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I'll reiterate: the "Mephiston + LR + 5 Terminators" thing costs 750 points at minimum. It's scary, but uses so much of the army that it's not *that* scary.

Not sure. Shrike allows a squad to fleet. It's possible to get first turn charge with Shrike and 7 Terminators out of an LRC.

18" on a road, 2" disembark, 6" fleet, 6" assault. 32" (26" if not on a road). Most games have you starting 24" apart (pitched battle has 24" apart on a 4x6 table, same goes for table quarters where neither player can be closer than 12" to the center. Dawn of War says you must be more than 18" away. 24" or 24" or 18" is still less than 26").

Yet I've never seen a Marine army with that setup in it.

Not to mention with the rumored 325 price tag for Meph + 260 average for an LRC that is damn near 600pts WITHOUT including a squad to support him. I doubt we'll see a Meph/Terminator/LRC bomb at 1500 or even 1850. Maybe at 2500, just depends on what everything else in the codex costs.

Rules for Beasts/Cavalry specifically say that those units have Fleet in the appropriate section.

I for one would think Mephiston leading a squad of death company flying out of a land raider redeemer would be 'verrah verrah scarrah' looking.

Probably very expensive, on par with the terminator/Mephiston example Fetterkey just gave.. but man.. I for one would love to see it.

Just my thoughts, take it easy.

-RT-

I'd do it in an Apoc game where I might have 8k plus points to mess around with.

Oh man yea, watching that hit an ork green tide formation.. The sheer unadulterated carnage that would occur makes me almost giddy. Sure they'd die like dogs eventually, but I can see a good chunk of those ork boyz being taken down like wheat before a scythe before the squad is finally swamped and attritioned down.

I'm going to have to plan that for a future apoc game when my buddy brings his orks...

Good times, good times.

-RT-

Fateweaver wrote:Not sure. Shrike allows a squad to fleet. It's possible to get first turn charge with Shrike and 7 Terminators out of an LRC.

18" on a road, 2" disembark, 6" fleet, 6" assault. 32" (26" if not on a road). Most games have you starting 24" apart (pitched battle has 24" apart on a 4x6 table, same goes for table quarters where neither player can be closer than 12" to the center. Dawn of War says you must be more than 18" away. 24" or 24" or 18" is still less than 26").

Yet I've never seen a Marine army with that setup in it.

Not to mention with the rumored 325 price tag for Meph + 260 average for an LRC that is damn near 600pts WITHOUT including a squad to support him. I doubt we'll see a Meph/Terminator/LRC bomb at 1500 or even 1850. Maybe at 2500, just depends on what everything else in the codex costs.

Rules for Beasts/Cavalry specifically say that those units have Fleet in the appropriate section.

Jump pack troops can not ride in transports that is why there is the option to change the jump packs for a rhino in the codex and you can not remove Shrike's jump pack

Ever since 5th took away the ability to consolidate into another combat, these things just aren't as scary anymore...

Alpharius wrote:Ever since 5th took away the ability to consolidate into another combat, these things just aren't as scary anymore...

But with Mephiston's rumored ability of casting a free psychic power that ignores psychic hoods is what make it cake.

Even without first turn, being able to tank shock/ram that far into the heart of the enemy and charge whatever you want is still pretty amazing.

I mean, I guess it's because we all know what a LR can and can't do and we don't know much about the Tantalus, but I'm surprised no one's talking about Mephiston + Choppy Squad of Choice + Tantalus. We've been told that the BA army will be all about speed. Seems to me that, in general, BA are going to be all about Alpha Strike capability.

sonofruss wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Not sure. Shrike allows a squad to fleet. It's possible to get first turn charge with Shrike and 7 Terminators out of an LRC.

18" on a road, 2" disembark, 6" fleet, 6" assault. 32" (26" if not on a road). Most games have you starting 24" apart (pitched battle has 24" apart on a 4x6 table, same goes for table quarters where neither player can be closer than 12" to the center. Dawn of War says you must be more than 18" away. 24" or 24" or 18" is still less than 26").

Yet I've never seen a Marine army with that setup in it.

Not to mention with the rumored 325 price tag for Meph + 260 average for an LRC that is damn near 600pts WITHOUT including a squad to support him. I doubt we'll see a Meph/Terminator/LRC bomb at 1500 or even 1850. Maybe at 2500, just depends on what everything else in the codex costs.

Rules for Beasts/Cavalry specifically say that those units have Fleet in the appropriate section.

Jump pack troops can not ride in transports that is why there is the option to change the jump packs for a rhino in the codex and you can not remove Shrike's jump pack

True about Shrike but he still grants the entire army Fleet so that is still doable even without Shrike in the Squad.

Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.

Necrons should be Fearless.

Ostrakon wrote:Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.

Necrons should be Fearless.

You misspelled the word Stubborn

Kirasu wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Ugh, I'm getting owned badly enough by second turn charges as it is.

Necrons should be Fearless.

You misspelled the word Stubborn

Heh, either one would be fine with me.

More info about DC and SP.

News from www.40kings.de on Death Company and Sanguinary Priests:

Death Company:

FOC: Elites (don't occupy a slot), unique

Cost: Somewhere around 25p per model

Size: 5 DC Marines

Profile: Regular marine profile, with more attacks

Equipment: CCW/Boltpistol, Artificer Armor, no Granades

Special Rules: ASKNF, FNP, FC, Fearless, Black Rage

Black Rage: Rage as per rulebook + constantly count as attacking for furious charge (until they lose combat).

Additional rules:

- If 2 or more Tactical Squads are in the list the DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander as transport.

- If 1 or more Assault Squads are in the list the DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) Points per model.

- If 1 or more Devastator Squads are in the list the DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.

- If 1 or more Honor Guard Squads are in the list the DC may buy Powerweapons, Powerfists and Powerclaws (for the usual prices).

- An Chaplain in 6" of the DC makes the lose Black Rage and gain Red Fury.


Sanguinius Priest:

Cost: Similar to an Obliterator

Profile: As a chaplain

FOC: HQ

Equipment: Power Armor, CCW/Boltpistol, Krak-/Fraggranades, Exsanguinator
(can buy Red Grail (around 30p), terminator armor, bike, jumppack, etc.)

Special Rules: ATSKNF, FC, Red Fury

Exsanguinator: Marines in 12" can ignore Red Fury OR Marines in 12" can take Red Fury test with 3D6; if they fail they gain prefered enemy for the rest of the players turn. Units that have 'rage' automaticly get prefered enemy.

Red Grail: Gives Sanguinius Priest and his squad FNP

Maybe I'm slow to understanding what the deal is supposed to be, but 25 point Marines that have nothing but normal close combat attacks and a 2+ armour save and FNP that both get ignored by the very guns that are used to kill Marines in the first place?

One thing I find curious is that they may choose any of the transports, including the Tantalus. What is the Tantalus even actually? Is it some AV10 Dark Eldar Raider worth 50 points or under just like the rest of the SM transport options?

@fatweaver. According to bolter and chainsword which had the same source as you, the DC cc weapon upgrades also become available if 1 or more normal or assault terminator squad are purchased.

Therion wrote:Maybe I'm slow to understanding what the deal is supposed to be, but 25 point Marines that have nothing but normal close combat attacks and a 2+ armour save and FNP that both get ignored by the very guns that are used to kill Marines in the first place?

One thing I find curious is that they may choose any of the transports, including the Tantalus. What is the Tantalus even actually? Is it some AV10 Dark Eldar Raider worth 50 points or under just like the rest of the SM transport options?

Normal marines are what? 16/model? so for 9 pt/model you get:

More attacks
No slot consumption
2+ save (silly ap3 guard weps)
FNP
Furious Charge that lasts through the charge

sounds like a deal. . .

I missed the DC getting a 2+ save bit!

Still, with jump packs, that's a lot of points...

Fateweaver wrote:If 2 or more Tactical Squads are in the list the DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander as transport.

- If 1 or more Assault Squads are in the list the DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) Points per model.

- If 1 or more Devastator Squads are in the list the DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.

- If 1 or more Honor Guard Squads are in the list the DC may buy Powerweapons, Powerfists and Powerclaws (for the usual prices).

This seems sort of silly, fluff-wise.

"These Death Company shall be armed with Power Weapons, in order that they mighty bring down a great score of enemies before their final rest... Oh, wait. We didn't bring any Honour Guard (or Terminators, as the case may be). Shoot, well, forget THAT idea. No Devastators either? Man. Guess we're stuck with just five of them!"

My guess is, fluff-wise, that since the DC are drawn from the company's ranks, that a company with honor guard is more likely to have marines w/ power weapons succomb to the black rage and join the DC.

That part makes sense. . . Dev = more DC doesn't so much . . .

More attacks
No slot consumption
2+ save (silly ap3 guard weps)
FNP
Furious Charge that lasts through the charge

sounds like a deal. . .

For 35 points you mean once you equip them with jump packs. I'm not sure it's a deal at all. Assault Terminators cost 40 points and can fleet with the right commander or get master crafted weapons, have 2+ saves, 3+ invulnerables and actually cause some damage on the charge with their hammers instead of desperately clawing with crappy non-rending non-power weapon attacks. Ok let's equip the DC with power weapons for 10 or 15 points per model. Now you have 50 point jump packers that don't get any saves at all against all real anti-marine guns. This is awesome. Do you know TWC cost 50 points per model and have twice the attacks and W2 T5? I also completely and utterly hate the way you have to pick units you don't want simply to get options for a unit you do want. The Honour Guard is one of the units I can almost guarantee to be a waste of points. They probably pay extra 10 points per model for one attack and one LD and have options for overpriced power weapons. Why do Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers need Devastators in their armies to be able to field a reasonably sized DC? I simply can't figure that one out either.

All we know about the 'Exalted' fast attack jump packer unit is that they're also some 30+ point jump packers that die in droves to the exact same guns that kill Tactical Marines in droves. It's cool that your jump packers have hit and run which they're never be able to use when the IG army sitting on the other side of the table opens up with the 68 heavy/special weapons.

More rumours please. This codex sounds like a huge flop, but it's not surprising since everyone knows that unless serious steps are taken SM assault armies, especially ones with jump packs, are simply not viable.

apwill4765 wrote:My guess is, fluff-wise, that since the DC are drawn from the company's ranks, that a company with honor guard is more likely to have marines w/ power weapons succomb to the black rage and join the DC.

That part makes sense. . . Dev = more DC doesn't so much . . .

It makes perfect sense because devastators are basically useless in most Sm armies.. Might as well throw them into the death company so you get SOME use out of them!

Therion wrote:

More attacks
No slot consumption
2+ save (silly ap3 guard weps)
FNP
Furious Charge that lasts through the charge

sounds like a deal. . .

For 35 points you mean once you equip them with jump packs. I'm not sure it's a deal at all. Assault Terminators cost 40 points and can fleet with the right commander or get master crafted weapons, have 2+ saves, 3+ invulnerables and actually cause some damage on the charge with their hammers instead of desperately clawing with crappy non-rending non-power weapon attacks. Ok let's equip the DC with power weapons for 10 or 15 points per model. Now you have 50 point jump packers that don't get any saves at all against all real anti-marine guns. This is awesome. Do you know TWC cost 50 points per model and have twice the attacks and W2 T5? I also completely and utterly hate the way you have to pick units you don't want simply to get options for a unit you do want. The Honour Guard is one of the units I can almost guarantee to be a waste of points. They probably pay extra 10 points per model for one attack and one LD and have options for overpriced power weapons. Why do Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers need Devastators in their armies to be able to field a reasonably sized DC? I simply can't figure that one out either.

All we know about the 'Exalted' fast attack jump packer unit is that they're also some 30+ point jump packers that die in droves to the exact same guns that kill Tactical Marines in droves. It's cool that your jump packers have hit and run which they're never be able to use when the IG army sitting on the other side of the table opens up with the 68 heavy/special weapons.

More rumours please. This codex sounds like a huge flop, but it's not surprising since everyone knows that unless serious steps are taken SM assault armies, especially ones with jump packs, are simply not viable.

Well, I'm glad we could write this codex off months before it comes out. That was a close one, I almost pre-ordered one!

40 attacks at str 5 init 5 is devastating, and trust me, they will "do some damage" on the charge.

EDIT: Didn't see that their attacks will be non-rending in the new dex. I don't like to see this. Trading rending for artificer armor is indeed lame.

FNP goes a long way to mitigating AP3 weapons (except crack missles and plasma which not every army has access to in vast quantities).

DC will annoy the hell out of Nids, Orks, and Eldar (only morons take the overcosted Star Cannon) who normally have very little in the way of anti-MEQ at range.

DC won't use a slot; we don't know what options or what BA terminators will cost and with only 3 elite slots open it'll be nice to have the option to take DC without starving yourself anywhere else.

Glad to see you are judging a codex based on "rumors" and not on the gloss covered copy complete with full rules and points.

45 per with power weapons for lets say 4 attacks on the charge (RAS has 3 on the charge), I5, S5, as long as they keep winning combats they ALWAYS count as having the FC bonus so if they win the initial charge round but don't break or wipe their opponent they STILL get the FC bonus so in round 2 they are still S5 I5. 5 of them would then have 20 attacks, 10 hits, 7 dead due to PW's (or 6 dead PF/SB terminators). Yeah it seems high but we don't know the cost of RAS or HS or EAS.

Sure vanilla terminators can get Fleet if you take a 160pt Shrike but maybe if a person is playing BA for, maybe perhaps the background and imagery and not just the newest and most powerful set of rules than they won't miss the fact that you can spend 160pts, use up one of your HQ slots, to get Fleeting Terminators.

Glad to see the rumors starting to weed out the potential bandwagoners.

40 rending attacks at str 5 init 5 is devastating, and trust me, they will "do some damage" on the charge.

They lost rending.

What exactly is this unit for? They can't fight against any dedicated close combat units since they don't have invulnerable saves of any kind and are both very expensive and few in number. 50 points for 4 S5 I5 power weapon attacks on the charge? That's choppy?

They will never survive retribution by shooting at close ranges once they've assaulted and killed a shooty unit. Just imagining these guys trying to open up Chimeras or Rhinos and getting shot to bitz is entertaining. They would need invulnerable saves and/or tons of wounds that you have to allocate all over the unit. Do you not understand that unlike all the other hardcore close combat units in 40K currently, the entire Death Company will die when one badass model with any kind of power weapon swings, not to mention a whole squad of them swinging.

They're glass cannons, and by cannons I mean BB guns. I guess there's some crutch yet to be revealed, like Tantalus costing 50 points and being an AV10 fast vehicle with an assault ramp for jump packers. Then GW doesn't have to remake Dark Eldar since the BA just take their role.

FNP goes a long way to mitigating AP3 weapons

What exactly? They die in droves to basically every heavy weapon/special weapon in the Space Marine / Imperial Guard arsenal, and you're going to meet a lot of both at every tournament. Space Wolves bring the cool 20 missile launchers, 6 lascannons and 6 TL plasma guns, and IG bring twice that and some 'exotic' weapons like earthshakers and battlecannons that will also do the job nicely.

Therion wrote:

More attacks
No slot consumption
2+ save (silly ap3 guard weps)
FNP
Furious Charge that lasts through the charge

sounds like a deal. . .

For 35 points you mean once you equip them with jump packs. I'm not sure it's a deal at all. Assault Terminators cost 40 points and can fleet with the right commander or get master crafted weapons, have 2+ saves, 3+ invulnerables and actually cause some damage on the charge with their hammers instead of desperately clawing with crappy non-rending non-power weapon attacks. Ok let's equip the DC with power weapons for 10 or 15 points per model. Now you have 50 point jump packers that don't get any saves at all against all real anti-marine guns. This is awesome. Do you know TWC cost 50 points per model and have twice the attacks and W2 T5? I also completely and utterly hate the way you have to pick units you don't want simply to get options for a unit you do want. The Honour Guard is one of the units I can almost guarantee to be a waste of points. They probably pay extra 10 points per model for one attack and one LD and have options for overpriced power weapons. Why do Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers need Devastators in their armies to be able to field a reasonably sized DC? I simply can't figure that one out either.

All we know about the 'Exalted' fast attack jump packer unit is that they're also some 30+ point jump packers that die in droves to the exact same guns that kill Tactical Marines in droves. It's cool that your jump packers have hit and run which they're never be able to use when the IG army sitting on the other side of the table opens up with the 68 heavy/special weapons.

More rumours please. This codex sounds like a huge flop, but it's not surprising since everyone knows that unless serious steps are taken SM assault armies, especially ones with jump packs, are simply not viable.

I dunno, I have the opposite opinion of this codex so far.

Termies that move 12 inches and can sweep sound pretty freakin' sweet to me. Then again, I'm not a tournament player so my opinion is probably pretty skewed.

Therion wrote:

40 rending attacks at str 5 init 5 is devastating, and trust me, they will "do some damage" on the charge.

They lost rending.

What exactly is this unit for? They can't fight against any dedicated close combat units since they don't have invulnerable saves of any kind and are both very expensive and few in number. 50 points for 4 S5 I5 power weapon attacks on the charge? That's choppy?

They will never survive retribution by shooting at close ranges once they've assaulted and killed a shooty unit. Just imagining these guys trying to open up Chimeras or Rhinos and getting shot to bitz is entertaining. They would need invulnerable saves and/or tons of wounds that you have to allocate all over the unit. Do you not understand that unlike all the other hardcore close combat units in 40K currently, the entire Death Company will die when one badass model with any kind of power weapon swings, not to mention a whole squad of them swinging.

They're glass cannons, and by cannons I mean BB guns. I guess there's some crutch yet to be revealed, like Tantalus costing 50 points and being an AV10 fast vehicle with an assault ramp for jump packers. Then GW doesn't have to remake Dark Eldar since the BA just take their role.

FNP goes a long way to mitigating AP3 weapons

What exactly? They die in droves to basically every heavy weapon/special weapon in the Space Marine / Imperial Guard arsenal, and you're going to meet a lot of both at every tournament. Space Wolves bring the cool 20 missile launchers, 6 lascannons and 6 TL plasma guns, and IG bring twice that and some 'exotic' weapons like earthshakers and battlecannons that will also do the job nicely.

Thank the gods I don't play in tournaments. Thank the gods that piecing everything together the BA are starting to sound like the army they should.

The rumor says "more attacks than RAS". What if they had 5 attacks on the charge? For 45-50pts they have JP's. Why the hell are you letting a unit that can move 12" per turn get charged by something assaulty/choppy? It's like MEQ players bitching because a Wraithlord that moves 6" per turn can assault a tac squad and with no fist the squad cannot do anything but die. If you let a big scary thing assault your guys that can move 12" per turn than L2play.

Rending on DC is lame. A friend plays BA's and he thought it was lame a marine could rip open a LR with his bare hands. We know a Marine has the strength of 10 humans but a marine ripping a LR apart with his bare hands is the lamest of the lame.

Hmm, that would be so frakking awesome if the SW player is shooting all 20 ML's at my 5 DC marines and not blowing my Rhinos and Furiosos off the table. I'd be ecstatic if instead of shooting my Furiosos, LR's full of BA Terminators and Devs with HB/ML's and my Baal Predators my IG opponent is shooting 40 ML's, 12 lascannons and 12 TL plasma guns at 5 guys with jump packs. Awesome.

With overcharged rhinos counting as fast I can move 18", be 6" from my opps lines and stop. If he ignores 4 or 5 Rhinos full of Tacticals sitting in his face to shoot 40 ML's at my 5 marines with backpacks than his IG squads will face the firing of 4 tac squads of one or 2 flamers and than getting assaulted.

With 2+ saves the only guns that really scare DC are las, plas and melta. ML's ignore their FNP but with AP3 the DC 2+ save makes them as resilient as terminators.

Why the hell are you letting a unit that can move 12" per turn get charged by something assaulty/choppy?

a) Because Nob Bikers, units in Land Raiders and Thunderwolves are all faster than the Death Company. The DC can't survive.
b) Because once you kill a unit thrown right at you you're facing an inevitable counter either by shooting or assault. The DC can't survive.

Therion wrote:
What exactly? They die in droves to basically every heavy weapon/special weapon in the Space Marine / Imperial Guard arsenal, and you're going to meet a lot of both at every tournament. Space Wolves bring the cool 20 missile launchers, 6 lascannons and 6 TL plasma guns, and IG bring twice that and some 'exotic' weapons like earthshakers and battlecannons that will also do the job nicely.

I'll take a 2+ save and then a 4+ FNP against AP3 weps any day, and no, battle cannons WON'T get the job done in that case. 1/12 of wounds caused by AP3 weapons actually get through new DC, or 1/6 in the case of battle cannons. So assuming you hit and wound all ten DC, 1 or 2 die on average w/ a battle cannon, and <1 on average with any ap3 weapons that are less than str 8.

I agree though that losing rending sucks