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Emperor for me, biggest tard of the lot.

Lets Lunar Wolves call themselves Sons of Horus.

Makes Fulgrim's huge ego even bigger by letting his legion wear the eagles.

Publicly shames Lorgar in front of another legion rather than just pulling him aside for a little chat.

Rather than go to Istvaan himself allows legions to walk into an obvious trap then says he knew all about it afterwards.

Council of Nikea, wtf? Just because Mortarion was whining about not liking psykers?

Instead of just telling Magnus he's working on the webway and to leave him alone for a while, makes it into a big secret which encourages Magnus to do that teleport thing, then as punishment DESTROYS AN ENTIRE LOYALIST LEGION and puts another too far away to be useful during a galaxy wide civil war.

Uses Kurze to destroy worlds then tells him off, but lets Russ get away with it.

Lets Corax leave Terra with the most powerful machine in the universe to return to a poorly defended homeworld and despite being the most powerful psyker EVA can't tell that the Raven Guard have been infiltrated.

Lies to everyone about the existence of chaos so they're completely unprepared.

Gets pwned by Horus and becomes a glorified lighthouse.

TBH the whole flshing out of the Horus Heresy as a 'realistic' storyline has been a big fail despite some individually strong novels and makes all of the primarchs look like spoilt children who went over to chaos on a whim [except Kurze who is just badass].

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers.

Wait, WHAT??? Utter reading comprehension FAIL. It's the Emperor who's the liar here. Basically the Emperor is waging a galaxy-wide war of conquest to forcibly convert the entire human race to a belief system that the Emperor himself knows is a lie from the very beginning. How do you think Lorgar's going react when he figures out that the Emperor chastised and humiliated him for not believing something that Emperor himself knew wasn't true? I'd kind of expect him to be somewhat disillusioned, wouldn't you?

Chaos doesn't corrupt people by lying, it corrupts them by telling them the truth. It's just that in 40k (or 30k) the truth is so horrible that to know it is to be damned. And that's the grimdark.

The good news is, I was busy this weekend so your ramblings got to sit unattended for a few days.

The bad news is, I don't think anyone is every going to accuse you of having a graduate degree in comparative literature, lol.

You are partially correct (something about broken clocks comes to mind). The Emperor's vision is based on lies. This is very obvious and deliberate, as the Imperium's Great Crusade is very certainly based on the kinds of closed minded philosophies that drove Roman expansionism, European Colonialism, American Manifest Destiny, etc. An " our way or the highway" if you will.


The problem you run into (at full speed, face first), is that you assume everything is polarized. If one side is lying, the other side must be telling the truth. I'm going to put it into pictures for you:
Take a second and figure out what those things have in common.

At any rate, no, it's not the case. In this situation, much like in real life, everyone is lying. The Emperor lies. But that doesn't meant Chaos is telling the truth. They're the biggest liars of them all. And they straight up lied to Lorgar. Manipulations of the truth are lies. You do realize that right? Right? However, your failure here isn't just an inability to analyze content, but to also recognize context. Some of the things they told Lorgar were true. But that doesn't mean that all of the things they said were true. The Emperor certainly told the truth in many things too, lol.

Regardless, Lorgar was a chump. He was the first pawn in Chaos's game. But he was never more than that. The Ruinous Powers knew that Lorgar was the weakest of the primarchs (physically, mentally, and emotionally) and the easiest to convert. And once they had done that, they could use him to help pollute some of his brothers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Come on man. Lorgar sucked at math. You should be better.

The first thing he says to Lorgar is that for every truth, he has to tell one lie. He then tells him that in this case, he only will tell the truth.

One truth: For every truth, tell one lie.
One lie: This time I'm only telling the truth.


Lorgar was a sucker.

Which is a clever interpretation, of course, but we know BL is not that subtle. Plus, that's not what really happened, considering they had a lengthy conversation. And the fact that with Kairos, it's always one head speaking the truth and one speaking lies, leaving it up to you to figure out which is which. In this case, however, both heads spoke with one voice.

Some Black Library authors maybe, but I think you're not giving them enough credit.

Besides, this gak isn't subtle, lol. It's a borrowed plot element from the movie Labyrinth with David Bowie and Jennifer Connely, lol.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Regardless, Lorgar was a chump. He was the first pawn in Chaos's game. But he was never more than that. The Ruinous Powers knew that Lorgar was the weakest of the primarchs (physically, mentally, and emotionally) and the easiest to convert. And once they had done that, they could use him to help pollute some of his brothers.

Yup, so physically weak he beat An'ggrath in single combat and walked away from it. I believe Sanguinius had trouble fighting Ka'Bandha to the point where he got both his legs broken and was nearly killed. Yeah, Lorgar is pretty weak alright. He's also so weak mentally that he was only able to completely convert every planet he conquered to the worship of the Emperor no matter what the culture was before just by speaking to them. How lame. And he's so weak emotionally that he stood before the Emperor and demanded the truth, when all others would not dare question the Emperor. Lorgar had to be driven to his knees by the psychic might of the Emperor himself because he would not back down from his beliefs when the Emperor refused to tell him the whole truth. Yeah, man, Lorgar is utterly pathetic.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Some Black Library authors maybe, but I think you're not giving them enough credit.

Besides, this gak isn't subtle, lol. It's a borrowed plot element from the movie Labyrinth with David Bowie and Jennifer Connely, lol.

The books themselves speak against you, as well as others on this forum. Later on, more books with Lorgar and dealings with the Primordial Truth will also prove you wrong. Chaos isn't lying to Lorgar; the Chaos gods are worthy of worship to those who deem them worthy of worship, and so it becomes true. There are gods because people believe them to be gods, and so it becomes true. Everything is based on Faith in 40k, hell even the Orks have to believe their stuff will work in order for it to actually work. Lorgar accepted their Truth because it gave him purity of purpose, something he lacked once the Emperor denounced him. You may call it weakness, or a character flaw, but the Emperor himself programmed the need for Faith in Lorgar, just as he put other aspects of himself into the other Primarchs. It just happened to massively backfire on him this time.

But they aren't against me homey. No matter how many times you (or other morons on the forum?) repeat that, it won't become true. I told you to re-read the scene from Aurelian. I gave you the chance. Your failure to read into the context that's right in front of you is your problem, not mine.

I hate to break your heart homey, but I actually had a conversation on B&C with A-D-B (you know, the author of Aurelian) and while for obvious reasons he didn't confirm or deny my interpretation, it was fairly obvious that I hit the nail on the head.

Just because there are a lot of poor readers out there (with you counted amongst their ranks) doesn't make me wrong. A thousand high school dropouts could argue with a Nobel Prize Winner. They'd still all be idiots and wrong.

Look, I get that you play Word Bearers, and it means that you want to have an image of them in your mind that they are the awesomestist, but sadly, it isn't the reality. The Word Bearers were the worst of the Legions, accomplishing the least, wasting the most time, and being officially censured for it. Their primarch was an emo whiner who couldn't handle his validation issues and fell to Chaos. The Word Bearers were deemed to be completely expendable, and Horus sacrificed them against the Ultramarines because he had to figure out a way to neutralize the thread from Guilliman's legion while losing the least possible. Since the Word Bearers were the least experienced of the Legions, and their Primarch the poorest leader, they were the obvious choice. The fact that they hated the Ultramarines only helped. But Horus knew that they had little to no chance of beating the Ultramarines, but had also judged their loss to be the least damaging to his cause.

The Word Bearers have some cool fluff behind them. I think Lorgar has been pretty well written, and he's a relatively sympathetic character (I mean, who wouldn't react poorly to being chastised by their idol?). But it doesn't mean he isn't weak. Instead of turning that chastisement into something that made him better, he fell into a honeypot trap set by Chaos and was turned pretty easily.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Just because there are a lot of poor readers out there (with you counted amongst their ranks) doesn't make me wrong. A thousand high school dropouts could argue with a Nobel Prize Winner. They'd still all be idiots and wrong.

You mean like Obama? Pretty sure winning a Nobel Prize doesn't automatically make you right. Hell, it doesn't even mean you did anything to deserve it. One must always question what is established to be "true" because it might not actually be true.

Speaking of questioning, you're not even arguing your point anymore, so I'm just going to assuming you ran out of stuff to back up your idea with.

Kor Phaeron nearly kills Guilliman himself, and somehow you don't think that a fully empowered Lorgar would not be able to finish the job? Lorgar nearly killed Fulgrim and forced Horus to back off, but somehow he'd lose to Guilliman. Indeed. Chaos certainly needed to lie to save Lorgar... Or perhaps it was because Chaos actually wanted Lorgar to look at the bigger picture and win the greater battle? Lorgar chose to ignore his personal feelings of hate and his desire for revenge and instead went on to make sure the greater plans of Chaos were carried out. That doesn't sound so weak to me; sounds more like exactly what the High Priest of Chaos Undivided should do.

Feel free to stop me if the weight of logic becomes too much or you run out of cute names to call me and others on the board who disagree with you.

What's there to "need to back up"? Do you assume I carry my copy of Aurelian around with me?

Besides, I have a feeling that even when I quote the passage, you'll just pretend it doesn't say exactly whay it says. I paraphrased it. You know exactly what passage I am talking about, and yet you haven't gone back to the text to quote a passage or passages that defend your argument. I think we can only assume that you never had anything to back up your argument with in the first place except for confirmation bias.

Look. A close reader would have noticed that the confrontation between Lorgar and Guilliman in his vision is almost identical to what ended up actually happening between Kor Phaeron and Guilliman. And yet for some crazy reason, Lorgar was denied the opportunity to see how the confrontation ended in his vision. Why's that? Because Kor Phaeron gloated, and Guilliman gutted him when he let his guard down. Lorgar was gloating and... oh wait. Nevermind. Forgot that you hate contact and deductive reasoning. I wouldn't want to trouble you to think and analyze. Tzeentch knew that Lorgar would blow his opportunity to kill Guilliman, and their newest pet project would be killed or crippled when they needed him most against the Emperor. So his Oracle just lies to Lorgar about how his choice will impact the outcome of the Heresy by convincing him that he will lose the opportunity to bring enlightenment to humanity (oh wait, that didn't happen anyway? Why would the Oracle of the Great Conspirator lie to Lorgar...)

Veteran Sergeant wrote:What's there to "need to back up"? Do you assume I carry my copy of Aurelian around with me?

Besides, I have a feeling that even when I quote the passage, you'll just pretend it doesn't say exactly whay it says. I paraphrased it. You know exactly what passage I am talking about, and yet you haven't gone back to the text to quote a passage or passages that defend your argument. I think we can only assume that you never had anything to back up your argument with in the first place except for confirmation bias.

Look. A close reader would have noticed that the confrontation between Lorgar and Guilliman in his vision is almost identical to what ended up actually happening between Kor Phaeron and Guilliman. And yet for some crazy reason, Lorgar was denied the opportunity to see how the confrontation ended in his vision. Why's that? Because Kor Phaeron gloated, and Guilliman gutted him when he let his guard down. Lorgar was gloating and... oh wait. Nevermind. Forgot that you hate contact and deductive reasoning. I wouldn't want to trouble you to think and analyze. Tzeentch knew that Lorgar would blow his opportunity to kill Guilliman, and their newest pet project would be killed or crippled when they needed him most against the Emperor. So his Oracle just lies to Lorgar about how his choice will impact the outcome of the Heresy by convincing him that he will lose the opportunity to bring enlightenment to humanity (oh wait, that didn't happen anyway? Why would the Oracle of the Great Conspirator lie to Lorgar...)

You assumed I had a copy of Aurelian with me when you told me to reread it, so I assumed you had one as well. And as similar as the vision was, getting the drop on a gloating, modified human in terminator armor is just a tad bit less of an accomplishment than doing the same thing to a super-powered Primarch. Kor Phaeron isn't even an Astartes. Lorgar could still have gone to Calth; Tzeentch doesn't know exactly how things will turn out, just how they're most likely to turn out due to his machinations. Things could always suddenly change, which pleases Tzeentch as much as it pisses him off. But the vision is a moot point because it didn't happen. Tzeentch didn't want it to happen at all, nevermind what the actual outcome was. The point was to show Lorgar what he desired to see, to show his vengeance at hand. It didn't matter the outcome, it only mattered that Lorgar made the choice to go or not to go. He was tempted to find out just how it would end, but Lorgar chose to let it go, giving up his chance for revenge. Just the chance, the idea, the possibility was very tempting.

Heh, it's kinda like how we debate things on here even though much of the time they are merely half-seen visions or vaguely referenced fluff points that have no meaning on the grand scale of things. Or worse, BL is trolling us just to get us into frenzied debates which leads to buying MOAR PLASTIC CRACK!

Well played, GW, BL. Well played.

Surtur wrote:Guilliman deals in fact, Lorgar deals in mysticism.

That would be true, if this was a traditional sci-fi setting. What people seem to be missing is that this isn't a traditional sci-fi setting - it's 40k. And in 40k the universe is completely irrational at its core. The ones who believe in "progress" and "enlightenment" are in fact deluding themselves. So no, Guilliman does not deal in fact. Lorgar's vision of the universe is in fact true. It's Guilliman's vision that is ultimately based on lies. And this is of course illustrated in hilariously grimdark detail over the course of the next 10 thousand years. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE STORY.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Word Bearers were the worst of the Legions, accomplishing the least, wasting the most time, and being officially censured for it.

Yet they somehow managed to pretty much completely destroy the Emperor's grand plan to rule galaxy. Funny that.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Instead of turning that chastisement into something that made him better, he fell into a honeypot trap set by Chaos and was turned pretty easily.

Yet in M40k Lorgar is an immortal demigod while the Emperor is a vegetable. Funny that.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Just because there are a lot of poor readers out there (with you counted amongst their ranks) doesn't make me wrong. A thousand high school dropouts could argue with a Nobel Prize Winner. They'd still all be idiots and wrong.

Wow homey, did you just compare yourself to a Nobel Prize Winner? Keep going, we're listening. I suggest throwing in a few more misogynistic remarks to really get your point across.

Ahh abaddon, thank you for returning to topic.

To Termies question about Sigismund, he was the 1st Captain of the Imperial Fists and (IIRC) during the siege of terra had his armor painted black and went out and kicked the snot out of chaos champions-he then became the 1st High Marshal of the Black Templars.

As for most mock-worthy primarch, I'm not so sure.

These are my general observations

Horus: Failed
Angron-not much I see to mock here, Emps made a bad decision and Angron was Angron
Kurze-Space Batman
Magnus-Arrogant, thought he knew what was in the warp
Mortarion-I don't know too much about him or why he turned
Alpharius/Omegon

Lorgar: Whiny, had anger problems
Peturabo: Not much bad, trolled Lion and Dorn
Fulgrim: Ego got to his head

Gulliman: I liked him in Know No Fear. I find it ironic that he didn't quite realize the place he needed to have when the crusade finished (though by the heresy instead of a victory) when this was one of the things he talked to the Ultramarines about.
Dorn: Too stoic for my liking, should have advised Emps to stay in the palace rather than teleport to Horus' ship
Corax: Doesn't seem like too much to mock, he stuck by his mutated legionaries and went back to the fight under strength.
Lion: Concerned with his own place, too logical
Khan: Genghis Khan in space
Sanguinius: Prettyboy, but liked by others and was a pretty good warrior
Russ: Rash, drunk, but he is a space viking so it comes off as somewhat cool to me
Vulkan: Haven't read too much about him, he does care for the common man though and that counts
Ferrus Manus: Terminator (Arnold kind, as far as won't be stopped yada yada yada) who happens to be a space marine

Based on the fact that his ego was enormous, being a prettyboy, and that I honestly can't stand him or his legion, I think Fulgrim is the most mock-worthy

You do realize that the only Primarch that Alpharius Omegon had a positive relationship with was Horus while the other two they had met (Guilliman and Dorn) were unfriendly and disrespectful to say the least. They also had extraordinarily little contact with the Emperor and thus were pretty much strangers with Daddy. So if you were (one of) them, who would you side with? The only brother who was friendly and held respect for you, or Daddy and two brothers who you are either unfamiliar with or on bad terms with?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Word Bearers were the worst of the Legions, accomplishing the least, wasting the most time, and being officially censured for it.

Yet they somehow managed to pretty much completely destroy the Emperor's grand plan to rule galaxy. Funny that.

They did? I'm fairly sure they were just a small part. Tools. Nothing more.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Instead of turning that chastisement into something that made him better, he fell into a honeypot trap set by Chaos and was turned pretty easily.

Yet in M40k Lorgar is an immortal demigod while the Emperor is a vegetable. Funny that.

An immortal demigod that sits in a room obsessively writing a book he'll never finish and nobody reads, lol. The Emperor may have been mortally wounded by Horus, and yet he's still done more than Lorgar in the last 10,000 years.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Just because there are a lot of poor readers out there (with you counted amongst their ranks) doesn't make me wrong. A thousand high school dropouts could argue with a Nobel Prize Winner. They'd still all be idiots and wrong.

Wow homey, did you just compare yourself to a Nobel Prize Winner? Keep going, we're listening. I suggest throwing in a few more misogynistic remarks to really get your point across.

Compared to some of you, a Nobel Prize Winner might not be drastic enough. However, none of this is personal. The comparison wasn't making me the Nobel Prize Winner. I'm just saying that if 1000 people are wrong and one person is right, the 1000 are still wrong even if there are a lot of them saying the wrong thing all at once.

Why you guys take literary critique so personally, I'll never know. You're not Lorgar. You're not Word Bearers. You're just wargamers and forum goers. If Lorgar is emotionally and mentally weak, it doesn't make you a bad person. If you're getting angry over this, you've got an unhealthy attachment to a fictional character. /shrug I'm not the only one saying Lorgar was weak and whiny. I'm just doing the most convincing job of it because, well, I'm pretty well educated. Sorry if that threatens you.

Lorgar and Magnus are probably internally tormented right now. All they do is brood over the past and future, Lorgar in his chambers (with a sign hanging in the door that reads: "Enter and Die", and Magnus in his tower.

How did this deteriorate to a debate over whether someone can use being a nobel prize winner as an example?

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:How did this deteriorate to a debate over whether someone can use being a nobel prize winner as an example?

Word Bearers players throwing a tantrum again because somebody mentioned Lorgar was a bitch, lol.

Hmm.. this thread is mental. Too many people obsess over their hobby a wee bit it seems.

I agree with VS for my two cents, I thought it wasn't even up for a debate? I mean, I've read loads of HH books, chaos is inherently evil because it is a manifestation of mortals worst emotions, hate and lust and so forth.

Ergo, if you turned to chaos, you fethed up. You swallowed the lies and now the innately evil and malevolent chaos Gods toy with you for their own amusement.

Which means yes, Lorgar is a total feth head and fell for it hook line and sinker, he is a whiny little girl with a complex because his brother Robutte was much more awesome than him.

I think he is the worst Primarch by far, the other guys turned cos of actual reasons, he's just like the fictional embodiment of Jerry Falwell!

mattyrm wrote:Hmm.. this thread is mental. Too many people obsess over their hobby a wee bit it seems.

I agree with VS for my two cents, I thought it wasn't even up for a debate? I mean, I've read loads of HH books, chaos is inherently evil because it is a manifestation of mortals worst emotions, hate and lust and so forth.

Ergo, if you turned to chaos, you fethed up. You swallowed the lies and now the innately evil and malevolent chaos Gods toy with you for their own amusement.

Which means yes, Lorgar is a total feth head and fell for it hook line and sinker, he is a whiny little girl with a complex because his brother Robutte was much more awesome than him.

I think he is the worst Primarch by far, the other guys turned cos of actual reasons, he's just like the fictional embodiment of Jerry Falwell!

This. I seriously have no clue how someone could even want to defend Lorgar. He's like Anakin in the episodes 1-2-3... only way worse...

Holy Necrothread Batman!

Maybe you aren't watching the same thread as me, but this one was updated quite regularly for the last week. Mattyrm's post was made yesterday? Wanna try again?

Squigsquasher wrote:Holy Necrothread Batman!

O_o

This thread isn't even a month old yet and hasn't left the first page...

Umm....

Holy Smeg-up Batman?

Pretty much bro.

I still hold Lorgar over Russ though.

liquidjoshi wrote:Pretty much bro.

I still hold Lorgar over Russ though.

Even Angron was better than that rabid dog. Angron had honor, Russ and his legion backstabbed the Sons at every turn.

I can forgive them for burnig those witches

Redcruisair wrote:I can forgive them for burnig those witches

Backstabbing your brother Primarch and Astartes cousins is inexcusable. Even before the Heresy, at Nikaea, the Wolves turned on the Sons after the Rune Priests gave the Sons the impression that they were allies. How different are those rabid dogs from Horus and the other traitors?

Maybe Russ along with any other anti-psyker thought the TS were a legitimate threat to the empire.
Sorcery has in the past doomed a great many planets, and Russ including Mortarion feared something similar would happen to Magnus and the TS.

Redcruisair wrote:Maybe Russ along with any other anti-psyker thought the TS were a legitimate threat to the empire.
Sorcery has in the past doomed a great many planets, and Russ including Mortarion feared something similar would happen to Magnus and the TS.

The Primarchs were all powerful psykers. Some of them just didn't use their powers, and the Emperor's hand was forced on Nikaea - He never actually wanted to censor Magnus, which was why despite Russ' complaints before Nikaea, the Emperor adamantly refused to censor the Sons. Only when Mortarion and Dorn sided with Russ did the Emperor reluctantly give in. Magnus was His finest student after Horus, and the closest after Horus and Sanguinius. The Golden Throne was built for Magnus, and not for anyone else. It was a gift as great as the position of Warmaster should have been had Horus not trusted Erebus.

Yes this is all true.

A shame really, that Magnus insisted on using dangerous and unclean sorcery, if he had followed the Emperor’s command he could have become the ultimate instrument for mankind’ domination of the galaxy.
Instead he believed that he was all knowing and that the warp was his to command… You see the problem here?

"The Primarchs were all powerful psykers."

Were did you get this idea from?

Redcruisair wrote:Yes this is all true.

A shame really, that Magnus insisted on using dangerous and unclean sorcery, if he had followed the Emperor’s command he could have become the ultimate instrument for mankind’ domination of the galaxy.
Instead he believed that he was all knowing and that the warp was his to command… You see the problem here?

That's not the point. If Russ and the others (including that blockhead Dorn) hadn't forced the Emperor's hand, Magnus would have remained absolutely loyal. He would probably have accompanied the Emperor back to Terra had Nikaea not forced Magnus to return to Prospero and regroup his legion.

"The Primarchs were all powerful psykers."

Were did you get this idea from?

At Shrike, Russ let out a massive psychic howl that slaughtered most of the Atheneans among the Second Fellowship, and shook the resolve of two Thousand Sons Magisters: T'kar and Ahriman. And again at Prospero, Russ deflected Captain Auramagma's warpfire assault as though it were nothing. If Russ, the most anti-psyker among them, was a powerful psyker without realizing it, reason stands that other Primarchs also had psychic abilities they knew nothing about.

The whole point with Nikaea was to put a stop to Magnus reliance on sorcery.
Big E gave Magnus a chance to end his adventure in warp land (were Tzeenth was waiting patiently for him.) Magnus decided not to heed this warning and continued his study of the warp which led him right into Tzeenth’s pocket.

Then Magnus tried to warn the emperor of Horus treachery through sorcery, which ended horribly for them both, and proving in the end that Russ and co. were right to criticise him.
Had Nikaea ended in Magnus favour (were sorcery was allowed,) he would undoubtedly still have tried to warn his father with sorcery, forcing his father to send Russ to destroy the TS and arrest Magnus (same result in the end.)

Following that reply with something that comes to mind.

Maybe the reason Russ hated psykers so much, was he feared he was one?
Especially since he was adopted by a culture that hated such 'taint'? And he
simply projected this emotion onto the 1k son and Magnus as a result of his
fear?

All the Primarchs being psykers makes sense on a very basic level; they're all sons
of the Emprah and Chaos, and two, they all manage on some level or another to
survive in situations that even the humble Astartes get creamed in (granting some
sort of 'divine' protect ala psykic strength). Which as being among the most powerful
pyskers ever to have existed has to make you wonder about certain weapons and
how unbelievibly potent they are to have even hurt these guys...

Back on topic.

Khan for the simple face that the only things I can recall of his exploits is defending Terra
(by not helping the Emprah assault Horus); chasing after Dark Eldar in the Webway
and getting lost for the last 10k years!