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Redcruisair wrote: Then Magnus tried to warn the emperor of Horus treachery through sorcery, which ended horribly for them both, and proving in the end that Russ and co. were right to criticise him.

If Russ hadn't been dumb/arrogant/blind enough to follow the traitor Warmaster's orders, or perhaps see that he (Horus) was tainted rather than Magnus, then Magnus would have been able to warn the Emperor successfully. He could have ended the Heresy there and then. But no, obviously Russ was right to attack the loyal Thousand sons, his loyal brothers, at the request of the true traitor, Horus, and continue the heresy.

Russ, definitely, for team killing, provoking others to turn renegade, and for causing the heresy to almost succeed.

Give one good reason as to why Russ should question Horus loyalty and choose not to listen to the Warmaster. Hmm that’s a though one right?

Besides prospero burns hinted towards the possibility, that it was the emperor who ordered the TS legion destroyed.

Yeah, and look how THAT one ended up.

Redcruisair wrote:

Had Nikaea ended in Magnus favour (were sorcery was allowed,) he would undoubtedly still have tried to warn his father with sorcery, forcing his father to send Russ to destroy the TS and arrest Magnus (same result in the end.)

No, if that had happened, Magnus would never have returned to Prospero and would probably have accompanied his father back to Terra after Ullanor to work on the Webway. And Russ would probably have been the one to join Horus over being rebuffed at Nikaea. Hmmm...I can live with that.


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Redcruisair wrote:Give one good reason as to why Russ should question Horus loyalty and choose not to listen to the Warmaster. Hmm that’s a though one right?

The Emperor ordered Magnus be brought back to Terra to answer too take responsibility for his actions - that is to keep the Golden Throne under control while the Emperor repaired the damage.

Besides prospero burns hinted towards the possibility, that it was the emperor who ordered the TS legion destroyed.

Prospero Burns is written from the Wolves perspective. A Thousand Sons is written from the Sons' perspective. Both are biased. But the fluff on the Heresy states that Russ' orders were to bring Magnus back to Terra, not kill him. And orders from the Emperor obviously supersede that of the Warmaster's.

Prospero Burns is written from the Wolves perspective. A Thousand Sons is written from the Sons' perspective. Both are biased. But the fluff on the Heresy states that Russ' orders were to bring Magnus back to Terra, not kill him. And orders from the Emperor obviously supersede that of the Warmaster's.

Essentially, this just about sums it up. If Russ had been thinking rationally, without letting his hatred for his brother blind him and his lust for pillage and combat dissuade him, he would have realized that, in the case of this kind of confusion of orders, the best decision was to bring Magnus in. If, in fact, the Emperor actually wanted the Thousand Sons purged, they could still be executed there, without risking razing an entire planet over a misscommnication. Which actually turned out to be a fullblown heresy, but here I'm giving Russ a little Benefit of the Doubt; of all the primarchs, Lemon Grass was probably the least intelligent, and thus, can't really be expected to see through Horus' deceptions.

Russ' biggest flaw, like many of the primarchs, and, one could argue, the Emperor too, wasn't that he was a reckless, obstinate, foolish space frat-boy who was willing to slaughter his brother and nephews for a figurative Beggin' Strip (Read As; Vindication for his own childish grudges and neanderthalian superstitions). It was that he was either completely unable or completely unwilling to identify and change those flaws.

Lemon Grass...lmao

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Russ' biggest flaw, like many of the primarchs, and, one could argue, the Emperor too, wasn't that he was a reckless, obstinate, foolish space frat-boy who was willing to slaughter his brother and nephews for a figurative Beggin' Strip (Read As; Vindication for his own childish grudges and neanderthalian superstitions). It was that he was either completely unable or completely unwilling to identify and change those flaws.

This quote offers a new perspective on the Dog of Fenris:

Bloody Adair wrote:

Maybe the reason Russ hated psykers so much, was he feared he was one?
Especially since he was adopted by a culture that hated such 'taint'? And he
simply projected this emotion onto the 1k son and Magnus as a result of his
fear?

Russ is a psyker. At Shrike, he let out a psychic howl that slaughtered Atheneans (talk about friendly fire) across the battlefield and shook Ahriman and T'kar, both of whom were Thousand Son magisters.

Tadashi wrote:Lemon Grass...lmao

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Russ' biggest flaw, like many of the primarchs, and, one could argue, the Emperor too, wasn't that he was a reckless, obstinate, foolish space frat-boy who was willing to slaughter his brother and nephews for a figurative Beggin' Strip (Read As; Vindication for his own childish grudges and neanderthalian superstitions). It was that he was either completely unable or completely unwilling to identify and change those flaws.

This quote offers a new perspective on the Dog of Fenris:

Bloody Adair wrote:

Maybe the reason Russ hated psykers so much, was he feared he was one?
Especially since he was adopted by a culture that hated such 'taint'? And he
simply projected this emotion onto the 1k son and Magnus as a result of his
fear?

Russ is a psyker. At Shrike, he let out a psychic howl that slaughtered Atheneans (talk about friendly fire) across the battlefield and shook Ahriman and T'kar, both of whom were Thousand Son magisters.

Lol, it's not my phrase, someone else said it earlier in the thread. Well, for the second bit, he might not have KNOWN, or at the very least, consciously accEpted that fact. I do like the psychology behind it, though, very Jungian.

Tadashi wrote:

Redcruisair wrote:

Had Nikaea ended in Magnus favour (were sorcery was allowed,) he would undoubtedly still have tried to warn his father with sorcery, forcing his father to send Russ to destroy the TS and arrest Magnus (same result in the end.)

Redcruisair wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

No, if that had happened, Magnus would never have returned to Prospero and would probably have accompanied his father back to Terra after Ullanor to work on the Webway. And Russ would probably have been the one to join Horus over being rebuffed at Nikaea. Hmmm...I can live with that.

This peace right here contradicts what was written in A Thousand Sons.

Magnus: “He not only declines my assistance, he warns me to delve no further into my studies. He assures me that he has a vital role for me in the final realisation of his grand designs.” Page 276

We can conclude from this, that Magnus were not to return to Terra until the crusade had reached its final stage.

If you are in possession of some peace of text, that states Magnus did not follow the emperor home do to Nikaea, then I would very much like to see it. Intel then my statement still stands. Magnus would have destroyed the gateway regardless whether Nikaea happened or not.

Redcruisair wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Redcruisair wrote:

Had Nikaea ended in Magnus favour (were sorcery was allowed,) he would undoubtedly still have tried to warn his father with sorcery, forcing his father to send Russ to destroy the TS and arrest Magnus (same result in the end.)

Redcruisair wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

No, if that had happened, Magnus would never have returned to Prospero and would probably have accompanied his father back to Terra after Ullanor to work on the Webway. And Russ would probably have been the one to join Horus over being rebuffed at Nikaea. Hmmm...I can live with that.

This peace right here contradicts what was written in A Thousand Sons.

Magnus: “He not only declines my assistance, he warns me to delve no further into my studies. He assures me that he has a vital role for me in the final realisation of his grand designs.” Page 276

We can conclude from this, that Magnus were not to return to Terra until the crusade had reached its final stage.

If you are in possession of some peace of text, that states Magnus did not follow the emperor home do to Nikaea, then I would very much like to see it. Intel then my statement still stands. Magnus would have destroyed the gateway regardless whether Nikaea happened or not.

No, Magnus' help on the Webway was rebuffed because of the events at Nikaea, where he was ordered to return to Propero and reorganize his legion. Otherwise, Magnus would have remained in the Emperor's good graces and would have come to Terra after Ullanor.

And must I reiterate: A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns are biased to their respective sides, but the neutral fluff of the HH states that Magnus was to be brought back to Terra. His punishment was to maintain the Golden Throne while the Emperor repaired the damage to the Webway and directed the Terran defense.

Again you bring this up. "Otherwise, Magnus would have remained in the Emperor's good graces and would have come to Terra after Ullanor."

This all would have been fine if you could provide me with a source on this. Were did you get it from I ask? Is it from The Collection edition? Some old fluff perhaps?

Redcruisair wrote:Again you bring this up. "Otherwise, Magnus would have remained in the Emperor's good graces and would have come to Terra after Ullanor."

This all would have been fine if you could provide me with a source on this. Were did you get it from I ask? Is it from The Collection edition? Some old fluff perhaps?

Simple logic. The Golden Throne was built for Magnus. Magnus was meant to use the Throne to allow the Humans to use the Webway until the Emperor and the Mechanicus could replicate the Webway's construction material. Following Nikaea, Magnus was ordered to return to Prospero and reorganize his legion without sorcerers/librarians. If Magnus wasn't censored at Nikaea, you think the Emperor would have left him behind after Ullanor? Of course not. There would have been no rift between them, and Magnus would have been brought along back to Terra to assist in the Webway's construction.

Ah. I see it was an expectation on your part. Of course you are free to speculate.
Regardless, I still don’t see it the same way, especially not if you consider the fact, that the Webway was still on under construction when Magnus broke it. So if your speculations are true, Magnus was to return to Terra when the gate wasn’t even done? Also the emperor stated that the Webway project was too delicate to allow Magnus take any part in it. Your theory makes little sense to me my friend

Redcruisair wrote:Ah. I see it was an expectation on your part. Of course you are free to speculate.

Thank you.

Regardless, I still don’t see it the same way, especially not if you consider the fact, that the Webway was still on under construction when Magnus broke it. So if your speculations are true, Magnus was to return to Terra when the gate wasn’t even done? Also the emperor stated that the Webway project was too delicate to allow Magnus take any part in it. Your theory makes little sense to me my friend

He said so probably because Magnus' use of sorcery made him receptive to 'brute force' approach unsuitable to the delicate nature of the Webway. If the Emperor had sided with Magnus at Nikaea, I imagine the Emperor teaching Magnus how to further refine his techniques, and more importantly, how to control the Warp on the same level as sorcery but without relying on the beings that dwell there.

In my speculation, two Primarchs went back to Terra after Ullanor: Guilliman and Magnus. Guilliman and Malcador were the ones forming the Council of Terra (the Warmaster had a seat this time) and the Imperial Administration, while Magnus was working on the Throne with the Emperor. Actually Magnus isn't working on the Webway, just keeping the Throne under control. Only once the Emperor had linked the Terran tunnel with the main network would Magnus take full control of the Webway, which, I imagine would allow Magnus to isolate, expand, repair or even directly control the tunnels of the Webway. This would be disastrous for the Eldar I imagine, seeing as Commoragh and the Craftwolds finding themselves disconnected from the rest of the network.

That is quit an intriguing theory you got yourself there good sir

I think it is time for me to back off from this discussion, seeing as how it has moved from “fluff land” into “speculation land”.

Redcruisair wrote:That is quit an intriguing theory you got yourself there good sir

I think it is time for me to back off from this discussion, seeing as how it has moved from “fluff land” into “speculation land”.

Agreed. Let's end this line of thought here before we get more off-topic than we already are.

I think any Primarch that became chaos daemons are at the bottom of the barrel. They accepted the fact that they could be more thus acknowledging their own flaws, which I consider feeble and distasteful.

The loyal Primarchs did not acknowledge or recognize a flaw within themselves or their legion, any errors could be overcome with sure will power.

I dont have a least favorite, I think all ex-primarch daemon thingys are equally feeble, with the exception of Angron whos sure bad a%%ery is a wonder to behold.

My favorite Primarch is Rogal Dorn every Primarch acknowledged his skills.

Well to be fair, pretty much all the primarchs acknowledged that their brothers had good skills.

But I think Angron is one of the least mockworthy. His legion broke into the palace during the siege of terra, and after he became an even more powerful daemon being he actually went out and did a little bit of ravaging unlike many of his traitor brothers.

They're all mockworthy...nothing but a bunch of spoiled brats!

Boo hoo! Daddy left me here and I don't know what to do....I know...I'll go back to earth and try to kill him!...That'll show him why I deserve a place in history!

Let me see how many of my brothers I can get to do it with me!

Seriously Mr Horus?...grow up you idiot.

I'll put my vote on Leman Russ. He's just a dim-witted Space Viking that refuses to acknowledge the fact that EVERY Psyker draws upon the Warp for their powers, and also fails to see the boons it grants to a trained mind *cough*Thousand Sons*cough*. The only good thing he's done is providing a name to my favorite tank, and that's it.

Oh, and I almost forgot: Roadkill Zombie, I couldn't escape the sight of your signature. You do realise that it's
*BLAM BLAM BLAM*

Angron. No personality at all.

Wh40kProductions wrote:The only good thing he's done is providing a name to my favorite tank, and that's it.

QFT.

Wh40kProductions wrote:I'll put my vote on Leman Russ. He's just a dim-witted Space Viking that refuses to acknowledge the fact that EVERY Psyker draws upon the Warp for their powers, and also fails to see the boons it grants to a trained mind *cough*Thousand Sons*cough*. The only good thing he's done is providing a name to my favorite tank, and that's it.

Oh, and I almost forgot: Roadkill Zombie, I couldn't escape the sight of your signature. You do realise that it's
*BLAM BLAM BLAM*

Haha...yep!...When GW axed the Squats from the game and then brought back a lot of their stuff as Space Marine equipment and psychic powers, and made references in the Grey Knight codex to secret pacts with unknown races with high technology levels that are making equipment for the Grey Knights, I knew it had to be the Squats. The Squats used Dark Age of Technology stuff all the time, could replicate it, and sold it to the Imperium.

That explains why there is no record of the supposed Tyranid fleet that ate the Squats...It didn't happen...it's an Inquisition cover up! They fabricated the story so they could subsume the Squats into the Inquisition and use them to make all their tech!

(And secretly, I'm Horus, a spoiled rotten Brat. I'm telling GW..err...the Emperor that I deserve my place in History too by playing my axed army as the most Overpowered army to exist in the 5th edition game)

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Haha...yep!...When GW axed the Squats from the game and then brought back a lot of their stuff as Space Marine equipment and psychic powers, and made references in the Grey Knight codex to secret pacts with unknown races with high technology levels that are making equipment for the Grey Knights, I knew it had to be the Squats. The Squats used Dark Age of Technology stuff all the time, could replicate it, and sold it to the Imperium.

That explains why there is no record of the supposed Tyranid fleet that ate the Squats...It didn't happen...it's an Inquisition cover up! They fabricated the story so they could subsume the Squats into the Inquisition and use them to make all their tech!

(And secretly, I'm Horus, a spoiled rotten Brat. I'm telling GW..err...the Emperor that I deserve my place in History too by playing my axed army as the most Overpowered army to exist in the 5th edition game)

My God(-Emperor)...

That actually makes sense!

Tadashi wrote:You do realize in real life something similar exists. Something, if it actually became reality, would be opposed by religions across the globe because it's 'dehumanizing'. Something called transhumanism. It takes a variety of forms: genetic enhancement, cybernetics, consciousness being uploaded into a computer, or even technological singularity. I know it's kinda strange coming from an Imperial fan, but given the choice in real life, I'd accept the technological singularity - a level of life surpassing both organic and synthetic, the strengths of both but the weaknesses of neither, 'ascension' to a higher level of evolution.

Well, I would imagine many people feel the same. The clean and sterile path of technological apotheosis seems far more palatable than tentacles and demon face-rape.

Omegus wrote:

Tadashi wrote:You do realize in real life something similar exists. Something, if it actually became reality, would be opposed by religions across the globe because it's 'dehumanizing'. Something called transhumanism. It takes a variety of forms: genetic enhancement, cybernetics, consciousness being uploaded into a computer, or even technological singularity. I know it's kinda strange coming from an Imperial fan, but given the choice in real life, I'd accept the technological singularity - a level of life surpassing both organic and synthetic, the strengths of both but the weaknesses of neither, 'ascension' to a higher level of evolution.

Well, I would imagine many people feel the same. The clean and sterile path of technological apotheosis seems far more palatable than tentacles and demon face-rape.

Which begs the question: if religions are supposed to 'uplift' humanity and make them better, why oppose transhumans? If it became reality, it could start the biggest religious wars in history since the Protestant Wars of the 16th Century, between those in favor (including me) and those against.

Tadashi wrote:Which begs the question: if religions are supposed to 'uplift' humanity and make them better, why oppose transhumans? If it became reality, it could start the biggest religious wars in history since the Protestant Wars of the 16th Century, between those in favor (including me) and those against.

Someone has been playing Deus Ex.

SoulGazer wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Regardless, Lorgar was a chump. He was the first pawn in Chaos's game. But he was never more than that. The Ruinous Powers knew that Lorgar was the weakest of the primarchs (physically, mentally, and emotionally) and the easiest to convert. And once they had done that, they could use him to help pollute some of his brothers.

Yup, so physically weak he beat An'ggrath in single combat and walked away from it. I believe Sanguinius had trouble fighting Ka'Bandha to the point where he got both his legs broken and was nearly killed. Yeah, Lorgar is pretty weak alright. He's also so weak mentally that he was only able to completely convert every planet he conquered to the worship of the Emperor no matter what the culture was before just by speaking to them. How lame. And he's so weak emotionally that he stood before the Emperor and demanded the truth, when all others would not dare question the Emperor. Lorgar had to be driven to his knees by the psychic might of the Emperor himself because he would not back down from his beliefs when the Emperor refused to tell him the whole truth. Yeah, man, Lorgar is utterly pathetic.

What he said.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I hate to break your heart homey, but I actually had a conversation on B&C with A-D-B (you know, the author of Aurelian) and while for obvious reasons he didn't confirm or deny my interpretation, it was fairly obvious that I hit the nail on the head.

Link or it didn't happen.

Omegus wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Which begs the question: if religions are supposed to 'uplift' humanity and make them better, why oppose transhumans? If it became reality, it could start the biggest religious wars in history since the Protestant Wars of the 16th Century, between those in favor (including me) and those against.

Someone has been playing Deus Ex.

That I have. Not to mention Halo (not much transhumans there, unless you count Spartans), Mass Effect (synthesis positively screams technological singularity). And I've watched Ghost in the Shell. The level of cybernetics there - if not the AI - would leave the Adeptus Mechanicus roaring for their own.

Melissia wrote:Angron. No personality at all.

I used to think this untill I listened to Butchers nails.

CKO wrote:I think any Primarch that became chaos daemons are at the bottom of the barrel. They accepted the fact that they could be more thus acknowledging their own flaws, which I consider feeble and distasteful.

The loyal Primarchs did not acknowledge or recognize a flaw within themselves or their legion, any errors could be overcome with sure will power.

I dont have a least favorite, I think all ex-primarch daemon thingys are equally feeble, with the exception of Angron whos sure bad a%%ery is a wonder to behold.

My favorite Primarch is Rogal Dorn every Primarch acknowledged his skills.

I do not care for Angron, he would certainly be more badass if he wasn't so one dimensional. I would have to say either Russ or Sanguinius are the most mock worthy, because while they are good primarchs, their characterization is just stupid. Russ is a space viking obsessed with wolves, who IIRC has wolf DNA. Sanguinius is a blonde haired angel who has been said to have had all of the emperor's qualities and it has been stated by some primarchs that he should have been warmaster. Just gives a huge mary sue feel. Also Angron is stupidly one dimensional, he is angry, nothing more.

As for the primarch that is the worst actual primarch, this is a tough one. Some might say Guilleman, but despite how I dislike the idea of the codex astartes, he did help hold the Imperium together, Lion actually seems quite insufferable at times with his giving the Iron Warriors siege equipment before he knew they turned traitor so Perturabo would support his bid for warmaster. TBH I think that the worst primarch is every primarch that just wandered off after the heresy, sure Dorn and Guilleman shouldn't have gotten themselves killed, but at least they didn't just up and leave saying that they might one day return. So long story short the worst primarch is a tie between Corax, Russ, and Vulkan. Honestly if you don't want them around, kill them off, don't have them wander off one day saying that they will return.

This situation is kind of a double edged sword.

There were/are 20 primarchs, so that makes 20 people to choose from. Sadly not everyone of them has had the same time and effort put into telling of their stories like Russ and Fulgrim. Hell there are two guys (the ones that went missing) who we know next to nothing about. Its easy to build stronger emotions for or against people that you actually have information on.

So, is Russ the most mockworthy? I donno, but we have several novels relating to his deeds so people can choose to make a somewhat informed opinion. Its kind of hard to mock someone who hasn't actually done much of anything (like the two missing guys) but for all we know they wear their underpants on the outside and suck the frosted fillings out of twinkies.

Now I realize that I'm defending Russ a little bit, but at least the guy did something significant. For good or for bad, at least there are deeds attached to his name that we can draw opinions on about his character. At least some novelist found him interesting enough to write about. I just can't wait for some of the other Primarchs to finally get their own books and we the gaming geeks of the world can pick apart their actions for good or for ill and form all new opinions and argue endlessly about them.