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Mock Russ for his vices the drinking,the eating, and the wolves he takes with him everywhere.

Fulgrim is the most mock worthy to me though. I'm so pretty and perfect. My Legion is perfect too we all have to be bishi space marines because we're so perfect. Perfection

biccat wrote:Russ.
Turned to chaos.

lolwut? No. No he didn't. I'm no Space Wolf fanboy, but Russ remained loyal. When he was ordered to kill Magnus and attack the Thousand Sons, Horus hadn't yet revealed his true colours, so Russ thought his orders came down from the Emperor himself. The fact that he wasn't bestest buddies with Magnus in the first place was something Horus took advantage of.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Lorgar is the kid who cuts himself. Curze is the kid who cuts other people.

QFT

Tibbsy wrote:

biccat wrote:Russ.
Turned to chaos.

lolwut? No. No he didn't. I'm no Space Wolf fanboy, but Russ remained loyal. When he was ordered to kill Magnus and attack the Thousand Sons, Horus hadn't yet revealed his true colours, so Russ thought his orders came down from the Emperor himself. The fact that he wasn't bestest buddies with Magnus in the first place was something Horus took advantage of.

QFT

Russ and Magnus were good brothers, only Russ didn't like Sorcery and after the Emperor outlawed it's use at the Council of Nikea, Russ would have been even more inclined to punish those who would disobey the Emperor.

Horus just told Russ exactly what he needed to hear, the rest was down to the Superstitious Wolves and their dismissal of 'Magic'

Dorn, for defending Terra, failing in it, and let the Custodes and BA do the job. And then nearly start another civil war.

Omegus wrote:

Stupidest name: Ferrus Manus or Corax/Corvus.
Biggest emo: Lorgar or Curze
Most useless in the grand scheme of things: The Lion or Vulkan

I'm sorry but if you don't have Alpharius and Angron the very, very Angry on your list of stupidest names then your list is not worth looking at.

And if you don't Rogal 'I'll just march into that trap over there' Dorn on the list of most useless then you're just not trying.

biccat wrote:Russ.

Turned to chaos and tried to kill, on more than one occasion, a brother primarch simply to satisfy his private fears and personal grievances.

Used his influence to punish and neuter one of the other legions that would pose a thread to Horus' ascendency.

Under orders from Horus, tried to destroy an entire Legion for warning the Emperor about Horus' pending treachery.

And finally fled to the warp to join his treacherous brothers, leaving his legion behind like a coward.

I really like this. It's not too far fetched in reality.

As per usual, I'm drawn to another of Kid Kyotos threads to see who is killed by a casually tossed fluff-grenade...

All of the primarchs are mock worthy. Over the top stereotypes smothered in grimdark deserve to be the subjects of mockery. Just like the Goth kid with the overcoat back in the day.

I try to keep interested in the fluff as much as I can. However, once I reach a state of equilibrium, another BL writer comes along and destroys my initial perception of the Universe.

Ah well.

Someone mentioned that Russ has canine genetics, I don't remember this, but in a HH novel I read recently it does say something to the effect that all of the primarch genes contain a cocktail of code some of it non-human if I understood that correctly.

This is, perhaps, why Corax, the Raven has dark soulless eyes, er, like a raven. By extension this would imply that Russ is like a dog. Unquestioningly loyal to its owner, tracks his prey like a bloodhound with a very short attention span (SQUIRREL!!!).

Russ, the Dog, is just the Primarch to keep the herd in line and loyal enough to cull the trouble makers if necessary.

Tibbsy wrote:

biccat wrote:Russ.
Turned to chaos.

No. No he didn't. I'm no Space Wolf fanboy, but Russ remained loyal. When he was ordered to kill Magnus and attack the Thousand Sons, Horus hadn't yet revealed his true colours, so Russ thought his orders came down from the Emperor himself. The fact that he wasn't bestest buddies with Magnus in the first place was something Horus took advantage of.

First to attack another primarch.
Followed orders of the Traitor Warmaster.
Openly violated the Emperor's Edicts at Nikaea.
Permitted mutations among his legion.

Russ may have been loyal to the Emperor, but he still was the first to turn against his brother primarchs. At the behest of the Traitor.

Gah, look another thread turns into 'hate on SW'. lol

Russ was sent to take care of Magnus by the Emperor himself with tons of custodians and sisters of silence. Even if Horus changed his order, the Emp still sent him loaded for bear and expecting trouble.

Every legion followed orders of the Traitor until he was exposed.
Most legions violated Nikaea.
Most legions permitted mutation of one kind or another.

I'll give you that he was the first to strike a brother primarch, but that was against the two forgotten brothers and not Magnus. And all three were at the Emperor's behest. The difference with the third is that Horus tricked him into not bringing back any prisoners.

You can hate the SW all you want, but get the facts straight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if we're going with first to turn, quite a few events occured before Prospero that showed the primarchs turning against their brothers, if not openly.

Ignatius wrote:

biccat wrote:Russ.

Turned to chaos and tried to kill, on more than one occasion, a brother primarch simply to satisfy his private fears and personal grievances.

Used his influence to punish and neuter one of the other legions that would pose a thread to Horus' ascendency.

Under orders from Horus, tried to destroy an entire Legion for warning the Emperor about Horus' pending treachery.

And finally fled to the warp to join his treacherous brothers, leaving his legion behind like a coward.

I really like this. It's not too far fetched in reality.

I ADORE this. Really, really, awesome. Never thought of it that way.

Edit: I'm not trying to lay on the rage button, though I'm certainly not a Space Woof fan. I just thought it was a very interesting perspective.

@TermiesInaRaider: Wait, do you think it is an interesting perspective?

pretre wrote:@TermiesInaRaider: Wait, do you think it is an interesting perspective?

Well, that's kind of what I said, so yes.

pretre wrote:Every legion followed orders of the Traitor until he was exposed.

Not Magnus. He uncovered evidence of Horus' treachery and tried to report him to the Emperor.

pretre wrote:Most legions violated Nikaea.

Not Magnus. He followed the ruling of Nikaea against the wishes of his most trusted captains.

pretre wrote:Most legions permitted mutation of one kind or another.

Not Magnus. He actively sought out a solution to the problem of mutations (the flesh change) within his legion.

pretre wrote:I'll give you that he was the first to strike a brother primarch, but that was against the two forgotten brothers and not Magnus. And all three were at the Emperor's behest. The difference with the third is that Horus tricked him into not bringing back any prisoners.

So? He'd shown a willingness to attack other Primarchs, something that the rest of them thought was unthinkable. Even SM turning against one another was beyond comprehension.

The only remaining question is: what brought Russ back to fight for the Emperor, or at least against Horus' faction? I don't think we'll ever know that because we don't know what motivates the Primarchs. Maybe Russ decided to stay with the Emperor because he thought he would be on the winning side (and therefore get to kill more Primarchs). Maybe he realized he wouldn't be able to get drunk all the time if he went to Chaos.

biccat wrote:

pretre wrote:Every legion followed orders of the Traitor until he was exposed.

Not Magnus. He uncovered evidence of Horus' treachery and tried to report him to the Emperor.

pretre wrote:Most legions violated Nikaea.

Not Magnus. He followed the ruling of Nikaea against the wishes of his most trusted captains.

pretre wrote:Most legions permitted mutation of one kind or another.

Not Magnus. He actively sought out a solution to the problem of mutations (the flesh change) within his legion.

This is so much BS.
He uncovered evidence of Horus' treachery through consultation with the warp. Then he F'd up the salvation of mankind in reporting that treachery, in effect doing just what the ruinous powers wanted when they told him. Good job /slowclap
How did he follow Nikaea? Oh, by allowing his whole legion to still use psychic powers, keep warp creatures as pets and then perform a huge psychic ritual that ended up killing a huge portion of Terra's psykers. Good job /slowclap.
What was Magnus' solution to Flesh Change? Tzeentch. Good job /slowclap.

So who was first to turn to Chaos? Oh yeah, Magnus when he made a deal with a Chaos God as soon as his Legion rejoined him and then wrecked the Emperor's webway, killed tens of thousands of psykers and ultimately damaged the war effort and humanity's future more than Horus did.

So? He'd shown a willingness to attack other Primarchs, something that the rest of them thought was unthinkable. Even SM turning against one another was beyond comprehension.

A willingness he was given by his maker, the Emperor, who made and used him to do exactly that.

The only remaining question is: what brought Russ back to fight for the Emperor, or at least against Horus' faction? I don't think we'll ever know that because we don't know what motivates the Primarchs. Maybe Russ decided to stay with the Emperor because he thought he would be on the winning side (and therefore get to kill more Primarchs). Maybe he realized he wouldn't be able to get drunk all the time if he went to Chaos.

Or maybe this is all just haterade.

pretre wrote:Or maybe this is all just haterade.

Could be.

Or maybe I like to read between the lines of the fluff. If you're happy with taking it at face value, I've got no problem with it.

I think there's a difference between reading between the lines and making stuff up between the lines.

Don't get me wrong, I like Magnus. He meant well, but did poorly and the Imperium paid for that. But the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

Nor do I think that Russ is blameless. He assumed that Horus was still the brother he loved and the Imperium paid for that.

It is just incorrect to paint the whole thing in broad strokes based on assumptions.

biccat wrote:Openly violated the Emperor's Edicts at Nikaea.

No he didn't. They're not psykers, they're special snowflakes!*

Every legion has its special followers on the internet. Can't blame the SW for them.

thenoobbomb wrote:Dorn, for defending Terra, failing in it, and let the Custodes and BA do the job.

Sure, he failed all right after being outnumbered by how much? 3 loyal Legions against 9 traitor Legions + Titan Legions + Imperial Army.

And then nearly start another civil war.

I agree with that, no matter what he thought about that back then it was only right solution at the time as more marines fell to Chaps during 10.000 years of Imperium's existence.

Brother Coa wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:Dorn, for defending Terra, failing in it, and let the Custodes and BA do the job.

Sure, he failed all right after being outnumbered by how much? 3 loyal Legions against 9 traitor Legions + Titan Legions + Imperial Army.

The Titan legions went to Mars to take part in the Dark Mechanicum's battle. The Imperial army was on the side of Dorn. Hence the 'Imperial'. The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion and Thousand Sons weren't present, and the Emperor's Children ran around mutilating everything they could, they didn't fight. This gives us:
3 loyal legions + the Imperial Army against 5 renegade legions.

Bearing in mind that the renegades were assaulting a fortress, which essentially nullifies any advantage they may have had in numbers, the odds against Dorn weren't actually all that bad.

So being attacked by 5 renegade Legions + Daemons + Mutants + Imperial Army Renegades + Renegade Titans is not to much for just 2 Legions and Custodes and 500.000 troops?
When Custodes were overwhelmed in the Imperial Palace what should Imperial Fists do?
If Sanguinius were not there the Palace would have fallen.

Corax.

Brother Coa wrote:So being attacked by 5 renegade Legions + Daemons + Mutants + Imperial Army Renegades + Renegade Titans is not to much for just 2 Legions and Custodes and 500.000 troops?
When Custodes were overwhelmed in the Imperial Palace what should Imperial Fists do?
If Sanguinius were not there the Palace would have fallen.

With proper fortifications a defending force should be able to hold off 10x their numbers.

So we can only conclude the Imperial Fists didn't know what they doing and Rogal Dorn is the most mock-worthy primarch

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:So being attacked by 5 renegade Legions + Daemons + Mutants + Imperial Army Renegades + Renegade Titans is not to much for just 2 Legions and Custodes and 500.000 troops?
When Custodes were overwhelmed in the Imperial Palace what should Imperial Fists do?
If Sanguinius were not there the Palace would have fallen.

With proper fortifications a defending force should be able to hold off 10x their numbers.

So we can only conclude the Imperial Fists didn't know what they doing and Rogal Dorn is the most mock-worthy primarch

This, the bare minimum for attacking defensive positions is a 3 to 1 advantage, against prepared defenses 10 to 1 is probably a safer bet. Also, don't assume 3 to 1 means you are using human wave tactics, it simply offers greater capabilities, one guy can pin an enemy while two guys advance and so on.

Brother Coa wrote:So being attacked by 5 renegade Legions + Daemons + Mutants + Imperial Army Renegades + Renegade Titans is not to much for just 2 Legions and Custodes and 500.000 troops?
When Custodes were overwhelmed in the Imperial Palace what should Imperial Fists do?
If Sanguinius were not there the Palace would have fallen.

Exactly. Dorn should have sent reinforcements to the custodes when the Iron Warriors started attacking. Or, you know, made better defences. And again, the Titans were on Mars. The Imperium was more likely to have access to them than Chaos. And yes, in a fortress designed by someone apparently genetically engineered to make good defences, three legions should have been able to easily hod out against five.

LoneLictor wrote:Even Lorgar admitted he wasn't the best Primarch. He didn't like war, he was quite whiny and he was extremely insecure about the universe. Lorgar's desperate need to find some overall meaning, something truly epic to devote his life to, led to the downfall of the Imperium.

Yeah, I have to say it's probably Lorgar.

He was a middling general, an emo whiner with daddy issues who feel to Chaos because he wasn't getting validation from the Emperor. He seethed with jealousy and hatred for the other brothers he saw as favored by Dad (Guilliman and the Ultramarines). And ultimately, he was a fool, suckered into multiple lies.

And then, even after he converted to Chaos, Horus sacrificed him and the Word Bearers when he sent them to die at Calth. Even Horus though Horus knew that none of the legions stood no chance of beating the Ultramarines, he recognized that the relatively inexperienced Word Bearers were the least valuable so he used Lorgar's petty hatred (which blinded him to the fact that his legion was being sacrificed) in a gambit to attempt to slow the Ultramarines down long enough to accomplish his goal of conquering Earth.


I mean, there are plenty of things you can use to make fun of the various Primarchs. But Lorgar was straight up laughably pathetic. ADB did a good job making him a sympathetic character in the novels, but he was a chump next to even the second-weakest of his brothers.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And then, even after he converted to Chaos, Horus sacrificed him and the Word Bearers when he sent them to die at Calth. Even Horus though Horus knew that none of the legions stood no chance of beating the Ultramarines, he recognized that the relatively inexperienced Word Bearers were the least valuable so he used Lorgar's petty hatred (which blinded him to the fact that his legion was being sacrificed) in a gambit to attempt to slow the Ultramarines down long enough to accomplish his goal of conquering Earth.

Horus could've easily defeated the Ultramarines if he'd had the time to do so. Nine full Legions+Hordes of Daemons+Element of Surprise+The Fact that Gulliman was literally taking orders from Horus could've wiped the Ultramarines out pretty quick.

But yeah, the Word Bearers were sacrificed. They were used to cripple the Ultramarines at the cost of completely ruining their own Legion and ensuring that they'd pretty much never fully recover or accomplish anything after that. Cuz that's the nature of Chaos. It ain't based on loyalty or order; it's based on impulse, want and need. Just because the Gods like you now doesn't mean you'll be their favorite forever.

I think you're missing the point though. Horus could probably have been able to take out the Ultramarines. He was definitely at least as good of a general as Guilliman. However, you miss the important part. All the time and casualties he takes fighting the Ultramarines hurts his chances of taking Terra and deposing the Emperor.

Sacrificing the Word Bearers to slow down the Ultramarines was designed to give him time to take Terra, consolidate, and then deal with the Ultramarines after he'd crushed the rest of the loyal legions. If he'd won at Terra, the loyal legions would have been reduced to the remnants of the Space Wolves, half or so of the Dark Angels, and the Ultramarines (who were way bigger than everyone else, even if we accept the casualty figures from the current fluff as opposed to the original numbers when the framework of the Heresy was worked out 20 years ago) .

If he attacks the Ultramarines with everything, the loyalists get a chance to consolidate and present a united front. By sacrificing the Word Bearers in a distraction, he was able to move directly on Terra while the loyalist legions were scattered, and the largest threat (the Ultramarines) temporarily neutralized.

What you said was, "Horus knew none of the legions had a chance of beating the Ultramarines." I just went by what your post said. I apologize if that's not what you meant.

Titans didn't participate in the Battle of Terra? Are you on drugs? The walls of the palace were finally breached by the Dies Irae, an Emperor-class Titan that was attached to the Word Bearers Legion (who also fought on Terra alongside their Primarch, just to dispel accusations that they never did anything after Calth).

As for Russ, he showed a willingness to attack the Lion over a personal grievance, putting his honor over the success of the campaign. He and his Legion were ready to attack Magnus and the TS way before Nikea, all because the latter wanted to preserve a library.

Yes, Russ was a dog, and a rabid one at that. The whole, "oh the Emperor designed him as his executioner" is a bunch of crap posited by a senile old Wolf Priest. Think about it, how would his puny Legion deal with a Legion that outnumbered him 10 times over? The Wolves outnumbered the Thousand Sons, and they still needed tons of custodians and sisters of silence, as well as all the advantages given to them by Magnus (no planetary defenses, total surprise, PDF in parade gear, etc.) and they still mostly got their asses kicked after the initial surprise of their assault wore off. I don't think the Emperor knew exactly how his modifications to the primarch template would turn out, otherwise I seriously doubt he would have designed one to be a fanatic or another to have maddening visions of his demise. He just saw the tendency in Russ for blind loyalty, and used that, just like he used all the Primarchs.

Magnus violated Nikea, but at least he initially ordered his Legion to abide by the ruling and only used the ritual to contact his father because he felt it was a last resort. Russ pretended the Nikea edict never even applied to him because for the Wolves, Friendship is Magic! or whatever.

Magnus was a dumbass and made a deal with Tzeench, but who was it that propagated the lie that Warp creatures are just basically "weird aliens that you don't have to really concern yourself with"? Oh yea, that Emperor guy. Magnus violated a stupid edict (that was overturned like a week into the Heresy by both Guilliman and the Sigillite, with concent from the Emperor), whereas Russ was in violation of the Imperial Truth by allowing his recruits to retain their barbaric belief system.

Magnus felt genuine remorse over his mistake (and some sources suggest still does to this day), and was ready to accept his punishment (setting up his own world to fall to the Wolves), before finally being goaded into action when the Wolves started killing and destroying everything in sight like they tended to do. When Russ found out he was duped, he suppressed all evidence of the truth and pretended nothing happened, dicked around for a little while, and then abandoned his duty to go gallivanting about in the Warp.

Magnus = road to hell paved with good intentions.
Russ = willful ignorance and self-delusion, misplaced violence, and inability to realize Begging' Strips aren't bacon.