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JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

Not at all. Re-rolled saves simply mean that the GKs fail 3% (vs 17%) of their AA/TDA saves, 25% (vs 50%) of their cover saves, or 44% (vs 67%) of their Invul saves. It's better, but not really earth shattering - massed fire of the appropriate type will still be effective, just somewhat less so. It's not like they're auto-passing or getting those saves for free. Nor is it likely that they'll have the full breadth of attack ability that the IG and SM contain. It's sounding like a defensive Rock army.

I hadn't done the math, and assuming your correct, you don't find those numbers to be significant? I find them game breaking. Even if they are a defensive army. It's hard to neuter the offensive capabilities of an army that doesn't die.

Melissia wrote:Irrelevant. Why would chaplains being in the Grey Knights mean that the average Grey Knight is not a psyker? They would HAVE to be a psyker to use NFWs, so you would be claiming the average Grey Knight does not have an NFW, despite fluff saying otherwise.

Do you even know what the ROC list is, Melissia?

great... the age old realms of chaos discussion. me thinks this is where i leave

I can define what the Realms of Chaos list is in fifth edition with a single word.

"Irrelevant."

So, why shouldn't Grey Knights be psykers and have chaplains at the same time?

Melissia wrote:Irrelevant. Why would chaplains being in the Grey Knights mean that the average Grey Knight is not a psyker? They would HAVE to be a psyker to use NFWs, so you would be claiming the average Grey Knight does not have an NFW, despite fluff saying otherwise.

As usual, you just don't get it, and then you go on a random tangent to claim things that I'm not saying.

If one is using RoC as the basis, then the Fluff and units go hand in hand - the vast bulk of GKs are non-Psykers and the have Chaplains.

If one uses DH as the basis, then all GKs are devoted Psykers, and things like Captains, Chaplains and Librarians are completely redundant.

Next time, please learn to pay attention and understand before replying.

Thanks!


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Sarge wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

Not at all. Re-rolled saves simply mean that the GKs fail 3% (vs 17%) of their AA/TDA saves, 25% (vs 50%) of their cover saves, or 44% (vs 67%) of their Invul saves. It's better, but not really earth shattering - massed fire of the appropriate type will still be effective, just somewhat less so. It's not like they're auto-passing or getting those saves for free. Nor is it likely that they'll have the full breadth of attack ability that the IG and SM contain. It's sounding like a defensive Rock army.

I hadn't done the math, and assuming your correct, you don't find those numbers to be significant? I find them game breaking.

Even if they are a defensive army. It's hard to neuter the offensive capabilities of an army that doesn't die.

Nope, not in the slightest. If you don't take any Heavy / Special / Ordnance weapons, I can see that to be the case.

Because Necrons and Deathwing and Wraithguard and Plague Marines are totally dominating? I didn't know that.

Yeah, Melissia, you missed the point completely. John was making a fairly simple comparison, and it went right over your head.

Its easy, RoC = chaplains and no psychers OR latest fluff = no chaplains and psychers.
(or the B.Counter fluff that contains both psycher GKs and chaplains)

You cant simply pick and choose bits and pieces from various fluff sources into an amalgamation that only suits a certain view.
I´d say if GW want to pick and choose and create a codex (with newest and thus truest fluff) that contain both chaplains and psycher GKs then it is up to GW to decide this.

All we have to do is wait and see what they decide to do.

Bah why dont we just have GK Librarian Chaplains with Orbital Bombardment? Solves everyone's problem!

Only if those Orbital Bombardments consist of back-flipping Multi-Lazor-armed Dreadnoughts surfing atop Land Raiders which transform back and forth into Razorbacks ...


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Hey, I just got an email from Matt Ward, thanking me for my suggestion.

When do you think Daemon hunters are coming out anyway? I'd put my money of February...

D.P. Gumby wrote:When do you think Daemon hunters are coming out anyway? I'd put my money of February...

Probably. Skaven are booked for Jan I think. arent Orcs and Goblins getting an update too? March I think?

Sarge wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

Not at all. Re-rolled saves simply mean that the GKs fail 3% (vs 17%) of their AA/TDA saves, 25% (vs 50%) of their cover saves, or 44% (vs 67%) of their Invul saves. It's better, but not really earth shattering - massed fire of the appropriate type will still be effective, just somewhat less so. It's not like they're auto-passing or getting those saves for free. Nor is it likely that they'll have the full breadth of attack ability that the IG and SM contain. It's sounding like a defensive Rock army.

I hadn't done the math, and assuming your correct, you don't find those numbers to be significant? I find them game breaking. Even if they are a defensive army. It's hard to neuter the offensive capabilities of an army that doesn't die.

It's a significant buff,but it's certainly not game breaking. Have you ever seen a straight GK army out of the DH 'dex? My 1500 point army was a Grand Master w/a 7-man GK Terminator retinue in a LRC,2 10-man GK squads,and a Dreadnaught. That's 30 models in a 1500 point army. For 2k games,I'd break out a standard LR with a 5-man GK Termie squad on top of my 1500 list,so 36 models in a 2000 point list. I've never even broken my GK out since 5th hit,because I know people will just anhillate my two squads of vastly overpriced Troops and ignore the Termies,leaving me unable to claim objectives. In 5th,their survivability has to increase to make them viable.

Woah Grey Knights rerolling armor saves... o.O

Rerolling armor saves won't mean jack when AP3 or lower large blasts a plenty, (battle cannons, vindicators, etc.) will wipe an entire unit off the board just like any other marine.

I'm really surprised no one is even speculating about the possibility of the shrouding being 2d6x3 instead of the current 3d6. I feel like a lot of people will be complaining about that just as much as if they get to reroll saves.

I dunno about you, but I'd be glad to sit 48" away and pop light armor with a Terminator CML and never get touched.

bforber wrote:Rerolling armor saves won't mean jack when AP3 or lower large blasts a plenty, (battle cannons, vindicators, etc.) will wipe an entire unit off the board just like any other marine.

I'm really surprised no one is even speculating about the possibility of the shrouding being 2d6x3 instead of the current 3d6. I feel like a lot of people will be complaining about that just as much as if they get to reroll saves.

I dunno about you, but I'd be glad to sit 48" away and pop light armor with a Terminator CML and never get touched.

I agree.

I really think they need to justify making GK as expensive and elitist as they have been in the past. With the uprising of MSU armies, cheap transports/mech spam, GK really need an overhaul to even compete remotely. I'd really hate to spend 250+ points for a 10 man squad only to be able to be taken out by battlecannons super easily every game. Maybe giving all the units the ability to take a "mini" librarian that can cast things like teleport in place of a sergeant? That would be kind of neat (and fit into how GK love to teleport around and facepwn things)

I'd really love to see them flush out the psycher-heavyness of GK. I love the old models and everything; I'd love to build an army of GK. But cost/unviability of the army holds me back atm lol.

GKs going from PA to re-rollable AA will help quite a bit against Battlecannon, Missile Launchers and other AP3 guns.

Useless against my Demolishers and massed Plasma, tho...

Plasma Cannons? In my Chaos army!? Never thought I'd consider those options.

JohnHwangDD wrote:GKs going from PA to re-rollable AA will help quite a bit against Battlecannon, Missile Launchers and other AP3 guns.

Useless against my Demolishers and massed Plasma, tho...

Rerollable artificers... thats kinda OP... I like it

Of course, what would the point of termis be besides TH/SS and 5+ invuns? would be almost better to spam 10 man GK troops.

I could, however, see AA being standard without the rerolls. Would be on par with Sanguinary Guard minus the pw/jump packs

Artificer terminator armor?

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

We already have this, to some degree. Blood Angels can have many FnP models on the board, and so will smart Dark Eldar lists.

Commander Endova wrote:

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

We already have this, to some degree. Blood Angels can have many FnP models on the board, and so will smart Dark Eldar lists.

Not even remotely bud!

For BA its a reroll, just worse. Gives you a 50% chance to avoid a wound you already failed.

For DE it pretty much gives you a save against small arms. Seriously, 90% of DE have a 6+ save... all it does is give you a 4+ against stuff like bolters. Yeah, for incubi and things it makes them sort of like a BA marine, but not quite (T3 really mellows them out).

A rerollable 2+ would be... way way better lol. Even a 3+ rerollable. I really could see a 2+ being for a base Gk, make em 25 pts base, give em Bolter/CCW/Pistol base, and then go from there (allowing for psycannons, NFW's, etc.). Would make em fluffy, on par with sang guard (cept larger units, less mobile), and separate them from the other marine chapters. So a full 10 man would probably run 250+ without transport, be really survivable, but still succeptible to things like PW's.

They should just turn the Shrouding into a 5++ cover save. Some kind of psychic power to re-roll it.

I have actually heard before they were getting Artificer which is not a bad idea, really.


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Funny story Grey Knights are already Fearless I don't think they need Chaplains for encouragement.

Zid wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

We already have this, to some degree. Blood Angels can have many FnP models on the board, and so will smart Dark Eldar lists.

Not even remotely bud!

For BA its a reroll, just worse. Gives you a 50% chance to avoid a wound you already failed.

For DE it pretty much gives you a save against small arms. Seriously, 90% of DE have a 6+ save... all it does is give you a 4+ against stuff like bolters. Yeah, for incubi and things it makes them sort of like a BA marine, but not quite (T3 really mellows them out).

A rerollable 2+ would be... way way better lol. Even a 3+ rerollable. I really could see a 2+ being for a base Gk, make em 25 pts base, give em Bolter/CCW/Pistol base, and then go from there (allowing for psycannons, NFW's, etc.). Would make em fluffy, on par with sang guard (cept larger units, less mobile), and separate them from the other marine chapters. So a full 10 man would probably run 250+ without transport, be really survivable, but still succeptible to things like PW's.

Sure, a straight up re-rollable would be better. I'm not arguing that. But I think you may have missed my point.

Remember, any time you wouldn't get Feel No Pain, you wouldn't be getting any armor save anyway. But in the case of the Blood Angels, where you'll be getting a 3+, you essentially get a 4+ after that. That's fairly survivable. Sure, we call it Feel No Pain, but it boils down to the same thing. It's a roll you make to not lose models. It's a little worse for Blood Angels, though not by much.

It's tones better for Dark Elder. If what you say is true, and they get mostly 6+ saves, getting a 4 up on top of that makes lots of players (heres looking at you, IG) jealous.

I guess what I'm saying is that while yes, a straight up 2+ or 3+ re-rollable save would be annoying to deal with, an army with a large amount of saving re-rolls isn't revolutionary, or something that I think needs to be worried about.

Commander Endova wrote:
I guess what I'm saying is that while yes, a straight up 2+ or 3+ re-rollable save would be annoying to deal with, an army with a large amount of saving re-rolls isn't revolutionary, or something that I think needs to be worried about.

It's not having rerolls, it's the QUALITY of the rerolls that is a factor. 2+//2+ is ~2.7% fail rate, while a 3+//4+ is 16.5%, and 2+//4+ is 8.3%.

An army full of reroll-able 2+ saves is kind of a big deal, especially if you still roll night fight for spotting them (well, night fight lite).

My expectation is that the re-roll would replace night fight, which is annoying for everybody. Re-roll is consistent, and tactically simple.

Tho, if you pay for a 2++ re-rollable, but face off against Plasma Guns & Demolishers, well...

Pyriel- wrote:Its easy, RoC = chaplains and no psychers OR latest fluff = no chaplains and psychers.
(or the B.Counter fluff that contains both psycher GKs and chaplains)

Grey Knights are psykers in the current fluff, what are you talking about?

bforber wrote:Rerolling armor saves won't mean jack when AP3 or lower large blasts a plenty, (battle cannons, vindicators, etc.) will wipe an entire unit off the board just like any other marine.

I'm really surprised no one is even speculating about the possibility of the shrouding being 2d6x3 instead of the current 3d6. I feel like a lot of people will be complaining about that just as much as if they get to reroll saves.

I dunno about you, but I'd be glad to sit 48" away and pop light armor with a Terminator CML and never get touched.

It's not so much the saves from shooting, but the ability to reroll saves in close combat. That would be clutch.

Melissia wrote:I can define what the Realms of Chaos list is in fifth edition with a single word.

"Irrelevant."

So, why shouldn't Grey Knights be psykers and have chaplains at the same time?

One would think that because of their specific duty (to fight the daemons) that they would need chaplains more than most other chapters. At least that's what the novels infer...

Well, if you look at the latest codice, fluff can easily be thrown out of the window anyways... GW has pulled the Sternguard, Vanguard, Thunderfire Cannon, Land Raider Redeemer, Hive guards, Doom of Malanthai, Sanguinary guard, Furioso Librarian and others from their magic fluff hat.

I suspect that lots of people will be irritated by the fluff changes in the next Codex: DH. Jump pack are not yet disproved, as are chaplains. Dreads might be more common (or they might be accompanied by a GK warwalker!?). GKs might all be psykers or it might be only the justicars....

Phil

after looking at the DE codex, I'm pretty happy with GW's willingness to bend what is "acceptable" to make an army different.
After a half dozen codexes of "hey these space marines have furious charge and different psychic powers!" "hey tyranids have synapse, and, well, thats it!" ect. ect. I'm looking forward to grey knights being rather different from other codexes. If it comes with rerolls, shrouding and other weirdness, bring it.

I am, however, a little concerned with the rumors NFW's become power weapons, not only is it silly to have an army where 90% of the troops have power weapons, I liked the uniqueness of the higher-strength normal attacks that GK have currently.

Then again I find running an army with 40+ stormbolters enjoyable