it from moving.

How would you explain a Rhino than? No novel or fluff I've ever read had a SM ripping off a Rhino's top hatch, grabbing the tracks of the rhino and ripping them off or ripping off the hull mounted gun from a chimera, or ripping it's turret off.

Rending on 9ft human who don't have mono-molecular thin claws (such as Nids and Daemons) is lame.

Though in the .pdf codex DC are a joke anyway as is the entirety of the BA .pdf.

Fateweaver wrote:I'm sure a Marine isn't going to grab a LR track and halt it from moving.

How would you explain a Rhino than? No novel or fluff I've ever read had a SM ripping off a Rhino's top hatch, grabbing the tracks of the rhino and ripping them off or ripping off the hull mounted gun from a chimera, or ripping it's turret off.

Rending on 9ft human who don't have mono-molecular thin claws (such as Nids and Daemons) is lame.

Though in the .pdf codex DC are a joke anyway as is the entirety of the BA .pdf.

My BA playing friend is dreading the new codex, because he is afraid it will break his list lol. The .pdf is definitely not a joke, and with Dante / Corbulo given DC preferred enemy and -ws to enemies and one wound ignored per round, they are freaking ridiculous in assault given that they get the charge.

Expensive combo and to use an example earlier "IG artillery would have a field day with that unit".

Fateweaver wrote:Expensive combo and to use an example earlier "IG artillery would have a field day with that unit".

Well, Dante has his honour guard and corbulo is in a rhino, exposing only the DC, who get cover from the rhino. And unfortunately, I run mech vet without any Artillery, and if I am editing my list to deal with one unit. . . then the DC are a little more scary than they are given credit for, eh? The cool thing about the synergy between corbulo, dante, and BA soldiers in general is that they only need to be in proximity for most of the benefits of the SCs to apply. 530 pts is no little investment, but it still leaves plenty of room for 2 dreads, 3 mm bikes, MSU assault squads in rhinos, Dante's honor guard, and 3 Baal predators .

EDIT: bottom line is, it's a nasty list, and I wouldn't discount it; you will lose if you do.

The size, points and availability of these landers is the critical element here.

blood angel wrote:The size, points and availability of these landers is the critical element here.

Also, whether or not they can scout / outflank, and if they are definitely assault vehicles, and if they can carry jump-pack models. But yea, I get what you mean.

Kirasu wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.

Necrons should be Fearless.

You misspelled the word Stubborn

You misspelled the word "Squatted".

If you can take five Death Company Marines with weapons that ignore armor saves plus FC & FNP & 2+ armor saves they are going to be extremely broken. Personally I doubt they will get artificier armors as they are a bunch of madmen. The background would have to be significantly retconned to justify this buff. The 2+ means they will shred all the meta net SW lists running gads of ML toting Long Fangs built to beat the new 3+ Nid MCs... That would be quite the twist.

G

G

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kirasu wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.

Necrons should be Fearless.

You misspelled the word Stubborn

You misspelled the word "Squatted".

Spoiler:

actually, I'm OK with space robots

They get mentioned far too often in the fluff to be squatted. Many players hate them (although this seems to be more because of neglect on GW's part) but authors seem to love them. Hell, they even upstaged 'nids in their own codex.

I mostly always used a big squad of DC in every game. I loved the sheer danger factor, whether people let them rip their guys apart, or pulled "oh snap" maneuvers to get rid of them. Losing rending isnt a big deal if you can buy them assault weapons, the bigger issue is having to take a dev squad for more of them. If that's true I'll just have to change how I play them, and use a smaller unit.

Fateweaver wrote:I've seen FRFSRF from lasguns take down 6 TH/SS terminators and those are 2+ saves.

That's an anecdote and as such, not useful in this or any other statistics-driven conversation.

Fateweaver wrote:Rending on 9ft human who don't have mono-molecular thin claws (such as Nids and Daemons) is lame.

Tell that to my Penal Legion made up of 5ft guys in leg irons and jumpsuits.

Fateweaver wrote:ML's ignore their FNP but with AP3 the DC 2+ save makes them as resilient as terminators.

Missile launchers don't ignore FNP, FNP is only cancelled out by AP2 or better ranged attacks.