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CpatTom wrote: Well, thats conclusive. I'll help you out. Yes they are. No "kind of" about it.
No, its kind of. Cause of the Mechanicus wanted to, they could destroy the Imperium. They have a monopoly over Imperial technology, they are part of the Imperium leadership. You make it sound like they are subordinate to the Imperium which is false.
Except, if the Inquisition has authority over the Mechanicum, then the Mechanicum are part of the IoM.
The Inquisition has no true authority over the Mechanicus so again fail.
Rid, verb: 1. Make someone or something free of (a troublesome or unwanted person or thing): "rid the world of nuclear weapons". 2. Be freed or relieved from. Where does that say xenocide?
Read the kink. It said eliminate and the Reek are a sentient race so again fail.
Not disagreeing here, supporting your point. I don't have any sources, but I do believe you are correct on the thought that STC's are hoarded.
Glad we could agree.
Per the 4th ed Tau codex. pg. 42 Aun'Va Entry: "His presence gave the Fire caste the will to rid the Si'coa system of the hateful Reek, his words sending them into a righteous rage". This is what the Lexicanum cites as the source for that. This takes precedence.
As long as you are admitting you are making up your conclusions though
Am I making wrong conclusion? Or are you just ignoring evidence cause it mars your idea of Tau mary sueness ;-)? The quote gives the impression that the Reek, which to be frank is an insulting name for a race, from a star-system which could mean any number of things, one of them meaning eliminated.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/12/03 22:17:19
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Something the lexicanum says on the internet is more right than the Codex that it cites as the source? The source is right, the Lexicanum is wrong. The Tau rid the system of Reek: The Reek could have been forced out of the system. They could have also been violently hunted down and murdered as they slept. Given that I have no information on what the situation is, I won't make anything up.
I make it sound like they are a part of the IoM, because they are. And you dont think the Mechanicum would fold in a war against the rest of the IoM. How would they be getting the raw materials, food stuffs or manpower Imperial Technology requires to make viable warfare. Oh, right, they'd use their AI.
CpatTom wrote:Something the lexicanum says on the internet is more right than the Codex that it cites as the source? The source is right, the Lexicanum is wrong. The Tau rid the system of Reek: The Reek could have been forced out of the system. They could have also been violently hunted down and murdered as they slept. Given that I have no information on what the situation is, I won't make anything up.
Oh calm down. I did put a wink icon of this ;-) . I will be checking out the book soon just in case so you better not be lying . Heh, heh. I agree however that the fluff is very vague but it does give an impression that the Tau did naughty things .
I make it sound like they are a part of the IoM, because they are. And you dont think the Mechanicum would fold in a war against the rest of the IoM.
Who has the collection of STC tech? Not the Imperium but the Mechanicus. Who are the ones who create and maintain the technology? Not the Imperium, but the Mechanicus of course.
I dispute you making it sound like the Mechanicus are the subordinate of the Imperium when that is false. They are part of the leadership of the Imperium and the ones who have a stranglehold on Imperium tech.
How would they be getting the raw materials, food stuffs or manpower Imperial Technology requires to make viable warfare. Oh, right, they'd use their AI.
The Mechanicus have their own fleet. The Mechanicus have entire star-systems under their control. They don't use sentient AI but machine spirits which are low-level AI or AI based on animal thought patterns, whichever makes the most sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/03 22:37:46
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Oh calm down. I did put a wink icon of this ;-) . I will be checking out the book soon just in case so you better not be lying . Heh, heh. I agree however that the fluff is very vague but it does give an impression that the Tau did naughty things .
No doubt they did naughty things. This is 40k. The Tau have just been good about cleaning up after themselves.
Who has the collection of STC tech? Not the Imperium but the Mechanicus. Who are the ones who create and maintain the technology? Not the Imperium, but the Mechanicus of course.
I dispute you making it sound like the Mechanicus are the subordinate of the Imperium when that is false. They are part of the leadership of the Imperium and the ones who have a stranglehold on Imperium tech.
Not subordinate to the IoM. Subordinate to the Emperor (In theory, thus subordinate to the =I=, again, in theory, until the Golden Sarcophagus does some major voodoo zombie magic these will be largely unenforcable).
I think it fair to consider a war between the Mechanicum and the rest of the Imperium (Custodes, Astartes, IG, Navy, etc) would not end well for either.
]The Mechanicus have their own fleet. The Mechanicus have entire star-systems under their control. They don't use sentient AI but machine spirits which are low-level AI or AI based on animal thought patterns, whichever makes the most sense.
Higher and Lower AI are interesting philosophical topics, which leads to all sorts of bs like the existence of free will etc. Which are way to complex to be fun to talk about on a 40k forum.
CpatTom wrote: No doubt they did naughty things. This is 40k. The Tau have just been good about cleaning up after themselves.
Just read the book and the quote you posted is accurate. It really is vague and can gives all kinds of implications
Not subordinate to the IoM. Subordinate to the Emperor (In theory, thus subordinate to the =I=, again, in theory, until the Golden Sarcophagus does some major voodoo zombie magic these will be largely unenforcable).
Which is what I've been saying all along. Because of that situation the Mechanicus are pretty much independent.
I think it fair to consider a war between the Mechanicum and the rest of the Imperium (Custodes, Astartes, IG, Navy, etc) would not end well for either.
I think the Mechanicus would have a great advantage in that all tech in the Imperium needs them to be repaired, built, experimented on etc. They could do a lot of damage to the Imperium using sabotage alone. I believe that the Imperium would be the one to suffer the most.
Higher and Lower AI are interesting philosophical topics, which leads to all sorts of bs like the existence of free will etc. Which are way to complex to be fun to talk about on a 40k forum.
Agreed .
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Just read the book and the quote you posted is accurate. It really is vague and can gives all kinds of implications
Hopefully the new codex will expand this bit of fluff. I am not going to hold my breath for answers or clarification from GW though. Haha.
Which is what I've been saying all along. Because of that situation the Mechanicus are pretty much independent.
That's where I have my issue: independent. I think the Mechnicus wields an incredible amount of authority within the IoM; however, I don't think any element of the IoM capable of escaping the political quagmire that has risen to power with the internment of the Emperor.
I think the Mechanicus would have a great advantage in that all tech in the Imperium needs them to be repaired, built, experimented on etc. They could do a lot of damage to the Imperium using sabotage alone. I believe that the Imperium would be the one to suffer the most.
Certainly, in a vacuum I think I the Mechanicus would have the best opportunity for continued existence after a conflict between IoM factions.
Certainly in the setting though: a war between the two kills both by weakening themselves in a galaxy full of Xenos, Heretics and Mutants bent on the extermination of Humanity. (Think how good the Greater Good starts to sound when the IoM fractures! Gue'vesa everywhere .
CpatTom wrote:Hopefully the new codex will expand this bit of fluff. I am not going to hold my breath for answers or clarification from GW though. Haha.
That's where I have my issue: independent. I think the Mechnicus wields an incredible amount of authority within the IoM; however, I don't think any element of the IoM capable of escaping the political quagmire that has risen to power with the internment of the Emperor.
A political quagmire they themselves created. Also, humans were just being humans.
Certainly, in a vacuum I think I the Mechanicus would have the best opportunity for continued existence after a conflict between IoM factions.
Glad you agree with me .
Certainly in the setting though: a war between the two kills both by weakening themselves in a galaxy full of Xenos, Heretics and Mutants bent on the extermination of Humanity. (Think how good the Greater Good starts to sound when the IoM fractures! Gue'vesa everywhere .
Never going to happen cause the galaxy will fall to Chaos or us Orks first .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/06 14:00:50
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
I feel that the God Emperor will eventually die and the Imperium will break into an even bigger mess of disorganized groups, but this time with large warring factions.
The big, main enemies of the IoM will take advantage of the chaos and gain some sizable chunks of space for their species.
Then the Imperium eventually quells the infighting and becomes even more depressing and repressed than before.
Speaking of which, I wish they'd move the story forward. :|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/08 19:14:06
WAAAGH! Rokstog: 1000pts. About three-fourths painted.
- HURR 70pts
- Eventually
I'd say that the Imperium is definitely doomed and I say that because of the lack of education. You notice in the codex that many variants of tanks and technology is dying out, science being replaced by superstition. Machine Spirits? chyea right, but the people don't know better. This stagnation of technology and thought is killing the human race's chances of survival. In the core worlds, all the populace is taught is to love the emperor. In the worlds with conflict, all the populace is taught is how to fight with poor tactician leaders, and to love the emperor. The Empire will fall, just because it will get to a point where all technology becomes a giant mystery and without free thought and innovation, there will be no way to gain it back without backtracking thousands and thousands of years, and by then, it'll be too late.
So you told the SD boy to stay classy. I'm sure he's NEVER heard that one....
SoliderSnake wrote:I'd say that the Imperium is definitely doomed and I say that because of the lack of education. You notice in the codex that many variants of tanks and technology is dying out, science being replaced by superstition. Machine Spirits? chyea right, but the people don't know better. This stagnation of technology and thought is killing the human race's chances of survival. In the core worlds, all the populace is taught is to love the emperor. In the worlds with conflict, all the populace is taught is how to fight with poor tactician leaders, and to love the emperor. The Empire will fall, just because it will get to a point where all technology becomes a giant mystery and without free thought and innovation, there will be no way to gain it back without backtracking thousands and thousands of years, and by then, it'll be too late.
Humans survive by adapting. Throughout history, any society that has not adapted has failed (see the middle ages/"dark" ages) and imploded on itself. The Imperium is headed for destruction not only at the hands of their enemies, but also at the hands of those humans who want to be free.
Humanity will not fall completely. They will fracture into groups. Those that do not adapt to their enemies will fall, and fall hard.
Croaker wrote:I feel that the God Emperor will eventually die and the Imperium will break into an even bigger mess of disorganized groups, but this time with large warring factions.
The big, main enemies of the IoM will take advantage of the chaos and gain some sizable chunks of space for their species.
Then the Imperium eventually quells the infighting and becomes even more depressing and repressed than before.
Speaking of which, I wish they'd move the story forward. :|
No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (Him being the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
One theory, dude, and not a widespread one these days
That fluff has been prettyy thoroughly buried and semi-retconned as being the machinations of Tzeentch
That said, it might happen, but it's not a definite If it does, it's 'just as planned '
*edit for spelling etc*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/11 05:20:03
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
182nd Ebon Hawks - 2000 Points
"We descend upon them like lightning from a cloudless sky."
Va'Krata Sept - 2500 Points
"The barbarian Gue'la deserve nothing but a swift death in a shallow grave."
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
I agree. The Emperor is far, far more likely to make their little heads explode than he is to accept them as anything other than mass-murdering lunatics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/11 06:39:19
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
Ascalam wrote:One theory, dude, and not a widespread one these days
That fluff has been prettyy thoroughly buried and semi-retconned as being the machinations of Tzeentch
That said, it might happen, but it's not a definite If it does, it's 'just as planned '
*edit for spelling etc*
I'm pretty sure that the cleansing of the 'star child cult' was a cover-up of those in the know to prevent those not supposed to know from catching on. The Emperor Himself admitted as much to Draco that He was forced to cast out the spirit of goodness, compassion, hope when He destroyed Horus (and apparently the Emperor regretted this), and that spirit guided Draco to the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KplKeegan wrote:
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
You really think the Astartes will fight against the Emperor? The Astartes dislike the Administratum, even the loyalists during the Heresy, and they only accept the Administratum because the Emperor entrusted it with the Imperium's governance. And the Emperor knows what the Inquisition does, after all, He holds audiences with the Ordo Malleus' Inner Circle periodically.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/11 07:28:04
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Possibly, possibly not As it stands though they've not even touched the Star Child thing since 2nd ed, except to purge it in the 3rd ed rulebook, at least in official codex/rulebook fluff (as far as I'm aware). BL is possibly different, but is also non-canon (unless you want to accept all the contradictions as simultaneously true ).
Having a spirit portion floating around as a celestial usher isn't quite the same as being born again as a god He is nothing BUT spirit (and a rotting corpse on death-support) in any case, right now.
Astartes fighting the emperor?
That's never happened before. Gods forbid *heavy sarcasm *
They might. If nothing else, they might consider him to be a Chaos ploy, not the Real Thing...
The Malleus claim to hear him. Who's going to call them a liar and live?
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
Ascalam wrote:One theory, dude, and not a widespread one these days
That fluff has been prettyy thoroughly buried and semi-retconned as being the machinations of Tzeentch
That said, it might happen, but it's not a definite If it does, it's 'just as planned '
*edit for spelling etc*
I'm pretty sure that the cleansing of the 'star child cult' was a cover-up of those in the know to prevent those not supposed to know from catching on. The Emperor Himself admitted as much to Draco that He was forced to cast out the spirit of goodness, compassion, hope when He destroyed Horus (and apparently the Emperor regretted this), and that spirit guided Draco to the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KplKeegan wrote:
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
You really think the Astartes will fight against the Emperor? The Astartes dislike the Administratum, even the loyalists during the Heresy, and they only accept the Administratum because the Emperor entrusted it with the Imperium's governance. And the Emperor knows what the Inquisition does, after all, He holds audiences with the Ordo Malleus' Inner Circle periodically.
I created a civil war thread several months ago. Many thought that humanity would just fall in line behind the emperor. That is naive at best. The Horus heresy proved that wrong quite effectively.
The high lords would be likely to turn traitor before giving up the power that has likely been theirs for decades if not many times more. Then this would start a Dominoes effect. High lords being the most realistic leader to any imperial citizen now for thousands of years would turn entire systems against the IoM. Most people are most likely ready to die for the emperor these days because they would be killed if they don't. With the threat of the inquisition gone I think the amount of rebels would be surprising.
- -
Obviously the emperor would have control of the most important forces, the space marines. However the large amount of new traitors would definitely welcome the support of their new chaos space marine friends. Unlikely before however now they are faced with certain defeat if they do not join the forces of chaos. People have turned traitor for much less before.....
Now before the CSM's could help their new traitor high lords out. They would need help first....... Cadia would have to fall. I believe this would be the first major act of treason from the new traitor forces in the civil war. Abbadon would now the thorn that is Cadia removed from his side and have unbridled access to real space. Before you know it, the emperor coming back was what the IoM wanted as a whole, now it has split the imperium in two.
Not to mention the countless opportunities to expand every enemy of the imperium now has.......
"Strike first, strike hard, no mercy." "We are judged in life by the evil we destroy." "I am going to drastically thin the enemies ranks."
Ascalam wrote:One theory, dude, and not a widespread one these days
That fluff has been prettyy thoroughly buried and semi-retconned as being the machinations of Tzeentch
That said, it might happen, but it's not a definite If it does, it's 'just as planned '
*edit for spelling etc*
I'm pretty sure that the cleansing of the 'star child cult' was a cover-up of those in the know to prevent those not supposed to know from catching on. The Emperor Himself admitted as much to Draco that He was forced to cast out the spirit of goodness, compassion, hope when He destroyed Horus (and apparently the Emperor regretted this), and that spirit guided Draco to the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KplKeegan wrote:
Tadashi wrote:No, when the Golden Throne fails, the Star Child (which embodies the part of the Emperor He cast out of Himself when he obliterated Horus) will rejoin the Emperor and restore Him. The Emperor will then set aside both the High Lords and the Imperial Creed, restoring direct rule and the Imperial Truth. This will spark a civil war, but I'm certain that all Astartes Chapters will join the Emperor, as they have no love for the Ecclesiarchy and swore allegiance to the Emperor, not to the Administratum or the High Lords. The Mechanicus will also join the Emperor (thinking He is the Omnissiah and all), having also no love for the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium's enemies will probably take advantage of it, but with the Emperor back (not to mention Russ and the Lion returning), we can reconquer all lost territory soon enough. The Sisters on Terra will join the Emperor, and the other Sisters once the Emperor speaks with them. The Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos will throw their support with the Emperor because of their affiliation with the Astartes. Once the Imperial Truth is restored, we can launch a new and even greater Great Crusade.
Ah, wishfull thinking. Deep, delusional, wishfull thinking. Especially with the Inquisition magically joining the Emperor and not being wiped off the face of Terra when the Emperor finds out what they've been doing to his faithful subjects.
You really think the Astartes will fight against the Emperor? The Astartes dislike the Administratum, even the loyalists during the Heresy, and they only accept the Administratum because the Emperor entrusted it with the Imperium's governance. And the Emperor knows what the Inquisition does, after all, He holds audiences with the Ordo Malleus' Inner Circle periodically.
I created a civil war thread several months ago. Many thought that humanity would just fall in line behind the emperor. That is naive at best. The Horus heresy proved that wrong quite effectively.
The high lords would be likely to turn traitor before giving up the power that has likely been theirs for decades if not many times more. Then this would start a Dominoes effect. High lords being the most realistic leader to any imperial citizen now for thousands of years would turn entire systems against the IoM. Most people are most likely ready to die for the emperor these days because they would be killed if they don't. With the threat of the inquisition gone I think the amount of rebels would be surprising. - - Obviously the emperor would have control of the most important forces, the space marines. However the large amount of new traitors would definitely welcome the support of their new chaos space marine friends. Unlikely before however now they are faced with certain defeat if they do not join the forces of chaos. People have turned traitor for much less before.....
Now before the CSM's could help their new traitor high lords out. They would need help first....... Cadia would have to fall. I believe this would be the first major act of treason from the new traitor forces in the civil war. Abbadon would now the thorn that is Cadia removed from his side and have unbridled access to real space. Before you know it, the emperor coming back was what the IoM wanted as a whole, now it has split the imperium in two.
Not to mention the countless opportunities to expand every enemy of the imperium now has.......
He probably won't disband the High Lords. Just, reorganize them back to their original form, the Council of Terra, with Himself as the head, and the Ecclesiarch off the Council. The Space Marines would always side with the Emperor (loyalist ones obviously), and since the Mechanicus believes the Emperor is the Omnissiah they would be loyal to the Emperor. And the Inquisition will still be there. Malcador formed the Inquisition on the Emperor's orders. The Imperial Truth would be reintroduced slowly, not by force, but by the same method the Emperor used before, by refuting its leaders personally, and re-educating the masses. The Mechanicus would support this, simce their only rival would be eliminated, and as for Abaddon, no offense but he's nothing compared to Horus or a Primarch. He can't really confront the Emperor on equal terms. The Emperor would use His powers to counteract any 'trick' or ploy Erebus and any sorcerer could think of, and once the Emperor arrives at Cadia, any Black Crusade is practically over. I'm not saying it will be done in an instant, maybe a few centuries or a full millennium, and the Imperium's size would be reduced by half at most, but the Emperor's patient, and it can be done.
And while the Star Child was never mentioned again, and was purged (supposedly), as I said before, this was implied to be a cover up by the Inquisition, and the later Codexes never actually stated that the Star Child was non-canon.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/12/11 11:02:42
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote: The Space Marines would always side with the Emperor (loyalist ones obviously), and since the Mechanicus believes the Emperor is the Omnissiah they would be loyal to the Emperor. And the Inquisition will still be there. Malcador formed the Inquisition on the Emperor's orders.
If the Emperor comes back (which is doubtful), he will abolish the Codex Astartes and reform the Legions, congealing the thousands of secondary and terchiary foundings into a single entity. The only problem with this is that almost each Space Marine chapter has forged their proud histories throughout the centuries, but they're forced to eschew their heritage and pride and congeal with other Chapters with almost alien rituals and mannerisms?
The Emperor will not be recieved by as many Space Marines after he reforms the legions. And the Mechanicus will have their own problems when the Void Dragon starts playing around with their stuffs in reckless abandon.
And the Inquisition will be a pale shadow if its former self. Malcador may have formed the Inquisition on the Emperor's Orders, but that does not mean the Inquisition would adhere to it; Political Strife and Genocide marr the colors of the Inquisition, so the Emperor would clean house fantastically and rebuild the Inquisition himself.
I'm not even going to go into the Sisters of Battle territory. They seem a little Lorgar-esque in that regard.
Plus there are the unknown Primarchs to think about...
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As I said it will take time, but the Emperor will reform and adapt the Imperium to current needs. I doubt he'd take a step back historically. It's purely speculation anyway. If the Imperium falls, bang, there goes 40k. So it's not gonna happen, the Imperium will never fall.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
The imperium falling doesnt mean the end of 40k.
The whole game isnt imperial forces, I mean there's still Chaos Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Tau and Tyranids if you outright dropped the imperial forces.
And just because the Imperium falls doesnt mean the Space Marine Chapters would be gone, just more independant and possibly operating in a lesser capacity.
The biggest changes I think would be to sisters and the imperial guard.
Guard becoming more small armies under local rulers and whatnot, or almost mercanary like bands working for new, small empires within the galaxy.
It would create more diverse human races as opposed to the dogmatic Imperial armies there are currently.
I think post-fall would be far more interesting, personally.
Sections of a fallen Imperium, struggling to reconnect and re-expand, cut off from each other, and relying on their own resources and fragments of the Adeptus Mechanicus (or gods forbid some actual human ingenuity...)
Some abandoning the Imperial Creed (E's dead) others maintaining it (he MIGHT be back )
You could have current imperial - hidebound, tech-fetishist religious- and new human - progressive, inventive and atheistic (more like E wanted in the first place, supposedly ; )
Awesome stuff.
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Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
I think the Fall of the Imperium would be one of the best things that could feasibly happen to WH40K. It would progress the story considerably allowing for a MUCH more diverse background and decidedly more interesting armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/11 21:04:49
While I agree it would make things far more interesting fluff and game wise, I can't see GW ever doing it. It's too much change to the core fluff, and would be a huge risk for them financially.
It's widely known the emperor is actually an ork with a REALLY GOOD MASK! So yeah when he's done sleeping he's gonna let his boyz in and everything will be better honest
In all seriousness though I think the return of the emperor would heighten the power of chaos once more actually. Think of it in a sense of dramatics with the rise of a "Neo" so too must the system become more dangerous for everyone but him... Chaos demons drawn to earth from the psychic resonance marines turning like it had with Horus back in the day ect ect ect.
As far is fall? Meh probably but not until GW realizes they could make a killing doing so.
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BLU
. Heh, heh. I agree however that the fluff is very vague but it does give an impression that the Tau did naughty things 
.
"Strike first, strike hard, no mercy." 
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- HURR 70pts
- Eventually 
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