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Durza wrote:
Fulgrim did this to prove a point. The Imperium's reasons for not attacking the Laer was that it would take too much time and they were content to stay on their planet. When everyone heard about it, they tried to stop him because of the casualties they would cause, not because of the race that would die. It was regarded as a pretty normal thing to do.

Your point? This is 40k remember. No race actually gives a crap about the other race. They have no problems seeing other races die if it helps them in the end.

The policy of humans only came long before the Age of Strife, or perhaps you thought that there were no sentient species on the planets humans took for their own during the Golden Age? Tau were still hitting each other with sticks at that time, and it's foolish to assume the Eldar were the only aliens around.

Unless, I'm mistaken. One of the HH books, I can't remember for the life of me so I could have made this up so sorry, has mention of human faction who had turned themselves into machines that make even the Mechanicus look tame had representatives sent to them by the Imperium who they killed and vivisected using the remains saying that the Imperium weren't human btu aliens. Why would they do that if they liked aliens?

Eldar hate humans for refusing to learn from their mistakes, and for being xenophobic bigots. They are nowhere near as xenophobic as the humans, and who can blame them for attacking a race which would gladly wipe them out just for existing?

What the hell are you smoking that has clouded out your brain? You said that Eldar hate humanity for being xenophobes and yet state later that Eldar are xenophobes. Please stop this, you're just embarrassing yourself.

The Eldar hate humanity cause it now rules the galaxy which the makes the Eldar angry cause they consider the galaxy to be their birthright plus the Eldar are also Xenophobic the just express it differently from humans in ways. Infact the Eldar consider humanity to be brutes. The Eldar look down on everyone. Also, the Imperium has never, to my knowledge, made it their mission to kill the Eldar craftworlds unless the Craftworlds did something to annoy them.

Also, what mistakes has humanity committed that humanity has refused to learn from?

Space Crusader wrote:The orks have won. They have not lost a single battle. They just come back for more. Humankind in its current form are pathetic shards of the Golden age. Besides, we all know that the Tau will mind controll the orks and rule the galaxy

Space Crusader

Oh just hush! The Tau will go extinct under the might of the Green Tide.

The roman empire "fell" for hundreds of years.

The empire is ALREADY "falling" inasmuch as they can "fall". It just takes 10,000 years for anything that big to fall.

So what you're looking at is 10,000 years of slow breaking up into smaller factions, occasionally getting back together into alliances, falling apart again, etc etc.

Ascalam wrote:
DE codex timeline- pg 20 'the solar systems plunged into darkness by the eldar's star-theft wither and die in the freezing cold of the void, but the eldar care not.' no merntion of inhabited systems there. That was right before the start of the fall, so it's entirely possible, but it's not actually mentioned. I can see them trolling some pooor schmucks if it's around the time of the fall , especially right beforehand

I just checked out the book and you're right but I'm curious why they even bothered to mention the fact that the star system dies at all if it had no inhabitants? An entire star system that are uninhabited die in sci-fi, who cares?

Again, its is possible that the systems were or at least some of them were inhabited but its not mentioned. To me the fall of the Eldar began at around this time seeing as its when the race started becoming bored and hedonistic. The 'true' fall meaning when the Empire was destoyed happened much later but the seeds were sowed in this era.

Rented Tritium wrote:The roman empire "fell" for hundreds of years.

The empire is ALREADY "falling" inasmuch as they can "fall". It just takes 10,000 years for anything that big to fall.

So what you're looking at is 10,000 years of slow breaking up into smaller factions, occasionally getting back together into alliances, falling apart again, etc etc.

ForgeWorld says that the Gods of Chaos want to merge at least the galaxy with the Warp and this will probably happen with a Chaos victory which is something that is 90% to happen with the fall of the Imperium, so basically your idea wont happen.

The US-Pakistan situation will not devolve into out and out war, and if it does, the US will not murder all of the Pakistani's because, get this, It is the wrong thing to do. The United States is the mightiest country in the world, but it doesn't simply kill off everyone that thinks differently than itself, because its wrong.

I am aware of the Age of Strife. Does that change the fact that the policy on finding civilizations who had created AI was complete and total genocide? No, it was easier to kill things than to come up with an actual solution to the issue.

The, people were mean to mean, so I can be mean to everyone is a logic failure. That is what happens when you dont properly learn how to deal with others, because you're a sociopathic megalomaniac who never bothered learning people skills.

Yes, why would I side with the faction that has its leaders take responsibility for there actions, and when deemed inappropriate, even against another species, are punishable by death. (I.e. Brightsword). The Tau are not above the Greater Good, and are responsible for their actions.

Despite all of that, this is only a jabs at the Emperor: The Imperium is so much worse its laughable. Genocide is openly praised, developing and advancing technology is heresy punishable by death, and any hope for a continued existence as long been written off by anyone capable of understanding just what is occurring in 40k.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out, in a future where there is only war, the Orks have already won.

Now I gotta go find my fish-light. I know I put it somewhere...

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:The roman empire "fell" for hundreds of years.

The empire is ALREADY "falling" inasmuch as they can "fall". It just takes 10,000 years for anything that big to fall.

So what you're looking at is 10,000 years of slow breaking up into smaller factions, occasionally getting back together into alliances, falling apart again, etc etc.

ForgeWorld says that the Gods of Chaos want to merge at least the galaxy with the Warp and this will probably happen with a Chaos victory which is something that is 90% to happen with the fall of the Imperium, so basically your idea wont happen.

"forgeworld says"

"chaos gods want to"

That's nice

CpatTom wrote:The US-Pakistan situation will not devolve into out and out war, and if it does, the US will not murder all of the Pakistani's because, get this, It is the wrong thing to do. The United States is the mightiest country in the world, but it doesn't simply kill off everyone that thinks differently than itself, because its wrong.

I was using that situation as an example of politics you dolt.rt

Also, the US doing the right thing is just hilarious. The US government just like other governments around the world do what is in their best interest. Like for example, the US and their support of Mubarak and other tyrants when it suited them while at the same time spouting about wanting democracy, it was hypocritical and the wrong thing to do but was done due to such acts serving US interests better.

I am aware of the Age of Strife. Does that change the fact that the policy on finding civilizations who had created AI was complete and total genocide? No, it was easier to kill things than to come up with an actual solution to the issue.

What are you talking about now? The Imperial policy is very simple, kill the AI so as to prevent a recurrence of the Iron Men rebellion. Hey, take a look at the Deathwatch rpg: The Achilus Assault. If what I've heard is correct, a human planet found a DAoT AI(don't know if its an Iron Men) that with a few DAoT tech helped them drive the Tau empire from the planet and then the AI proceeded to mind control the human population and turn them into slaves.

The, people were mean to mean, so I can be mean to everyone is a logic failure. That is what happens when you dont properly learn how to deal with others, because you're a sociopathic megalomaniac who never bothered learning people skills.

Accusing me of something here?

Yes, why would I side with the faction that has its leaders take responsibility for there actions, and when deemed inappropriate, even against another species, are punishable by death. (I.e. Brightsword). The Tau are not above the Greater Good, and are responsible for their actions.

Oh really then why was no one punished for the Reek extermination campaign?

Despite all of that, this is only a jabs at the Emperor: The Imperium is so much worse its laughable. Genocide is openly praised, developing and advancing technology is heresy punishable by death, and any hope for a continued existence as long been written off by anyone capable of understanding just what is occurring in 40k.

Nearly everyone commits genocide or xenocide or worse things so why bother to hide it? New tech or to be more accurate already existing tech is being developed even more but they're taking a long time to circulate across the Imperium. Next, the tech stagnation is the fault of the Mechanicus which is allied to the Imperium if you didn't know that.

Finally, the Imperium is worse compared to what?

P.S: You going on about the genocides the other races commit is just hypocritical seeing as your precious Tau wiped the Reek out from a star-system for their own reasons not caring about the local tenants at all.

Rented Tritium wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:The roman empire "fell" for hundreds of years.

The empire is ALREADY "falling" inasmuch as they can "fall". It just takes 10,000 years for anything that big to fall.

So what you're looking at is 10,000 years of slow breaking up into smaller factions, occasionally getting back together into alliances, falling apart again, etc etc.

ForgeWorld says that the Gods of Chaos want to merge at least the galaxy with the Warp and this will probably happen with a Chaos victory which is something that is 90% to happen with the fall of the Imperium, so basically your idea wont happen.

"forgeworld says"

"chaos gods want to"

That's nice

Yes, Forgeworld says that in its book 'Imperial Armour Volume 7: The Siege of Vraks 3 pg 173'. So your idea won't be happening, unless you want the galaxy to be destroyed?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yes, Forgeworld says that in its book 'Imperial Armour Volume 7: The Siege of Vraks 3 pg 173'. So your idea won't be happening, unless you want the galaxy to be destroyed?

I'm sorry, but no. IA7 doesn't tell the future. Just because the chaos gods WANT to do a certain thing on a certain date doesn't mean that it WILL happen. We're having a conversation about how the imperium would fall, the clause of "barring unrelated destruction" should be assumed for any point. You're basically nitpicking with a point that's utterly unrelated to what the thread is actually about.

Rented Tritium wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yes, Forgeworld says that in its book 'Imperial Armour Volume 7: The Siege of Vraks 3 pg 173'. So your idea won't be happening, unless you want the galaxy to be destroyed?

I'm sorry, but no. IA7 doesn't tell the future. Just because the chaos gods WANT to do a certain thing on a certain date doesn't mean that it WILL happen. We're having a conversation about how the imperium would fall, the clause of "barring unrelated destruction" should be assumed for any point. You're basically nitpicking with a point that's utterly unrelated to what the thread is actually about.

The fall of the Imperium is, barring a miracle, guaranteed. What I was stating is that your idea of the Imperium falling and humanity surviving as separate states that occasionally ally won't be happening due to various fluff like the CABAL of the 'HH' series and the Inquisition books that had Jaq Draco stating that the fall of the Imperium will bring about a Chaos victory and a Chaos victory pretty much entails the galaxy becoming one with the Warp. Thus everyone are united and equal in death and eternal suffering.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Jaq Draco stating that the fall of the Imperium will bring about a Chaos victory

Just because a character says so doesn't mean it is actually true and canon. In-universe observations and opinions can simply be wrong.

We were not told this by an omniscient reliable narrator.

Rented Tritium wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Jaq Draco stating that the fall of the Imperium will bring about a Chaos victory

Just because a character says so doesn't mean it is actually true and canon. In-universe observations and opinions can simply be wrong.

We were not told this by an omniscient reliable narrator.

I apologize for you getting the wrong idea from my post. Jaq Draco didn't state this. I said his name along with mentioning Inquisition novel cause from my experience most 40ker's know who Jaq Draco is and what novels he appears in. The fluff surrounding this is stating that Chaos is advancing on the universe, meaning its growing in strength, and the Emp is dying. From what I heard they are afraid that the death of the Emperor and thus the fall of the Imperium would lead to a new Eye of Terror but formed from humans whose size is that of the size of the Imperium(this is old fluff but the CABAL of the HH series also feared the same thing so *shrug*).

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I was using that situation as an example of politics you dolt.rt

Please keep posts about the topic, as name calling serves little purpose, other than to highlight the name-callers ignorant nature.

Also, the US doing the right thing is just hilarious. The US government just like other governments around the world do what is in their best interest. Like for example, the US and their support of Mubarak and other tyrants when it suited them while at the same time spouting about wanting democracy, it was hypocritical and the wrong thing to do but was done due to such acts serving US interests better.

I didnt bring up the example of US foreign policy, and will not derail the thread with comment.

What are you talking about now? The Imperial policy is very simple, kill the AI so as to prevent a recurrence of the Iron Men rebellion. Hey, take a look at the Deathwatch rpg: The Achilus Assault. If what I've heard is correct, a human planet found a DAoT AI(don't know if its an Iron Men) that with a few DAoT tech helped them drive the Tau empire from the planet and then the AI proceeded to mind control the human population and turn them into slaves.

Congratulations. Now the IoM uses AI just like all those human empires it purged on site during the Great Crusade. Good Example.

Accusing me of something here?

The Emperor actually, haha. Admitting something here?

Oh really then why was no one punished for the Reek extermination campaign?

If you know the details concerning the Reek I would love to hear them, as I really don't know what is going on with that. I like using evidence to reach conclusions; however, if you know that the Reek are actually Care Bears, and threatening the Tau's place as the cuddliest 40k faction, I will redact that point of my argument. If not, please don't point to evidence that isnt evidence at all.

Nearly everyone commits genocide or xenocide or worse things so why bother to hide it? New tech or to be more accurate already existing tech is being developed even more but they're taking a long time to circulate across the Imperium. Next, the tech stagnation is the fault of the Mechanicus which is allied to the Imperium if you didn't know that.

Finally, the Imperium is worse compared to what?

P.S: You going on about the genocides the other races commit is just hypocritical seeing as your precious Tau wiped the Reek out from a star-system for their own reasons not caring about the local tenants at all.

Yes blame the Mechanicum for the Emperor's restrictions on tech because of his fear of AI. Claiming the Mechanicum isn't part of the IoM is simply obtuse.
The Imperium is worse than the Emperor.
Where might I read about the Reek again?

@ reznov: Right, but that doesn't mean that's actually a true thing that will happen. It just means that characters in the universe THINK it will happen.

CpatTom wrote:
Please keep posts about the topic, as name calling serves little purpose, other than to highlight the name-callers ignorant nature.

I think you're ignorant, so lets just agree to disagree .

I didnt bring up the example of US foreign policy, and will not derail the thread with comment.

Your post is giving the impression that governments do what they do cause its the right thing.

Congratulations. Now the IoM uses AI just like all those human empires it purged on site during the Great Crusade. Good Exam

Bzzt, wrong. The planet is in the middle of Tau space in the Jericho Reach and the Imperium doesn't even know that such a situation has taken place. So what were you saying again?

The Emperor actually, haha. Admitting something here?

No, just curious about who or what you were ranting about?

If you know the details concerning the Reek I would love to hear them, as I really don't know what is going on with that. I like using evidence to reach conclusions; however, if you know that the Reek are actually Care Bears, and threatening the Tau's place as the cuddliest 40k faction, I will redact that point of my argument. If not, please don't point to evidence that isnt evidence at all.

I don't know much. Only that they got exterminated from a star-system by the Tau. The Why as far as I know is never stated? Still geno/xeno-cide is still an extermination no matter what, so don't bother.

Yes blame the Mechanicum for the Emperor's restrictions on tech because of his fear of AI. Claiming the Mechanicum isn't part of the IoM is simply obtuse.
The Imperium is worse than the Emperor.
Where might I read about the Reek again?

Do you read the fluff at all? The Adeptus Mechanicus themselves hate AI, they consider it abhorrent. The Emp was all in favor of developing new tech, he simply put up ones true restriction of no Iron man level AI which was of no problem to the Mechanicus since they themselves don't like AI.

The Mechanicum are an independent entity from the Imperium. Infact they predate the existence of the Imperium. You are hopeless, you don't know the fluff and just spout out Tau propaganda. The Imperium do not follow the Emperor's vision but at this point, its all we got.

Ask the Tau poster who I gave praises to(I forgot his name).

Rented Tritium wrote:@ reznov: Right, but that doesn't mean that's actually a true thing that will happen. It just means that characters in the universe THINK it will happen.

And why is your knowledge supposedly more trustworthy than theirs?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:@ reznov: Right, but that doesn't mean that's actually a true thing that will happen. It just means that characters in the universe THINK it will happen.

And why is your knowledge supposedly more trustworthy than theirs?

I never said it was. I'm saying that we can't take what they think will happen in the future as canon.

You said my concept of the fall of the empire would "not happen" in very strong statements which you backed up with subjective opinions of in-universe characters.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Your post is giving the impression that governments do what they do cause its the right thing.

Because I believe governments should do the right thing.

Bzzt, wrong. The planet is in the middle of Tau space in the Jericho Reach and the Imperium doesn't even know that such a situation has taken place. So what were you saying again?

Please clarify when human doesnt mean IoM. It allows for better communication.
Ok, so you shouldn't develop AI cause something bad happened those two times right? How about not having an Emperor, thats screwed up more times than twice throughout history, but that didnt stop the Emperor from making himself Emperor. Cool.

I don't know much. Only that they got exterminated from a star-system by the Tau. The Why as far as I know is never stated? Still geno/xeno-cide is still an extermination no matter what, so don't bother.

Much or anything? Tau policy does allow for extermination of things like Tyranids, which will never be able to adhere to the greater good. You have zero support to Tau genocides. Thanks for coming out.

Do you read the fluff at all? The Adeptus Mechanicus themselves hate AI, they consider it abhorrent. The Emp was all in favor of developing new tech, he simply put up ones true restriction of no Iron man level AI which was of no problem to the Mechanicus since they themselves don't like AI.

Machine spirits are simpler AI programs. They just can't be called AI, cause you know, its Heresy. Check out what happens with Titans.

The Mechanicum are an independent entity from the Imperium. Infact they predate the existence of the Imperium. You are hopeless, you don't know the fluff and just spout out Tau propaganda. The Imperium do not follow the Emperor's vision but at this point, its all we got.

The Mechanicum are not independent. They hold a seat on the council of HLoT and could not function without the IoM. Yes, they are technically their own "separate" entity (just like all those puppet states the Soviet Union installed). Any limited knowledge on the functioning of the IoM would make one aware of that.

And why is your knowledge supposedly more trustworthy than theirs?

Because it is given to us by an omniscient Narrator. Omniscient is the key word. In universe characters are limited by their grasp of reality, personality, personal knowledge, and scope of vieew. Omniscient narrators know everything. Thats the definition of omniscient.

Assuming that Imperium does not crash and burn, one could then say then the Imperium could follow the same history as the Roman Empire did, first breaking into halves, then one half being attacked and the capitol sacked while the other doesn't (or can't) help, then the other half creating a new empire, then the empire whose capitol was sacked splits into smaller kingdoms, then the church on the capitol of that "empire" attempts to spread their faith, then reunites part of the empire, then it follows the rest of European history, but on a galactic scale.

It would be... odd, to say the least, to see this on a galactic scale, and the enemies of the Roman and Holy Roman Empires were not xenopobic and genocidal mooks, so it could be safe to assume that somewhere in there (probably after Terra gets sacked) that (insert army here) could swoop in and destroy the Imperium. That half, at least.

CpatTom wrote:
Because I believe governments should do the right thing.

I too wish they would do that but I know that they don't cause thats life.

Please clarify when human doesnt mean IoM. It allows for better communication.
Ok, so you shouldn't develop AI cause something bad happened those two times right? How about not having an Emperor, thats screwed up more times than twice throughout history, but that didnt stop the Emperor from making himself Emperor. Cool.

You are hopeless. You don't try and look at things objectively you just spout your opinion, it pointless talking to you.

Remember the Age of Strife and the Iron Men rebellion which helped tremendously in bringing down that age of 'enlightenment.

Much or anything? Tau policy does allow for extermination of things like Tyranids, which will never be able to adhere to the greater good. You have zero support to Tau genocides. Thanks for coming out.

I told you to talk to that poster I praised earlier. He himself stated that the Tau for some reason wiped an entire star-system clean of a sentient species who claimed that star-system first.

Here is the source he used: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Noisome_Reek#.TtqiU7KMhBY

But I know you'll ignore it cause Tau are 'perfect'.

Machine spirits are simpler AI programs. They just can't be called AI, cause you know, its Heresy. Check out what happens with Titans.

The Emp and the Mechanicus oppose the creation of full blown sentient AI. Simple AI like Machine spirits are not a problem.

The Mechanicum are not independent. They hold a seat on the council of HLoT and could not function without the IoM. Yes, they are technically their own "separate" entity (just like all those puppet states the Soviet Union installed). Any limited knowledge on the functioning of the IoM would make one aware of that.

Who do you think runs the Imperium? Its the High Lords which means that the Mechanicus alongside the other factions helps run the Imperium so they are not taking orders from anyone. They are independent from the rest of the Imperium in that they have their ow religion, their own fleets, their own laws etc. Hell there have been cases where the Mechanicus have condemned entire Imperium worlds to fall by providing no assistance with Tech cause those worlds have done something to offend them but the Imperium itself can do nothing to change the Mechanicus's mind.

Because it is given to us by an omniscient Narrator. Omniscient is the key word. In universe characters are limited by their grasp of reality, personality, personal knowledge, and scope of vieew. Omniscient narrators know everything. Thats the definition of omniscient.

Which ForgeWorld is a part of. They say that the Chaos gods want the galaxy to become one with the Warp. Something I can only see happening when Chaos wins, which they will if the Imperium falls. To bad for you Tau but great news to me .

McNinja wrote:Assuming that Imperium does not crash and burn, one could then say then the Imperium could follow the same history as the Roman Empire did, first breaking into halves, then one half being attacked and the capitol sacked while the other doesn't (or can't) help, then the other half creating a new empire, then the empire whose capitol was sacked splits into smaller kingdoms, then the church on the capitol of that "empire" attempts to spread their faith, then reunites part of the empire, then it follows the rest of European history, but on a galactic scale.

It would be... odd, to say the least, to see this on a galactic scale, and the enemies of the Roman and Holy Roman Empires were not xenopobic and genocidal mooks, so it could be safe to assume that somewhere in there (probably after Terra gets sacked) that (insert army here) could swoop in and destroy the Imperium. That half, at least.

I very much doubt it. I only see either a Chaos or Nid victory so as Chaos Space Marines so often say: "Let the Galaxy burn!"

Space marines make up over 50% of GW's money. They will never fall.

Rented Tritium wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:@ reznov: Right, but that doesn't mean that's actually a true thing that will happen. It just means that characters in the universe THINK it will happen.

And why is your knowledge supposedly more trustworthy than theirs?

I never said it was. I'm saying that we can't take what they think will happen in the future as canon.

You said my concept of the fall of the empire would "not happen" in very strong statements which you backed up with subjective opinions of in-universe characters.

Okay I get what you're saying and I respect that. In the end its up to GW what happens, to me the only logical scenario is that either Nids eat the galaxy or Chaos reigns supreme.

Ogryn wrote:Space marines make up over 50% of GW's money. They will never fall.

Very true .

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Ok, so you shouldn't develop AI cause something bad happened those two times right? How about not having an Emperor, thats screwed up more times than twice throughout history, but that didnt stop the Emperor from making himself Emperor. Cool.

You are hopeless. You don't try and look at things objectively you just spout your opinion, it pointless talking to you.

Remember the Age of Strife and the Iron Men rebellion which helped tremendously in bringing down that age of 'enlightenment.

Thats not a response. If yo don't want to debate a point any further, just remove it from your response.

If humanity stop doing something every time something bad happened the first or second time we did it, we wouldn't have gotten very far from any perspective. So, yes, the Age of Strife happened. Why not stop bitching about it, and get AI right this time? Hell, the Emperor showed hubris in every thing else he did, why not this?

I told you to talk to that poster I praised earlier. He himself stated that the Tau for some reason wiped an entire star-system clean of a sentient species who claimed that star-system first.

Here is the source he used: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Noisome_Reek#.TtqiU7KMhBY

But I know you'll ignore it cause Tau are 'perfect'.

Thanks for the source. Now, besides the fact we dont know anything about the reek, and they could be an irrational species of Nid monsters, or could have rebuked all of the Tau Water Caste sent to broker peace. As well as, "This was until the arrival of Aun'Va who instilled within the Fire Warriors a righteous rage which they turned against the hateful Reek which led to them being eliminated at Si'coa." So your example of Tau genocide is the forceful elimination of an attacker from a Tau system. I know that English may not be your fist language, but that one sentence does not mean that the Reek, whoever they are, were exterminated, in anyway whatsoever. It simply means they are no longer present in the Si'Coa system. This is not support for your argument, despite the fact you got "some Tau guy" to admit it (which is also called a fallacy of authority. Simply because he likes the Tau doesn't mean he knows anything about them)

Who do you think runs the Imperium? Its the High Lords which means that the Mechanicus alongside the other factions helps run the Imperium so they are not taking orders from anyone. They are independent from the rest of the Imperium in that they have their ow religion, their own fleets, their own laws etc. Hell there have been cases where the Mechanicus have condemned entire Imperium worlds to fall by providing no assistance with Tech cause those worlds have done something to offend them but the Imperium itself can do nothing to change the Mechanicus's mind.

The Mechanicum weren't ruled by the Emperor? Oh, no, yes they were, they just called him the Omnissah. per lexicanum: "While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus). They take orders from the HLoT and the Inquisition, just like everyone else in the Inquisition, because they are part of the Imperium.

Which ForgeWorld is a part of. They say that the Chaos gods want the galaxy to become one with the Warp. Something I can only see happening when Chaos wins, which they will if the Imperium falls. To bad for you Tau but great news to me ..

Something the Chaos gods "want", which you can only assume will happen given some set of circumstances? Yes, and Grey Knights want to kill all the chaos, which I can only assume will happen when the Draigo returns. Not everything a character "wants" to happen comes true, and not everything we assume causes that to happen is right.

Better safe than sorry, AIs are dangerous, the Tau may not get crushed by Imperials or Orks, but their own AIs might just turn on them one day. And even if the Tau don't commit genocide, they still re-educate *cough* brainwash *cough* non-compliant individuals in their Empeire.

CpatTom wrote:Thats not a response. If yo don't want to debate a point any further, just remove it from your response.

If humanity stop doing something every time something bad happened the first or second time we did it, we wouldn't have gotten very far from any perspective. So, yes, the Age of Strife happened. Why not stop bitching about it, and get AI right this time? Hell, the Emperor showed hubris in every thing else he did, why not this?

And risk another AI rebellion? Did you even read the thread I created that had that little comic showing that AI and it terrifying capability to subvert tech and you want to create that again?

The Emp and the Admech both agreed on the issue of NO AI which means that the war with the Iron men was terrible and helped weaken humanity to be hit with the crippling strike of the Warp storms and psykers appearing everywhere.

Thanks for the source. Now, besides the fact we dont know anything about the reek, and they could be an irrational species of Nid monsters, or could have rebuked all of the Tau Water Caste sent to broker peace. As well as, "This was until the arrival of Aun'Va who instilled within the Fire Warriors a righteous rage which they turned against the hateful Reek which led to them being eliminated at Si'coa." So your example of Tau genocide is the forceful elimination of an attacker from a Tau system. I know that English may not be your fist language, but that one sentence does not mean that the Reek, whoever they are, were exterminated, in anyway whatsoever. It simply means they are no longer present in the Si'Coa system. This is not support for your argument, despite the fact you got "some Tau guy" to admit it (which is also called a fallacy of authority. Simply because he likes the Tau doesn't mean he knows anything about them)

It says that they were eliminated, not driven away, they were eliminated. Extermination is still extermination no matter what way you cut it so get over it.

I said you to talk to the guy cause he would be a friendly face compared to me but if you don't want that, thats okay.

The Mechanicum weren't ruled by the Emperor? Oh, no, yes they were, they just called him the Omnissah. per lexicanum: "While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus). They take orders from the HLoT and the Inquisition, just like everyone else in the Inquisition, because they are part of the Imperium.

Bzzt, fail! From your link:

While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence. Due to the great amount of power it wields, the Adeptus Mechanicus is more like an allied empire than an organisation within the Imperium.

After the Emperor formed the Imperium, he engendered support with the Martian Mechanicum, an already existing empire. On Mars, he was commonly seen as the Omnissiah, the earthly representative of the Machine God. As the Mechanicum put down a small rebellion by senior tech-priests, the Fabricator-General of Mars and the Emperor signed the Treaty of Mars, allying the two empires, guaranteeing the sovereignty of each. In return for supplying the Imperium with war machines and servicing the technology of the Imperium, any and all STC technology found by the Imperium would be donated to the Mechanicum.

Next about the High-Lords and the Inquistion:

The High Lords

A High Lord of Terra

The following nine offices are almost always represented as High Lords:

The Master of the Administratum
The Inquisitorial Representativea
The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum

The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus

The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites
The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators
The Master of the Astronomican
The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum
The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica

This is from here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/High_Lords_of_Terra#.Ttscs7KMhBY

So, how is the Mechanicus taking orders from the High-Lords when infact they are a member of the High-Lords?

Finally, the Inquisition's power is not unlimited. If you read the fluff, you would know this that they have to deal with their peers in the Imperium, ex: Space Marine Chapters, Adeptus Mechanicus etc, diplomatically. Also, the Emp doesn't rule the Mehchanicus anymore they do their own thing now.

How about more proof:

Dark Heresy rpg: Ascension pg 178-179 wrote:The Adeptus Mechanicus

The servants of the Machine God exist as a nigh autonomous
class within the multitude of the Emperor’s servants. They
consider themselves outside of many of the laws that govern
most of Humanity, and they openly deny many of the teachings
of the Ecclesiarchy. Despite that this vast, ancient and highly
secretive organisation appears to so openly reject the mores of
the Imperium, it is ubiquitous. The reason for this is that the
Imperium simply could not function without the Priesthood of
Mars—all of Mankind’s accomplishments would crumble and
fall within a generation were the Tech-Priests to not maintain
them. Without them, no space ship would ply the void, no
army march to war, no raw material be refined and nothing
more than a stone hovel be constructed.

That shows that the Imperium need the Mechanicus more than the Mechanicus need the Imperium.

Also this:

Dark Heresy rpg: Ascension pg 179 wrote:There are uncounted records of confrontation between
Inquisitors and members of the Adeptus Mechanicus. To date,
such battles have largely been confined to small skirmishes
fought between bitter rivals, and have rarely flared up into
open conflict between larger numbers of either organisation.
Indeed, the Inquisition relies upon the services of the Adeptus
Mechanicus as much as any other organisation, and so great
pains are often taken to ensure personal conflict between
individual Inquisitors and Tech-Priests does not escalate into
something more damaging. Despite this, many within the
Inquisition resent the attitudes of the Adeptus Mechanicus,
while many Tech-Priests begrudge interference from
the Inquisition.

It shows that the Inquisition and the Mechanicus fight each other from time to time and the Inquisition actually does everything they can to prevent a full-scale conflict to erupt between them and the Mechanicus cause they too need the Adeptus Mechanicus

Lastly, there is a nice quote from the rpg's that has a Tech-Priest that has turned from the Imperium who makes a nice speech to an Inquisitor that the Adeptus Mechanicus will survive long after the Imperium crumbles to dust.

Something the Chaos gods "want", which you can only assume will happen given some set of circumstances? Yes, and Grey Knights want to kill all the chaos, which I can only assume will happen when the Draigo returns. Not everything a character "wants" to happen comes true, and not everything we assume causes that to happen is right.

The CABAL states a Chaos victory, the Illuminati in the books that feature Jaq Draco are trying to take steps to prevent a Chaos victory so its seems to me that a Chaos is the faction with the highest odds of wining .

Anyway, please don't mention the fail that is Draigo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I found that quote I mentioned:

Dark Heresy rpg: The Inquisitor's Handbook pg 146 wrote:“Foolish meat-puppet! You preen and prance before a pathetic
would-be god kept alive only by our arts! You blind yourself
with your talk of heresies and your ineffectual fumblings at
keeping the aether at bay, and for what? You know nothing!
You are nothing! If you had the slightest inkling of the true
patterns of reality you would crawl away and hide! We of the
Mechanicum are, were and shall be. We existed long before
your vain Imperium and we shall remain after it is naught but
cinder ash!”

— The Renegade Magos Malygris, Vox recording
recovered from the body of Inquisitor Balliol.

Yeah, its not from an Omniscient viewpoint but still every interesting .

Doesn't the IoM still use AIs.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

McNinja wrote:Assuming that Imperium does not crash and burn, one could then say then the Imperium could follow the same history as the Roman Empire did, first breaking into halves, then one half being attacked and the capitol sacked while the other doesn't (or can't) help, then the other half creating a new empire, then the empire whose capitol was sacked splits into smaller kingdoms, then the church on the capitol of that "empire" attempts to spread their faith, then reunites part of the empire, then it follows the rest of European history, but on a galactic scale.

It would be... odd, to say the least, to see this on a galactic scale, and the enemies of the Roman and Holy Roman Empires were not xenopobic and genocidal mooks, so it could be safe to assume that somewhere in there (probably after Terra gets sacked) that (insert army here) could swoop in and destroy the Imperium. That half, at least.

I very much doubt it. I only see either a Chaos or Nid victory so as Chaos Space Marines so often say: "Let the Galaxy burn!"

Honestly, so do I, unless GW pulls some insanity to bring the IoM back from the brink (they probably will). However, if that chaos gods realize that the nids are perhaps their greatest threat to total galactic domination/integration, why don't they pull out all of the stops to halt their advance? I recall that there was a fleet (or splinter fleet) that got caught up fighting a massive daemon force. I do not remember if any one side had the advantage, but seeing as how the daemons are infinite, but the marines are not, shouldn't the Chaos Marines focus their efforts into another Black Crusade (perhaps led by someone a tad more competent)? The stagnant nature of the universe is primarily due to the... loner, I suppose, nature of pretty much everything in it, and since barely anyone works together, no one side can win.

The Tyranids are small portions of a larger fleet, unlikely to conquer the galaxy before the main fleet sets in.

Chaos daemons refuse to simply flood into a planet, considering how many daemons there are, which would grant them almost instant victory (although I could be missing something about how daemons invade a planet).

Chaos Marines work together like a cell phone and water. Their only edge is the gods have their backs (usually).

Eldar are dying, but still xenophobic and would rather use a "lesser" race than actually fight with them.

Dark Eldar don't give a damn, they're safe in their nigh-unassailable home realm, although they tend not to ally themselves with any race without kidnapping or extorting "exchanges" with said races (see Tau encounter with the DE), so don't really care about galactic domination (as far as I know).

Tau are too small to be of any real threat, but are sizeable enough to hold their own for at least a while.

IoM is on the decline. Their forces are spread thin, the SMs are too few, and refuse the help (for the most part) of any other species that offers them assistance.

Orks are just there for the fights. No Waaaaaagh! is big enough or strong enough to take over any significant portion of the galaxy, and because of the many factions, are very unlikely to work together.

The combination of a Black Crusade+massive Daemon assisstance could overwhelm the Tyranids and wipe them out, at least until the main fleet arrives. If one "race" (the CSM's) were to pull out of the galaxy, gather strength, and then go for a huge push, they could overwhlem the galaxy quite quickly.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:And risk another AI rebellion? Did you even read the thread I created that had that little comic showing that AI and it terrifying capability to subvert tech and you want to create that again?
The Emp and the Admech both agreed on the issue of NO AI which means that the war with the Iron men was terrible and helped weaken humanity to be hit with the crippling strike of the Warp storms and psykers appearing everywhere.

Yes, I did, and it was a great short story/comic. I really enjoyed it.

Thinking something will happen because a similar situation ended a certain way is a logical fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

Your argument is not viable.

t says that they were eliminated, not driven away, they were eliminated. Extermination is still extermination no matter what way you cut it so get over it.

So, the Reek were willing to join the Tau, and the Tau said no and systematically killed them all?

Maybe they did, but you and I can't know that. You can assume all you want to make the situation fit your argument, but until their is more information on the situation, no one can say what happened.

I said you to talk to the guy cause he would be a friendly face compared to me but if you don't want that, thats okay.

Why would he be a friendly face? Because he likes the Tau? Who I like shouldn't alter my interpretation of what I the text says. If it does I'm doing it wrong.

The Mechanicum weren't ruled by the Emperor? Oh, no, yes they were, they just called him the Omnissah. per lexicanum: "While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence" (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus). They take orders from the HLoT and the Inquisition, just like everyone else in the Inquisition, because they are part of the Imperium.

Bzzt, fail! From your link:

While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence. Due to the great amount of power it wields, the Adeptus Mechanicus is [b]more like an allied empire than an organisation within the Imperium[/b].

Please read what you post, and comprehend what it says. "More like an allied empire", means it isn't an allied Empire. It is a part of the IoM.

Next about the High-Lords and the Inquistion:
HLoT: Do you understand how a council works? Everyone in the Council is part of the Council, and thus bound to the decisions made by the whole. The Mechanicum could withdraw from the HLoT and IoM, sure, but in order to do so, it has to be a part of the IoM and HLot first. Thanks for proving my point.

The Inquisition draws its power from the Emperor, who is also the Omnissiah (coincidentally the Mechanicum's God), so they do have authority over everyone. Whether or not they obey is a seperate matter entirely.

The High Lords

A High Lord of Terra

The following nine offices are almost always represented as High Lords:

The Master of the Administratum
The Inquisitorial Representativea
The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum

The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus

The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites
The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators
The Master of the Astronomican
The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum
The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica

This is from here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/High_Lords_of_Terra#.Ttscs7KMhBY

So, how is the Mechanicus taking orders from the High-Lords when infact they are a member of the High-Lords?

How does a council work?

Finally, the Inquisition's power is not unlimited. If you read the fluff, you would know this that they have to deal with their peers in the Imperium, ex: Space Marine Chapters, Adeptus Mechanicus etc, diplomatically. Also, the Emp doesn't rule the Mehchanicus anymore they do their own thing now.

Their authority is unlimited, as they enforce the will of God. Whether or not you comply with God doesn't change what legal authority the Inquisition does have.

All of this is neat, it shows that The mechanichum needs the Imperium, and vice-a-versa. Great stuff for my point, that they are one single entity that would fail without the other.

How about more proof:

Dark Heresy rpg: Ascension pg 178-179 wrote:The Adeptus Mechanicus

The servants of the Machine God exist as a nigh autonomous
class within the multitude of the Emperor’s servants. They
consider themselves outside of many of the laws that govern
most of Humanity, and they openly deny many of the teachings
of the Ecclesiarchy. Despite that this vast, ancient and highly
secretive organisation appears to so openly reject the mores of
the Imperium, it is ubiquitous. The reason for this is that the
Imperium simply could not function without the Priesthood of
Mars—all of Mankind’s accomplishments would crumble and
fall within a generation were the Tech-Priests to not maintain
them. Without them, no space ship would ply the void, no
army march to war, no raw material be refined and nothing
more than a stone hovel be constructed.

That shows that the Imperium need the Mechanicus more than the Mechanicus need the Imperium.

Also this:

Dark Heresy rpg: Ascension pg 179 wrote:There are uncounted records of confrontation between
Inquisitors and members of the Adeptus Mechanicus. To date,
such battles have largely been confined to small skirmishes
fought between bitter rivals, and have rarely flared up into
open conflict between larger numbers of either organisation.
Indeed, the Inquisition relies upon the services of the Adeptus
Mechanicus as much as any other organisation, and so great
pains are often taken to ensure personal conflict between
individual Inquisitors and Tech-Priests does not escalate into
something more damaging. Despite this, many within the
Inquisition resent the attitudes of the Adeptus Mechanicus,
while many Tech-Priests begrudge interference from
the Inquisition.

It shows that the Inquisition and the Mechanicus fight each other from time to time and the Inquisition actually does everything they can to prevent a full-scale conflict to erupt between them and the Mechanicus cause they too need the Adeptus Mechanicus

Lastly, there is a nice quote from the rpg's that has a Tech-Priest that has turned from the Imperium who makes a nice speech to an Inquisitor that the Adeptus Mechanicus will survive long after the Imperium crumbles to dust.

Dark Heresy rpg: The Inquisitor's Handbook pg 146 wrote:“Foolish meat-puppet! You preen and prance before a pathetic
would-be god kept alive only by our arts! You blind yourself
with your talk of heresies and your ineffectual fumblings at
keeping the aether at bay, and for what? You know nothing!
You are nothing! If you had the slightest inkling of the true
patterns of reality you would crawl away and hide! We of the
Mechanicum are, were and shall be. We existed long before
your vain Imperium and we shall remain after it is naught but
cinder ash!”

— The Renegade Magos Malygris, Vox recording
recovered from the body of Inquisitor Balliol.

Yeah, its not from an Omniscient viewpoint but still every interesting .

CpatTom wrote:
Yes, I did, and it was a great short story/comic. I really enjoyed it.

Thinking something will happen because a similar situation ended a certain way is a logical fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

Your argument is not viable.

Take it up with GW, The Emperor and the Mechanicus then. Cause current evidence shows that making sentient AI is a bad, bad idea.

Maybe they did, but you and I can't know that. You can assume all you want to make the situation fit your argument, but until their is more information on the situation, no one can say what happened.

The link pretty much stated that they were eliminated. Why? I don't know but that was an extermination war in that they wanted the cleanse the system of Reek. End of story.

Why would he be a friendly face? Because he likes the Tau? Who I like shouldn't alter my interpretation of what I the text says. If it does I'm doing it wrong.

Yes, a friendly face compared to me.

Please read what you post, and comprehend what it says. "More like an allied empire", means it isn't an allied Empire. It is a part of the IoM.

No its you who has to fic your reading comprehension cause of this:

While the Adeptus Mechanicus is a part of the Imperium, it has developed separately and enjoys a considerable degree of independence. Due to the great amount of power it wields, the Adeptus Mechanicus is more like an allied empire than an organisation within the Imperium.

Notice the 'than'. The Mechanicus are part of the Imperium but not in the sense that they are subordinate; they are allied to the Imperium forged by treaties that ensure their sovereignthy from direct rule by the Imperium. The Mechanicus rule themselves but use their position as leaders of the Imperium and as utterly important to the survival of the Imperium to enforce their rules of stagnation on the Imperium and again cause of how important they are, people go along with it not that they like it.

Next about the High-Lords and the Inquistion:
HLoT: Do you understand how a council works? Everyone in the Council is part of the Council, and thus bound to the decisions made by the whole. The Mechanicum could withdraw from the HLoT and IoM, sure, but in order to do so, it has to be a part of the IoM and HLot first. Thanks for proving my point.

No, thanks for proving my point. The Mechanicus are the ones responsible for imposing the failing tech level on the Imperium, the Emperor wanted tech to advance in all areas but AI. Also, you don't seem to understand how politics work in the Imperium. They claim that all they do is in the name of the Emperor when it actually isn't.

The Inquisition draws its power from the Emperor, who is also the Omnissiah (coincidentally the Mechanicum's God), so they do have authority over everyone. Whether or not they obey is a seperate matter entirely.

No the Inquisition theoretically has unlimited power, practically they don't.

How does a council work?

Doesn't mean they take orders from the council like lapdogs cause the leader of the Mechanicus is a member of the council. They try and make decisions based on input fro the various members and intelligence(whether the input or whatever data is accurate or inaccurate is another matter entirely).

Their authority is unlimited, as they enforce the will of God. Whether or not you comply with God doesn't change what legal authority the Inquisition does have.

The Catholic church, IIRC, stated that all it did over the period of the Dark Ages of Europe and beyond was done by the will of god. This still didn't stop the various christian leaders from snubbing the church and telling it to frak off.

Fluff is very clear on this matter, the Inquisition doesn't have unlimited power, get over it!

Hell, Dark Heresy has an Inquisitor who believes that the Emp is dead, the Imperium and thus humanity is doomed and Chaos will reign supreme.

All of this is neat, it shows that The mechanichum needs the Imperium, and vice-a-versa. Great stuff for my point, that they are one single entity that would fail without the other.


Yeah, and I'm sure the Tau think they'll last longer than the Imperium. One fast well placed Nid fleet and all those "The Tau will rule the galaxy one day" guys would be wrong.
One void dragon/necron awakening, and What now? (still interesting nonetheless)

*facepalm*

I will reiterate again! The Imperium needs the Mechanicus more than the Mechanicus needs the Imperium. They are allied due to the treaties forged all those years ago but since that time the Mechanicus have gained a lot of power and now enforce stagnation upon the Imperium. Hell if a fellow 40ker on SB is right; the Fabricator General of Mars has an entire closet of STC tech and Mechanicus tech kept hidden on Mars that if were ever released would help the Imperium a lot. But the Mechanicus won't do that cause they're douches!

Is the Mechanicum part of the Imperium of Man?

My point is the Inquisition has theoretical power over everyone, including the Mechanicum. Thats all I said. I never said they could enforce it. Does the Inquisition have theoretical power over the Mechanicum?

Enforcement is another matter entirely, and the Inquisition can not enforce it. I agree with that 100%.

Per the 4th ed Tau codex. pg. 42 Aun'Va Entry: "His presence gave the Fire caste the will to rid the Si'coa system of the hateful Reek, his words sending them into a righteous rage". Are you going to say that rid means to systematically and deliberately expunge?

The STC's are hoarded by certain Forgeworlds in order to increase the importance of that Forgeworld. So it it very likely that the Fabricator General has lots and lots of STC's stashed away.

The passage about the reek is so vague. You can draw all kinds of conclusions from it. Unless the reek show up again, we won't know anything about them. We don't even know if they are actually sentient or if they are in fact a they and not an it.

CpatTom wrote:Is the Mechanicum part of the Imperium of Man?

Kind of.

My point is the Inquisition has theoretical power over everyone, including the Mechanicum. Thats all I said. I never said they could enforce it. Does the Inquisition have theoretical power over the Mechanicum?

Enforcement is another matter entirely, and the Inquisition can not enforce it. I agree with that 100%.

All that matters is practicality not theoretical.

Per the 4th ed Tau codex. pg. 42 Aun'Va Entry: "His presence gave the Fire caste the will to rid the Si'coa system of the hateful Reek, his words sending them into a righteous rage". Are you going to say that rid means to systematically and deliberately expunge?

You own post says "the will to rid"

The STC's are hoarded by certain Forgeworlds in order to increase the importance of that Forgeworld. So it it very likely that the Fabricator General has lots and lots of STC's stashed away.

Thats why I said that the Mechanicus is responsible for the Imperium's stagnation due to the Mechanicus being douches.

nomotog wrote:The passage about the reek is so vague. You can draw all kinds of conclusions from it. Unless the reek show up again, we won't know anything about them. We don't even know if they are actually sentient or if they are in fact a they and not an it.

Lexicanum says this:

The Reek2-p42, also known as the Noisome Reek, are a race of aliens that form part of the Worldweave of the Noisome Reek, a fledgling empire that is beginning to conquer Imperium space.1-p119

Among noted engagements with Mankind included with members of the Arcadius dynasty of Rogue Traders. A voidswarm of Reek encountered the forces of Abad of the Arcadius at the Battle of Ghallenburg. Abad managed to battle the Reek and single-handedly managed to stem the tide of the xeno interface vessels as they made planetfall.3

Members of this race are known to had occupied the Si'coa system that fell under the dominion of the Tau Empire. This was until the arrival of Aun'Va who instilled within the Fire Warriors a righteous rage which they turned against the hateful Reek which led to them being eliminated at Si'coa.2-p42

Make up your own conclusion. I have already done so.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Kind of.

Well, thats conclusive. I'll help you out. Yes they are. No "kind of" about it.

All that matters is practicality not theoretical.

Except, if the Inquisition has authority over the Mechanicum, then the Mechanicum are part of the IoM.

You own post says "the will to rid"

Rid, verb: 1. Make someone or something free of (a troublesome or unwanted person or thing): "rid the world of nuclear weapons".
2. Be freed or relieved from. Where does that say xenocide?

Thats why I said that the Mechanicus is responsible for the Imperium's stagnation due to the Mechanicus being douches.

Not disagreeing here, supporting your point. I don't have any sources, but I do believe you are correct on the thought that STC's are hoarded.

Make up your own conclusion. I have already done so.

Per the 4th ed Tau codex. pg. 42 Aun'Va Entry: "His presence gave the Fire caste the will to rid the Si'coa system of the hateful Reek, his words sending them into a righteous rage". This is what the Lexicanum cites as the source for that. This takes precedence.

As long as you are admitting you are making up your conclusions though