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beigeknight wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:beige - then youre missing the basic rules knowledge needed to comment further. Reread your rulebook and note that *everything* that happens to infantry happens to every unit type in the book, except where specified otherwise.

Yeah, page 11 in the BRB. I have the LittleRedBook but I assume it's got the same rules. It didn't say that "everything that happens to infantry happens to every unit type in the book, except where specified otherwise". Or even imply that. If there is a certain passage in the book that you're refering to please point it out to me. Is your rulebook and my rulebook different somehow? Even at the top, in bold, before it starts talking about movement rules, it says "...we'll just explain how squads of infantry move..." and right after that it says "Vehicles, jump infantry, bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in detail later.

And then there's a section later on in the book talking about how vehicles move. And nowhere in there does it state that they have to stop 1" from an enemy model, because they don't have to.

What I'm trying to get at is that "...stop 1" from any model or terrain" is not a normal move, as per the vehicle movement rule.

On a side note, I wonder how many times this has actually come up in a game throughout the world.

"MODELS IN THE WAY
A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size. A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases – this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting." Pg 11
You know, in the rules for movement. Unless you're saying that a vehicle isn't a model? This harks back to the Specific > General that Nos is trying to help people understand. You have a rule saying models may not move with-in one inch. Vehicles do not have a rule saying they may move with-in 1". So as the vehicle is a model, it can not move with-in one inch.


What I'm trying to understand is how "may not move for the rest of the game" is over-ridden by "move".

ChrisCP wrote:What I'm trying to understand is how "may not move for the rest of the game" is over-ridden by "move".

If you are asking this, then you have ignored the last 10 pages of this thread and are only just parroting Nos for some reason.

'You may not do this' in the general rule vs 'Do this' in the specific rule. That's what is boils down to.

-cgmckenzie

Brother Ramses wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:What I'm trying to understand is how "may not move for the rest of the game" is over-ridden by "move".

If you are asking this, then you have ignored the last 10 pages of this thread and are only just parroting Nos for some reason.

Okay, you are forbidden from moving for the rest of the game. And you're saying that one's now allowed to move the model. It doesn't work with-in the application of the rules.

It's not allowing you to move it, it is telling you to move it. Slight difference there.

ChrisCP wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:What I'm trying to understand is how "may not move for the rest of the game" is over-ridden by "move".

If you are asking this, then you have ignored the last 10 pages of this thread and are only just parroting Nos for some reason.

Okay, you are forbidden from moving for the rest of the game. And you're saying that one's now allowed to move the model. It doesn't work with-in the application of the rules.

You are suddenly paralyzed from the neck down. You cannot move for the rest of your life. A nurse puts you in a wheelchair, and pushes you down to the hospital cafeteria.

You are not moving, you are being moved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Beige - remaining 1" from an enemy is bog standard, basic movement rules. Seriously. Claiming Im making things up while making a grievous error yourslef? Hilarious.

Plonka - seriously. Have a look at the BRB, Bikes entry.

Evidence of redundancy is NOT evidence of requirement.

Immobilised is a more specific situation, is referenced implicitly by the "as far as possible" (a redundant rule under your interpretation) and so, when immobilised and you cannot move at all - you dont move.

You have no proof of this claim. It is how you feel about it or read it. It is a Special rule and yes it still overrides it. Prove it does not ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Immobilised is NOT overruled - we've been through that.

The trukk tries to move. Immobilised kicks in. You may not move. Find the SPECIFIC allowance that lets you move. You're looking for the words "the trukk must move, even if immobilised, as far as possible"

It still lacks that rule. You still lack that rule. Your argument still fails.

And we're back at page 1. there have been absolutely no new arguments, and with certainty an immobilised trukk is not moving anywhere. It may BE moved, so its a good job this isnt the case.

Thread lock time? finally?

you want off easy yet you still have not proved anything ? Let it roll it is getting good !


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Special rule is More Specific and to keeps saying it is not is just plain stupid. The rules Tells you to move, Not make sure you have tire, keys or a Engine to move but to Move because of the wording "The shot sends the trukk out of controll[u] . Move the trukk 3d6 as far as possible in a random direction" It has gone out of control and it is Moving on its own, Not by a Player. This is more Specific !!!

Jordan, ignore what is obvious fluff in the rule; it doesn't help our side any and gives them something else to rip apart. It isn't a game about exploding trucks and shooting soldiers, its a game about plastic models and rolling dice.

Models moving occurs during its movement/shooting/assault phase and involve it going a distance with a predetermined limit. These moves are usually in any direction the player wants, with a few exceptions(mad dok grotsnik for example). However, these movements are still considered 'normal movement' and are from the model moving under its stats volition. Generally, these are optional, free to move any direction or distance with a limit, and are considered the model's representation moving itself.

The trukk movement can occur at anytime that the model is receiving damage, and has no amount of input from the controlling player-once the scatter is rolled and the distance is determined, you must move the model. The move is not optional in any regard or capacity; the player is told they must move the trukk to along the path rolled by the scatter for 3D6 inches or until an obstacle is met. The move isn't optional,has no choice for direction/distance, and is considered the model being moved.

Tried backing out of all possible fluff for that, so apologies for the boringness of the above 2 paragraphs.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It's not allowing you to move it, it is telling you to move it. Slight difference there.

Not quite correct - more exact would be:

The trukk is not allowed to move, it is telling you to move it.

Come on guys, look at how peacefull the first post was, now it looks like a gang fight, just relax, everyone has there opinion and it Is just a hobby right? Btw this is not refering to all of you.try contacting gw, everyone put their opinion in the message and have kelly clarify, although this would probably NEVER happen since it IS gw.

-hugs for the hug god !

Actually I thought this was pretty tame compared to most of the internet arguements I've seen.

I agree, it is rather tame. Sure, there is a bit of 'YOU IDIOT' flying around, but nothing we can't work with!

Besides, asking GW is a poor idea, because unless they actually make an FAQ, update the codex, or make a new ruling in WD as canon, it is worthless because the person answering isn't the rules guru.

They should make a position for that, though. Lord knows they can afford it now.

-cgmckenzie

Jidmah wrote:

cgmckenzie wrote:It's not allowing you to move it, it is telling you to move it. Slight difference there.

Not quite correct - more exact would be:

The trukk is not allowed to move, it is telling you to move it.

"It may not move for the rest of the game."

"Move the trukk"

So please again show where people keep finding permission to break 'may not move' with 'move the trukk'. After all it will have moved 3D6 in a random direction and you'll have broken the rules for an immobilised result.

ChrisCP wrote:"It may not move for the rest of the game."

"Move the trukk"

So please again show where people keep finding permission to break 'may not move' with 'move the trukk'. After all it will have moved 3D6 in a random direction and you'll have broken the rules for an immobilised result.

Easy.

"It may not move for the rest of the game."
-> The trukk may not move for the rest of the game.
Default: The trukk may move up to 18/19". The trukk may pivot on spot.
Immobilized: The trukk may not move. The trukk may not pivot.

"Move the trukk"
-> You, the player, moves the trukk.
Default: The player may not move models.
Kareen!: The player must move the Trukk 3d6" into a direction, until he moves within 1" of terrain, enemy units or touches friendly units or the table edge.

Again - that doesn't give permission, for you the player to move the trukk a distance greater than 0", which is 'as far as possible', when it may not move for the rest of the game.

And in case it was blindingly obvious, the player always moves models, "a player may move any of his units", "the player selects another unit and moves that one", "a player doesn’t have to move all (or indeed any) of his units" Page 11

The BRB says its a game and its meant to be fun. Infact its marked as THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!

Ramshackle rule is a really fun one, let them move it and stop trying to win at all costs, its just a game after all.

As Chris said.

Ignoring BR, as apparently something being defined as a move, and following normal movement rules (like, not moving off the board) doesnt count as movement.

Beige - so, you finally admit that the specific rule about not moving within 1" overrides a vehicles ability to move within 1".

(and this is to Jordan as well) So, the specific immobilised rule overrides Kareens requirement to move. Because, and this is wha tyou keep missing: nowhere in Kareen! does it tell you the vehicle can move even when it normally cant. It even reminds you of this in the FAQ, by telling you that it isnt allowed to move when that would take it off the table

So, I've proven it is more specific, at least 12 times now. You now MUST find a SPECIFIC, and for the love of "£$£$ please actually do some research (ATSKNF vs SA) on what "specific" means in 40k, especially when you've been pointed to it a dozen times now, rule allowing you to move even while immobilised.

And so were back at page 1. Kareen! IS a move, despite BRs laughable attempts to claim otherwise (with no rules), and so the farthest you can move "as possible" is 0"

ChrisCP wrote:Again - that doesn't give permission, for you the player to move the trukk a distance greater than 0", which is 'as far as possible', when it may not move for the rest of the game.

And in case it was blindingly obvious, the player always moves models, "a player may move any of his units", "the player selects another unit and moves that one", "a player doesn’t have to move all (or indeed any) of his units" Page 11

The rules differentiate between models taking action and players taking action. I have shown this some pages ago. So, as per RAW, a model moving 6" during its movement phase is not being moved by the player, but moving on its own.

Not according to the movement rules it isnt - at all points it is the model being moved by the player.

WHich makes sense....

Love the new profile pic, chrisCP

My view:

It moves. Because:

1) One of the first rules in the BGB says that specific, codex rules overwrite any rules in the BGB. So the Karreen result would overwrite the fact that immobile vehicles cannot move

2) The rules stats 'Move the trukk 3d6 as far as possible so the 'as far as possible' bit is referring to the 3D6. You roll the 3D6 and, say, get 12, you would then move as far as possible up to 12", this covers the fact it may not be possible to cover the full 12" due to impassible terrain etc.

3) Orks made it.

1) No such general rule exists. If you believe otherwise, actual page and para plase.

The rules do state that only rules named the same have a codex-wins default (e.g. smoke launchers) and where the USR has the same name ina codex and the brb. Thats it.

2) No, as far as possible means as far as possible. It does not relate to the 3D6, as you may only move 0"

3) Meh, which means it has a good chance of going straight up in the air, exploding, and all the orls wondering what the hell happened...

It does seem clear, however, that the Ramshackle is not a normal Trukk move, since it stops 1" away from terrain as well as friendly models. If it were the Trukk regularly moving, it would be able to go through the terrain, possibly suffering a Dangerous Terrain test.

I believe the "as far as possible" is in relation to this, simply a clarification that you can't just move part of the 3d6", but must move the whole distance, unless you'd run into terrain or friendly models, or the board edge.

Its a move with added restrictions.

Doesnt stop it being a move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not according to the movement rules it isnt - at all points it is the model being moved by the player.

WHich makes sense....

An infantry model moving 6" - Moving

An infantry model being tank shocked is moved by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherency - being moved.

This here is Moving vs. moving a model. Kareen tells you that you have to stop 1" before models or terrain, because it says so in the Kareen rule. If it didn't say it, you would still have to do so as per the normal movement rules. But the rule for Kareen specifies that you do, because this is not a normal Movement. Kareen also says "...apply the rusult instead of the usual effects". Usually an immoblisied vehicle would move 0", this is true. But for a trukk, we're not applying the usual effect, we're applying the Kareen result.

Look, I'm not going to get into a "specific vs. general" debate because it usually just degenerates down into coming up with more complex situations defending one's own side of the arguement. I'd like to keep this simple, with good 'ole fashion logic and explaination. There has been so many posts here explaining the difference between Movement/movement, citing examples and such.

ANd yet the main rules talk about you moving the model. Not the model moving itself. So, again, this distinction is so far only for tank shock, and only because there is a 3rd party moving the object.

Extra restrictions does not make something not-movement, same as lifting some restrictions, like in assault, again doesnt mean it is non-movement.

Though Tank Shock may have an answer here. If you Tank Shock a pinned unit, does it still move out of the way?

Pinned units may not move, and yet, Iirc, they still would move if Tank Shocked. It is a case of another model causing the situation of movement, but that model is not actually the thing doing the moving- the Tank and the Pinned unit don't touch each other. Similarly, the unit that caused the Wrecked or Destroyed result doesn't touch the Trukk (for a definition of 'touch' that must, in 40K, include things like telekinesis and magnetic tractor beams), but 'causes' it to move, despite it being effected by a rule saying it cannot move.

Yes, and as was pointed out - this is the 3rd party object doing the moving, not the person/object moving.

The unit that caused the kareen can touch the object - Ram.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ANd yet the main rules talk about you moving the model. Not the model moving itself. So, again, this distinction is so far only for tank shock, and only because there is a 3rd party moving the object.

Extra restrictions does not make something not-movement, same as lifting some restrictions, like in assault, again doesnt mean it is non-movement.

Well my models aren't magical in any way so I have to move them.

Ok, let's try this. As I was checking the assault section, I came across section DECLARE ASSAULTS(I'm not yelling that, just pointing it out as a header in the rulebook) that says "...models may have to expend some of their movement to move around impassible terrain..."

Now, a model moving 6" is expending movement. A model in an assault moving around impassible terrain is expending movement. A vehicle moving 6" or 12" is expending movement. Now, it is possible that a model can expend all of it's movement, and still be moved. It's not Moving, because it's probably pretty tired. But something else can make it move. Like a Tank Shock, or Lash, or a Mawlock(see, the distinction is not just for Tank Shock).

A trukk that has expended all of it's movement at the end of it's movement phase has 0" of move left. Yet it can still Kareen, if it is hit by a 3rd party and it rolls a Kareen on the Ramshackle chart.