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The bloodletter swords are power weapons. thats a whole army of power weapons and invulnerable saves. Not trying to say hah! btw.

Way to many hearsay rumors right now, isnt it likely that GW will push out a fantasy army next before 40k?

I would expect a toning down of stats (WS 4, LD 8), with a slight point decrease (say 20pts). Weapon load out wont change I imagine. I forsee some more unit types but not to many based on fluff. I dont think there will be devastator type squads, but I could believe in jump pack squads. Unfortunatley, until something is genuinley leaked or released all we can do is spit and speculate back and forth.

Of course, what would the point of termis be besides TH/SS and 5+ invuns? would be almost better to spam 10 man GK troops.

Depends on if the rumor about NFW for terminators and above being actual force weapons.

Could you imagine wrecking a Nidzilla army to pieces with a terminator based GK army?

bforber wrote:

Of course, what would the point of termis be besides TH/SS and 5+ invuns? would be almost better to spam 10 man GK troops.

Depends on if the rumor about NFW for terminators and above being actual force weapons.

Could you imagine wrecking a Nidzilla army to pieces with a terminator based GK army?

I could imagine wrecking Nobz with all FW termis lol... But yeah, nids wouldn't even have a chance!

Plasma Cannons? In my Chaos army!? Never thought I'd consider those options.

So all the teleporting obliterator masses I keep seeing everywhere with plasmacannons or rerollable 6 shot squad plasmaguns were just a horrible dream you mean?
Who would have thought...

Father Gabe wrote:The bloodletter swords are power weapons. thats a whole army of power weapons and invulnerable saves. Not trying to say hah! btw.

and bloodletters are inherently weak because of the 5+ save.

I don't want GK to be rock-papers-sizzorsy, and I think power weapons would enforce how much they kick the crap out of MEQ's since MEQ generally relies on armor saves to some extent. I thought the 6str non-power close combat weapons were pretty fun and unique. I mean, if GW is going to make knights absurdly expensive and awesome, otherwise filling the list with guardsmen, I'm all for it, it would be pretty sweat to have 2nd-edition style grey knights where you are blowing character-levels of points per model but they can wade through waves of enemies with little difficulty.

Father Gabe wrote:I would expect a toning down of stats (WS 4, LD 8), with a slight point decrease (say 20pts).

Weapon load out wont change I imagine.

Chaos Cult Marines cost 20 to 23 points each for the base model, with Possessed weighing in at 26 points each. Noise Marines with their Noise guns are 25 points each. Chaos Cult Marines are uniformly Ld9 and get a +1 to stat (Sv for GKs), so stat-wise, a Grey Knight should look like this:

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv2+

Like their Chaos brethren, Grey Knights would be Fearless, have the Mark of the Emperor, and get a bonus USR tacked on top of things. If the Liber Daemonica is the Mark / Icon giving re-rolled armor saves, and the NFWs become Rending (or +1S) Power Weapons, then the GKs can come in at 25 or 26 points each like a full-kit Noise Marine or Possessed.

Then, one can look at the major options of upgrading from AA to TDA, or slapping a JP on the back.

boreas wrote:Well, if you look at the latest codice, fluff can easily be thrown out of the window anyways... GW has pulled the Sternguard, Vanguard, Thunderfire Cannon, Land Raider Redeemer, Hive guards, Doom of Malanthai, Sanguinary guard, Furioso Librarian and others from their magic fluff hat.

I suspect that lots of people will be irritated by the fluff changes in the next Codex: DH. Jump pack are not yet disproved, as are chaplains. Dreads might be more common (or they might be accompanied by a GK warwalker!?). GKs might all be psykers or it might be only the justicars....

Phil

That's not having fluff 'thrown out of the window,' though, that's expanding on it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Father Gabe wrote:I would expect a toning down of stats (WS 4, LD 8), with a slight point decrease (say 20pts).

Weapon load out wont change I imagine.

Chaos Cult Marines cost 20 to 23 points each for the base model, with Possessed weighing in at 26 points each. Noise Marines with their Noise guns are 25 points each. Chaos Cult Marines are uniformly Ld9 and get a +1 to stat (Sv for GKs), so stat-wise, a Grey Knight should look like this:

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv2+

Like their Chaos brethren, Grey Knights would be Fearless, have the Mark of the Emperor, and get a bonus USR tacked on top of things. If the Liber Daemonica is the Mark / Icon giving re-rolled armor saves, and the NFWs become Rending (or +1S) Power Weapons, then the GKs can come in at 25 or 26 points each like a full-kit Noise Marine or Possessed.

Then, one can look at the major options of upgrading from AA to TDA, or slapping a JP on the back.

You know they will probably make them cheaper than Cult Marines but make them slightly better. Weren't they WS5, with A2 thanks to true grit?

Chaos Cult Marines cost 20 to 23 points each for the base model, with Possessed weighing in at 26 points each. Noise Marines with their Noise guns are 25 points each. Chaos Cult Marines are uniformly Ld9 and get a +1 to stat (Sv for GKs), so stat-wise, a Grey Knight should look like this:

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv2+

Like their Chaos brethren, Grey Knights would be Fearless, have the Mark of the Emperor, and get a bonus USR tacked on top of things. If the Liber Daemonica is the Mark / Icon giving re-rolled armor saves, and the NFWs become Rending (or +1S) Power Weapons, then the GKs can come in at 25 or 26 points each like a full-kit Noise Marine or Possessed.

Its not that simple.
Chaos cult marine costs and thus GK cost will also be reflected on the armies other weaknesses and strenghts.
Chaos armies for example, have no problem dealing with armour whereas GKs have been given an inherited weakness against tanks, these things can dictate different point costs for troops no matter if the statlines are the same.

Say the GK army has significant more weakness against armour then a chaos one and/or other general drawbacks, maybe not so mobile etc etc and gain very strong and cheap GK troops to compensate this.

Kurgash wrote:

You know they will probably make them cheaper than Cult Marines but make them slightly better. Weren't they WS5, with A2 thanks to true grit?

Yeah, but I'm sure True Grit will be gone. Space Wolves used to have it, too. Whether or not they change their attack characteristic or not... I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if they do. Death Company, after all, get 4 attacks at WS 5 on the charge.

bforber wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

You know they will probably make them cheaper than Cult Marines but make them slightly better. Weren't they WS5, with A2 thanks to true grit?

Yeah, but I'm sure True Grit will be gone. Space Wolves used to have it, too. Whether or not they change their attack characteristic or not... I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if they do. Death Company, after all, get 4 attacks at WS 5 on the charge.

But come with furious charge and FNP base for 20 points a model... sure they have rage, but its a small setback.

I don't see a base GK coming with NFW tho. Fluffy or not we'd be talking like... 30 points or so a model

Why would they remove NFWs from PAGKs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah, Melissia, you missed the point completely. John was making a fairly simple comparison, and it went right over your head.

You and he still took this long to answer a simple question, so apparently such a simple question as "why should chaplains mean no psyker PAGKs" went over YOUR heads. RoC is irrelevant, because this is not RoC, this is a new codex. As you and he have STILL not stated a reason that does not somehow involve RoC, I suppose the answer is "there is no reason why".

This is not RoC, this is a new codex. Just because you do not desire having both a chaplain and psyker PAGK does not mean that it cannot be so. GW creates new fluff all the time with its new codices, in order to sell more models, so the creation of new fluff is a non-issue-- even if they don't necessarily vary that much, the simple inclusion of a GK Chaplain is hardly the kind of thing which would force them to re-write everything else in the codex to make it fit.

It'd be like if GW decided to reinforce the Sisters' connection with the Inquisition to the same level as the GK and Deathwatch have. It would annoy the hell out of me, but given third edition fluff such a retcon would not necessarily require a huge re-write of the codex and army list.

I honestly don't see them nerfing the str value of NFW, and if they do, I still think it will be +1 str like SW frost weapons.

If they get rerollable saves then FNP = lol.

Every 5th edition codex has had some fairly easy way to give a unit furious charge- I'm sure this will be no different.

Melissia wrote:Why would they remove NFWs from PAGKs?

Not saying they would, but this IS GW we're talking about. In order to sell the cool new GK models (and have people buy a lot) they'd have to lower the cost of GK's in the book. I mean, if each GK model is 30+ points a model, in most armies you might see 20-30 max with inducted guard filler.

Not saying they would remove them, but in order to balance stuff, make GK cheaper, thus selling more models, it seems more logical than "heres a 22 point guy with a 2+ save and a powerweapon! go win games, gogogoog!"

Of course, they could always surprise us (like they did with Mandrakes having bad ass models and crappy rules), keep them expensive, and lean toward selling more IG to make up for it lol.

Zid wrote:

bforber wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

You know they will probably make them cheaper than Cult Marines but make them slightly better. Weren't they WS5, with A2 thanks to true grit?

Yeah, but I'm sure True Grit will be gone. Space Wolves used to have it, too. Whether or not they change their attack characteristic or not... I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if they do. Death Company, after all, get 4 attacks at WS 5 on the charge.

But come with furious charge and FNP base for 20 points a model... sure they have rage, but its a small setback.

I don't see a base GK coming with NFW tho. Fluffy or not we'd be talking like... 30 points or so a model

Pretty concrete rumours (IE more than 1 source) have a baseline PAGK with a +2 STR Power weapon & Stormbolter. TAGK=+2ST FW+SB = Baseline model.

Just for my edification, what is RoC?

RoC = Realm of Chaos

wolfshadow wrote:

Zid wrote:

bforber wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

You know they will probably make them cheaper than Cult Marines but make them slightly better. Weren't they WS5, with A2 thanks to true grit?

Yeah, but I'm sure True Grit will be gone. Space Wolves used to have it, too. Whether or not they change their attack characteristic or not... I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if they do. Death Company, after all, get 4 attacks at WS 5 on the charge.

But come with furious charge and FNP base for 20 points a model... sure they have rage, but its a small setback.

I don't see a base GK coming with NFW tho. Fluffy or not we'd be talking like... 30 points or so a model

Pretty concrete rumours (IE more than 1 source) have a baseline PAGK with a +2 STR Power weapon & Stormbolter. TAGK=+2ST FW+SB = Baseline model.

Wow thats incredibly disgusting... so I'm thinking they're gonna lean more on Guard sales then lol. I honestly can't wait for GK, been looking to build a new army and GK have always interested me... but an all metals army doesn't sit well with me atm lol.

Well, at least I wouldn't have to buy anything, since i have about 6k of guard. bahaha.

I feel that the purpose of the GKs is to make up for the fact that the inquisition aspect of the codex probably won't have access to 9084350983409583409583405983405983405983 str 7+ ap low enough to kill anything like the guard do.

I'm a bit skeptical to think an entirely pure GK list will outshine a hybrid list of both GKs and -]I[- simply because of the versatility it will probably provide.

Zid wrote:
Wow thats incredibly disgusting... so I'm thinking they're gonna lean more on Guard sales then lol. I honestly can't wait for GK, been looking to build a new army and GK have always interested me... but an all metals army doesn't sit well with me atm lol.[i][u]

Uh, LOL.... Go back and read some more of the thread :-)

PLASTIC GKs bro.
People have seen them.

Plastic Termies, Plastic PAGK, Stormraven and a new 'Walker'.
Its not a matter if if, but when. (Jan Feb or march... with Jan currently out of the running due to Skaven 2nd wave)

Yep. They want to make GKs the true Elite army. When you see a Grey Knight army put down their fifteenth model at 2000 points and then close their case, you'll ask them "going to fetch your other case?" and they'll say "no, that's it."

wolfshadow wrote:

Zid wrote:
Wow thats incredibly disgusting... so I'm thinking they're gonna lean more on Guard sales then lol. I honestly can't wait for GK, been looking to build a new army and GK have always interested me... but an all metals army doesn't sit well with me atm lol.[i][u]

Uh, LOL.... Go back and read some more of the thread :-)

PLASTIC GKs bro.
People have seen them.

Plastic Termies, Plastic PAGK, Stormraven and a new 'Walker'.
Its not a matter if if, but when. (Jan Feb or march... with Jan currently out of the running due to Skaven 2nd wave)

Yeah i knew all that, I was just saying, I'd get started on em NOW but being metals... I'll just wait Plus I need to wait and see what kind of guard stuff I need to pick up. While I hate guard with a passion, CC guard might be more viable backed up by the beastly PAGK's!

Melissia wrote:Yep. They want to make GKs the true Elite army. When you see a Grey Knight army put down their fifteenth model at 2000 points and then close their case, you'll ask them "going to fetch your other case?" and they'll say "no, that's it."

@ the start of a game, I could see it being 3 Landraiders. :-)

I always joke with my friend about how they're going to make GK terminators capable of sweeping advance. I get punched, and told, "If that was the case, I'd never play your GKs" but it's still funny.

Even if most of these new rumors are true, I still think he'll have a hard time wanting to play a game.

I really love how GKs strike fear even in their "developmental stage".

They should. To paraphrase Darkseid:

" Let the universe howl in despair, for the Grey Knights have returned."

I'm still fairly new to the game, but what were the GKs like when they were released in 3rd edition in comparison to other codexes?

Munch Munch! wrote:January-March you say? Why that's where my brithday hits! It must be fate. Even though I don't play gk, I may buy the codex to check out the fluff and whatnot. I hope the plastics look might fine.

My birthday's then too! I was gonna get GK's last year, but It was too pricey. then I decided to during the summer, but then I heard about the codex coming out, so I waited.


...

Still waiting...

...

Kurgash wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Father Gabe wrote:I would expect a toning down of stats (WS 4, LD 8), with a slight point decrease (say 20pts).

Weapon load out wont change I imagine.

Chaos Cult Marines cost 20 to 23 points each for the base model, with Possessed weighing in at 26 points each. Noise Marines with their Noise guns are 25 points each. Chaos Cult Marines are uniformly Ld9 and get a +1 to stat (Sv for GKs), so stat-wise, a Grey Knight should look like this:

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv2+

Like their Chaos brethren, Grey Knights would be Fearless, have the Mark of the Emperor, and get a bonus USR tacked on top of things. If the Liber Daemonica is the Mark / Icon giving re-rolled armor saves, and the NFWs become Rending (or +1S) Power Weapons, then the GKs can come in at 25 or 26 points each like a full-kit Noise Marine or Possessed.

Then, one can look at the major options of upgrading from AA to TDA, or slapping a JP on the back.

You know they will probably make them cheaper than Cult Marines but make them slightly better.

Weren't they WS5, with A2 thanks to true grit?

Realistically, with WS5 and A2, I'd actually expect GKs to come in slightly more expensive, say 27 or 28 pts. I wouldn't expect True Grit to stick around. It's a kludge. Just make the model A2 and don't pussy-foot around with NWF + SB = +1A.
____

Pyriel- wrote:Chaos armies for example, have no problem dealing with armour whereas GKs have been given an inherited weakness against tanks, these things can dictate different point costs for troops no matter if the statlines are the same.

When you say "Chaos Cult Marines", it appears you're talking about Chaos Marines as a whole Codex. GKs will get the SRG, at a minimum, with Vendetta support being very likely on the Inquisition side of the Codex. The supposed inherited weakness is being addressed.

OTOH, if you look at a pure Chaos Cult Marine army, a la Legions, then the choices shrink in a similar way to a pure GK army, and those weaknesses are inherent in the player's choice, yes?
____

Zid wrote:I don't see a base GK coming with NFW tho. Fluffy or not we'd be talking like... 30 points or so a model

Depending on the stats and rules, 27 or 28 pts per WS5 A2 AA GK with SB & NFW may not be a bad price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Melissa: When we talk about consistency with previous editions, that is a perfectly valid reason for why Chaplains wouldn't be part of the army. We all understand very clearly that, yes GW could change the Fluff at any time,and that the have done so in the past. Arguing that random, inconsistent tidbits of Fluff will form the basis of the coming Codex is unusually speculative.

With that kind of reasoning, I guess you're looking forward to Sisters losing their Power Armor Sv3+ and being the lapdogs of the Inquisition in their next Codex, with no Sisters HQ choices whatsoever.

Arguing from a basis that GW will change the fluff to suit one's POV, and then adding words that people haven't said simply isn't helpful. I certainly won't be interacting with you any more if I can avoid it. Good day.

Power weapons for all normal GK? IDK but that seems too good to be true. I'd like to see a particular squad with all power weapons - maybe a jump pack squad with just the power weapon and no storm bolter?

The problem is, though, if GK get more unit types, how would you fit them all into one army if the points are so high? The only way to do that would be to lower their points which would inevitably mean a drop in stats which would be the worst thing ever because we may as well just call it Codex: Grey Space Marines.

Personally, I think I'd like to see the points stay the same, no real new Grey Knight units, just a drop in the cost of weapons - say make psycannons 5 points instead of 25 points but allow Grey Knights to have more weapon choices. I'd also like to see the purgation squad become the Grey Knights heavy weapons squad and allow things like heavy psycannons, plasmas etc etc.

I'm not looking forward to the new release as I've only just started collecting WH40k and chose Grey Knights without knowing about the upcoming codex. If they end up being the new uber marines, then I'll just be accused of choosing the best army and jumping on the bandwagon :( I was actually looking forward to going into battle with the existing codex and getting my ass whupped

All in all, so long as I can play a truly GK only army and have to use my head to work out how to beat my opponent rather than just fielding near unbeatable units, then I'll be happy - I certainly don't care for conscripts or stormtroopers at all.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Power weapons for all normal GK? IDK but that seems too good to be true. I'd like to see a particular squad with all power weapons - maybe a jump pack squad with just the power weapon and no storm bolter?

if GK get more unit types, how would you fit them all into one army if the points are so high?

I'd like to see the points stay the same, no real new Grey Knight units, just a drop in the cost of weapons - say make psycannons 5 points instead of 25 points

If they end up being the new uber marines, then I'll just be accused of choosing the best army and jumping on the bandwagon :(

so long as I can play a truly GK only army and have to use my head to work out how to beat my opponent rather than just fielding near unbeatable units, then I'll be happy - I certainly don't care for conscripts or stormtroopers at all.

While the SBs give some ranged fire, GKs are inherently assault troops, with their NFWs. Giving them JPs would fit very well, no need to pull the SB, but an integral BP to guarantee an extra attack would be nice way to differentiate the sloggers from the JPs.

Assuming 27 pts per AA GK, and JP GKs, 1500 pts would fit:
* 1 HQ (150),
* 5 GKTs (275),
* 2x 10 AA GKs (275 ea),
* 5 JP GKs (175), a
* a GK Dread (150) and
* 5 AA GK Heavies (200).
It's about the same as what GKs have today. For 2000, just add 2 Land Raiders, or more dudes, to use the points.

I think it's a given that Heavy weapons will be cheaper, now that 40k isn't built around stand-and-shoot, with a comensurate premium on Heavy weapons.

If you field all old models, there won't be any accusation of that!

I think you'll be able to do that just fine. You'll probably have more tools at your disposal, even without Inquisition stuff. Tho some of us are really looking forward to an expanded Inquisition army.