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Speaking of Russ and Magnus... anyone else remember that bit in A Thousand Sons on Shrike where Russ murdered a whole bunch of Thousand Sons?
Spoiler:
Ahriman sensed the violent spike of psychic energy a second before it hit.
It swept over them, a sudden, shocking blast of psychic noise that overwhelmed the senses with its sheer violence. Uthizzar cried out and dropped his weapon. Lemuel doubled over in pain, convulsing in spastic fits.
“What in the name of the Great Ocean was that?” cried Sobek. “A weapon?”
“A psychic Shockwave,” gasped Uthizzar. “One of immense proportions.”
Ahriman forced the pain away and knelt beside Lemuel. The remembrancer’s face was a mask of blood. It wept from his eyes and poured in a steady stream from his nose.
“So strong?” asked Ahriman, still blinking away hazy afterimages. “Are you sure?”
Uthizzar nodded.
“I am,” he said. “It is a howl of pure rage, cold, jagged and merciless.”
Ahriman trusted Uthizzar’s judgement, tasting icy metal and feeling the rage of a hunter’s fury denied.
“Such a force of psychic might is too powerful for any normal mind,” said Uthizzar, reliving a painful memory. “I have felt this before.”
Ahriman read Uthizzar’s aura and knew.
“Leman Russ,” he said."
then a little later, the only other time it's referenced again:
“T’kar,” said Ahriman. “Tell me what is happening! We heard a psychic shout more powerful than anything I’ve ever known.”
“It was Leman Russ,” said Uthizzar. “Wasn’t it?”
Phosis T’kar nodded, turning and indicating that they should follow him.
“Most probably,” he spat. “Killed almost every Athanaean in my Fellowship, and most of the ones that aren’t dead are reduced to drooling lackwits.”
And anyone else bothered by the fact that the incident is never mentioned again? :|
Magnus felt genuine remorse over his mistake (and some sources suggest still does to this day), and was ready to accept his punishment (setting up his own world to fall to the Wolves), before finally being goaded into action when the Wolves started killing and destroying everything in sight like they tended to do. When Russ found out he was duped, he suppressed all evidence of the truth and pretended nothing happened, dicked around for a little while, and then abandoned his duty to go gallivanting about in the Warp.
Magnus = road to hell paved with good intentions.
Russ = willful ignorance and self-delusion, misplaced violence, and inability to realize Begging' Strips aren't bacon.
Actually, according to the epilogue of A Thousand Sons, Magnus is still conflicted with his decision to accept Tzeentch's deal, as Ahriman describes him as "...gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval...". Ahriman also mentions that the Rubric would be the first step in reclaiming the honor of the legion in the Emperor's eyes. I don't know what happened after the Rubric is cast, but I would interpret Magnus planning the destruction of the Imperium in a different manner: destroy the 'current' iteration of the Imperium, where the Emperor is a god, and the Imperial Truth lies dead. Kinda like Cipher, kill the Emperor's body and allow Him to be reborn, after which he'll kick everyone's asses for letting things get that bad, then rebuild the Imperial Truth through the Ecclesiarchy (is there really any difference between a raving missionary and a manipulative iterator) and shake up the other Imperial organizations.
As for Russ, he probably got lucky that the Emperor was incapacitated after the Siege: his blind idiocy and lack of reason with regards to the Thousand Sons would probably have meant a reprimand or worse from the Emperor. Actually, when I first got to know 40k, I was surprised why some Primarchs turned traitor while others remained loyal.
Magnus - only Guilliman was as devoted to the Imperial Truth as Magnus
Kurze - if he knew what would happen if Horus betrayed the Emperor, why would he join Horus? If he felt obliged to deliver justice, why didn't he try and stop Horus?
Leman Russ - isn't he more likely to join Horus than Magnus? Compared to civilized, erudite Magnus, Russ was an ignorant fool and a rabid dog, not mention a complete barbarian - he should have been easier to corrupt/manipulate than Magnus
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
This seriously. Handing 18 Mutant children the keys to the universe then ignoring them is not a great idea.
Im also sure the Big E never took child raising 101. Seriously, There's quite a few thing he could have handled better.
"Angron wants to Die with his friends... Hmmm me and these Custodes could probably hand that other armies asses to them, Nope Frak it Telly him up here." *Zap* Hey son! *RAGE AND MURDER, zap* "That went well, He'll be alright"
Emperors Faithful wrote:
metallifan wrote:Maybe it's not the ROFLSTOMP that Americans are used to...
Skits wrote: “T’kar,” said Ahriman. “Tell me what is happening! We heard a psychic shout more powerful than anything I’ve ever known.” “It was Leman Russ,” said Uthizzar. “Wasn’t it?” Phosis T’kar nodded, turning and indicating that they should follow him. “Most probably,” he spat. “Killed almost every Athanaean in my Fellowship, and most of the ones that aren’t dead are reduced to drooling lackwits. And anyone else bothered by the fact that the incident is never mentioned again? :|
For someone who despises psykers, the idiot was a powerful psyker; most likely he used the same hypocritical excuse as his warp-damned wolf priests: We don't use the power of the Warp, we invoke the power of Fenris!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/11 07:59:11
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Tadashi wrote:Actually, according to the epilogue of A Thousand Sons, Magnus is still conflicted with his decision to accept Tzeentch's deal, as Ahriman describes him as "...gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval...". Ahriman also mentions that the Rubric would be the first step in reclaiming the honor of the legion in the Emperor's eyes. I don't know what happened after the Rubric is cast, but I would interpret Magnus planning the destruction of the Imperium in a different manner: destroy the 'current' iteration of the Imperium, where the Emperor is a god, and the Imperial Truth lies dead. Kinda like Cipher, kill the Emperor's body and allow Him to be reborn, after which he'll kick everyone's asses for letting things get that bad, then rebuild the Imperial Truth through the Ecclesiarchy (is there really any difference between a raving missionary and a manipulative iterator) and shake up the other Imperial organizations.
As for Russ, he probably got lucky that the Emperor was incapacitated after the Siege: his blind idiocy and lack of reason with regards to the Thousand Sons would probably have meant a reprimand or worse from the Emperor. Actually, when I first got to know 40k, I was surprised why some Primarchs turned traitor while others remained loyal.
Magnus - only Guilliman was as devoted to the Imperial Truth as Magnus
Kurze - if he knew what would happen if Horus betrayed the Emperor, why would he join Horus? If he felt obliged to deliver justice, why didn't he try and stop Horus?
Leman Russ - isn't he more likely to join Horus than Magnus? Compared to civilized, erudite Magnus, Russ was an ignorant fool and a rabid dog, not mention a complete barbarian - he should have been easier to corrupt/manipulate than Magnus
The Emperor knew how bad it would get, since he was given the full run-down of how the Heresy would play out shortly after Magnus blew up the Webway.
I would say Dorn was equally devoted to the Imperial Truth, since it broke his heart to help the Sigilite kill it. Kurze is easy, the dude was crazy. He never actively joined Horus, he was essentially a renegade after he disagreed with Dorn over how to treat prisoners of war (Dorn: re-educate and re-purpose, Kurze: flay alive and crucify), almost beat Dorn to death, and then slaughtered a bunch of Custodians and Astartes when he fled his trial. Then he lashed out blindly until the Emperor was forced to put him down, and Kurze took that as his vindication.
Russ being blind to the nature of his and his Legion's psychic powers was probably what protected him from corruption, since as we all know, belief is a very powerful thing in the 40k universe. Ahriman noted that all the fetishes and bone trinkets festooning Space Wolf armor created a protective haze over them that resisted outside psychic influence, and attibuted this effect to their wholehearted belief in them. It's basically mind over matter, except replace mind with lack thereof.
Toast36 wrote:I'm seeing a lot of hate for the Wolf-Man here. Not sure it's all founded.
Dog DNA maybe an issue but I ask you all who is mans best friend?
Any way, back on topic I would have to say Rowboat Girllyman.
Yeah, but if Russ hadn't been so blind, the Heresy would have ended differently. Magnus' 'punishment' when he arrived at Terra was to control the unstable Throne while the Emperor repaired the damage to the Webway, not to mention adding another legion, which was probably the least dependent on numbers, to the defense of Terra.
Man's best friend is himself - in the end, our destiny is ours to claim with our hands. And Guilliman was a genius, if you don't mind. He pulled the Imperium back together after the Heresy. I'd say he'd tie with Lion for third in line to be Warmaster, after Sanguinius (second) and Horus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/11 08:03:07
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
All of them can be mocked to some extent, like every other living being in existance. They were after all the virtues AND faults of humanity magnified.
Tadashi wrote:
Man's best friend is himself - in the end, our destiny is ours to claim with our hands. And Guilliman was a genius, if you don't mind. He pulled the Imperium back together after the Heresy. I'd say he'd tie with Lion for third in line to be Warmaster, after Sanguinius (second) and Horus.
The Lion as warmaster? Ludicrous.
Someone with no social common sense or ability to read people cannot be in such a position of authority. He really shouldn't have even been in charge of the Legion, but rather be relegated to the role of tactical advisor (he's basically Data from Star Trek).
Tadashi wrote: Man's best friend is himself - in the end, our destiny is ours to claim with our hands. And Guilliman was a genius, if you don't mind. He pulled the Imperium back together after the Heresy. I'd say he'd tie with Lion for third in line to be Warmaster, after Sanguinius (second) and Horus.
The Lion as warmaster? Ludicrous.
Someone with no social common sense or ability to read people cannot be in such a position of authority. He really shouldn't have even been in charge of the Legion, but rather be relegated to the role of tactical advisor (he's basically Data from Star Trek).
Perhaps, but personality-wise, Sanguinius should have been made Warmaster, not Horus. After all, while all the Primarchs had some beef with each other, everyone respected Sanguinius. Even Horus considered him as superior to himself.
After all, who can have a beef with this guy? Sorry Slaanesh, looks like even your Keepers of Secrets who are supposed to know their opponents' greatest desires are nothing compared to the Angel.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/05/11 09:06:14
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
He was thought by some to be a bit ephemeral and flighty to be Warmaster, but yes, he would have probably been a good choice. The guy is a total badass. I can't wait till the HH books get to this point.
Shame his Legion/Chapter are so boring to read about. I couldn't get more than a handful of chapters through their Omnibus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/11 09:10:24
Omegus wrote: Shame his Legion/Chapter are so boring to read about. I couldn't get more than a handful of chapters through their Omnibus.
Shame about that, but with the tragic consequences of Sanguinius' death, it can't be helped if they're a little 'off'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/11 09:20:27
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
LoneLictor wrote:What you said was, "Horus knew none of the legions had a chance of beating the Ultramarines." I just went by what your post said. I apologize if that's not what you meant.
Fair enough.
Though the root of "none" is "not one".
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Beaviz81 wrote:Nah it's Rowboat for obvious reasons.
Give me one actual serious reason.
Gulliman was all kinds of awesome. Tactical genius, noble, honourable, disciplined.. How can you pick him above angry cry baby goths (Curze), childish religious zealots (Lorgar) and brainless steroid addled freaks (Angron)
Sure 4chan is pretty funny, but if were talking serious fluff, there seems little to mock Gulliman about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dont agree that all are worth mockery in some manner, Ive read every HH book now and I can only think of three awful ones.
Curze- Proper sad goth boy loser
Angron - Ridiculous steroid head.
Fulgrim- Ass raped by a demon, didn't think to put the sword down?!
Oh, plus I guess Khan and Mortation.. there doesn't seem to be enough fluff to take the piss out of those two.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/11 14:16:16
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Toast36 wrote:Have to agree the LEAST mock worthy primarch is Sangunius.
Oh yeah, blonde hair, angel wings, slew a daemon, runs around in golden armour, there is nothing strange or mock worthy about that. </sarcasm> Honestly the whole Blood Angel spiel is pretty funny angry vampires in red armour, with gold armour and angel wings for the leaders and elites.
He said LEAST mock-worthy, which I agree with. All primarchs are caricatures in one way or another, but I find Sang to be the most tolerable, partly because he was NOT a space vampire. It was his legion that went emo berserk and started lapping up blood, which is one reason why I dislike the BA.
Beaviz81 wrote:Nah it's Rowboat for obvious reasons.
Give me one actual serious reason.
Gulliman was all kinds of awesome. Tactical genius, noble, honourable, disciplined.. How can you pick him above angry cry baby goths (Curze), childish religious zealots (Lorgar) and brainless steroid addled freaks (Angron)
Sure 4chan is pretty funny, but if were talking serious fluff, there seems little to mock Gulliman about.
I have to agree that Guilliman is far too harshly criticized. The 1d4chan articles on him and the Ultramarines are funny, but can't be taken seriously. Guilliman's sole fault seems to have been that he was too loyal, and wasn't able to do the right thing after the Heresy, which was to assume the mantle of the Emperor and take control of the Imperium. He was too loyal to what he perceived to be the Emperor's Will, and he felt that his place was to fight humanity's battles, not to rule them. However, that was the Emperor's Will when the Emperor was alive. In his absence, the primarchs needed to inherit his kingdom, and Guilliman was the only one left able to do that. Instead, like The Good Son he was, he turned the Imperium over to the High Lords, and went back to Ultramar to lead his Chapter. Run by a succession of greedy humans, the Imperium regressed to what it is today. If Guilliman had run it, you'd probably see a modern, effective Imperial Guard, an efficient Administratum, and he'd definitely have blocked the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, which is the most corrupt of the Imperium's institutions.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/12 06:38:10
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Guilliman's sole fault seems to have been that he was too loyal, and wasn't able to do the right thing after the Heresy, which was to assume the mantle of the Emperor and take control of the Imperium. He was too loyal to what he perceived to be the Emperor's Will, and he felt that his place was to fight humanity's battles, not to rule them. However, that was the Emperor's Will when the Emperor was alive. In his absence, the primarchs needed to inherit his kingdom, and Guilliman was the only one left able to do that. Instead, like The Good Son he was, he turned the Imperium over to the High Lords, and went back to Ultramar to lead his Chapter. Run by a succession of greedy humans, the Imperium regressed to what it is today. If Guilliman had run it, you'd probably see a modern, effective Imperial Guard, an efficient Administratum, and he'd definitely have blocked the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, which is the most corrupt of the Imperium's institutions.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
IMO, Guilliman didn't want to take the Throne as the new Emperor because he couldn't command the complete trust and respect of his brothers. Only one Primarch had that: Sanguinius. I know I sound like a Sanguinius fanboy, but I'm not. My favorite Primarch is actually Magnus; I'm simply saying the truth - the only one who could have commanded the trust and respect of the remaining Primarchs to assume the Throne safely without risking fracture and a new civil war was Sanguinius, and he died on the Vengeful Spirit. Actually I would argue this was the reason the Emperor tried to leave Sanguinius behind - so he can take the Throne once everything was over. But he insisted on accompanying the Emperor. I've never really bought the idea that Sanguinius created a 'chink' in Horus' armor - the Emperor is not a god, but He has the power of one, and when He unleashed that without any restraint, Horus was obliterated, mind, body, and soul.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/12 11:16:12
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
For me, the perfect gulligull Guilliman, is boring as hell and lacks flaws, that's the obvious reasons. He seems far better than the Emperor himself, which is completely absurd.
And for Angron, well unlike the rest of the Primarches he is actually doing something. The rest is either sleeping (Guilliman and Johnson), lost in the warp (too many to name and overlaps with dead on more than one occasion) or they are dead (or lost in the warp or both) or they are lazy (only Angron of the surviving traitor-promarches actually have a day-job, but Magnus has a part-time job as a bullseye for Space Wolves).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/05/12 11:48:16
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Guilliman's sole fault seems to have been that he was too loyal, and wasn't able to do the right thing after the Heresy, which was to assume the mantle of the Emperor and take control of the Imperium. He was too loyal to what he perceived to be the Emperor's Will, and he felt that his place was to fight humanity's battles, not to rule them. However, that was the Emperor's Will when the Emperor was alive. In his absence, the primarchs needed to inherit his kingdom, and Guilliman was the only one left able to do that. Instead, like The Good Son he was, he turned the Imperium over to the High Lords, and went back to Ultramar to lead his Chapter. Run by a succession of greedy humans, the Imperium regressed to what it is today. If Guilliman had run it, you'd probably see a modern, effective Imperial Guard, an efficient Administratum, and he'd definitely have blocked the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, which is the most corrupt of the Imperium's institutions.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
IMO, Guilliman didn't want to take the Throne as the new Emperor because he couldn't command the complete trust and respect of his brothers. Only one Primarch had that: Sanguinius. I know I sound like a Sanguinius fanboy, but I'm not. My favorite Primarch is actually Magnus; I'm simply saying the truth - the only one who could have commanded the trust and respect of the remaining Primarchs to assume the Throne safely without risking fracture and a new civil war was Sanguinius, and he died on the Vengeful Spirit. Actually I would argue this was the reason the Emperor tried to leave Sanguinius behind - so he can take the Throne once everything was over. But he insisted on accompanying the Emperor. I've never really bought the idea that Sanguinius created a 'chink' in Horus' armor - the Emperor is not a god, but He has the power of one, and when He unleashed that without any restraint, Horus was obliterated, mind, body, and soul.
I don't think Guilliman cared too much about the approval of his brothers. He wasn't fazed by Dorn's temper tantrum, nor by being told to destroy Lorgar's planet. However, it was quite obvious, even to the other primarchs, that Guilliman was a born administrator and leader. Lorgar and Kol Phaeron talk about Guilliman being the one to inherit the Imperium if something were to happen to the Emperor specifically in First Heretic. And the Word Bearers hated Guilliman. But they knew that out of all the primarchs, Guilliman was the only one who, by the time the Emperor found him, was an emperor himself over the Ultramar systems. Sanguinius was charismatic and a good war leader, and you might argue he would have been a decent Warmaster, but there's a lot more to running an empire than just being charismatic and fighting wars. I don't even think, had he survived, Sanguinius would have even tried or wanted to take command. The primarchs were mostly war leaders and generals, not politicians. Well, except Lorgar, he was just an emo seminary student, lol. But Guilliman was both a general and a statesman.
No, it was definitely his deeply seated convictions about the Emperor's vision for humanity that would have kept him from taking the reins. He was [o]only[/i] concerned about serving the Emperor. He was The Good Son. While Russ was loyal like a dog, doing things without question or understanding, Guilliman was loyal because he understood and embraced the Emperor's vision. What he failed to do was see how he had to abandon the Emperor's vision in order to truly save the Imperium once the Emperor was gone. The crucial part of the Emperor's vision for humanity was being able to lead the Imperium. Obviously, confined to the Golden Throne he could no longer do that. Guilliman put the Imperium back together again, but when he was done, he assumed that it was his job to go back to being a general, not to being an emperor.
As far as buying the "chink in the armor" story, there's nothing to buy. In the original abbreviated fluff, that was what happened. As the story expanded, that piece of the fluff seems to have fallen by the wayside perhaps.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: I don't think Guilliman cared too much about the approval of his brothers. He wasn't fazed by Dorn's temper tantrum, nor by being told to destroy Lorgar's planet. However, it was quite obvious, even to the other primarchs, that Guilliman was a born administrator and leader. Lorgar and Kol Phaeron talk about Guilliman being the one to inherit the Imperium if something were to happen to the Emperor specifically in First Heretic. And the Word Bearers hated Guilliman. But they knew that out of all the primarchs, Guilliman was the only one who, by the time the Emperor found him, was an emperor himself over the Ultramar systems. Sanguinius was charismatic and a good war leader, and you might argue he would have been a decent Warmaster, but there's a lot more to running an empire than just being charismatic and fighting wars. I don't even think, had he survived, Sanguinius would have even tried or wanted to take command. The primarchs were mostly war leaders and generals, not politicians. Well, except Lorgar, he was just an emo seminary student, lol. But Guilliman was both a general and a statesman.
Perhaps, but claiming the Throne and imposing the Codex are two different matters. And while I still believe Sanguinius would have made a good Emperor, you're probably right. He would never have claimed the Throne on his own, unless it was unanimously offered to him by the loyal Primarchs, or was actually designated in person by the Emperor. His 'flaw' was humility - he considered himself as simply his father's servant, which is why he insisted on accompanying the Emperor, despite his and the Emperor's precognition warning of his death if he boarded the Vengeful Spirit. Instead of Guilliman taking the Throne, he should have replace Malcador as Lord of the Imperial Administration, Head of the Council of Terra, and Master of Assassins - though Russ and Dorn would have a stroke over the matter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/12 13:30:15
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
That's why I hate him. He's a horrible Mary Sue. His flaw is being "too perfect". That's just the worst writing imaginable.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
That's why I hate him. He's a horrible Mary Sue. His flaw is being "too perfect". That's just the worst writing imaginable.
He is better than the Emperor himself, that's awful.
I will actually go as far as saying he is the worst made hero ever due to how he is written (Marty Stu). But thinking of him would only give me an ulcer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/12 17:55:58
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Most mock worthy primarch hmmm I definately have to say konrad curze just because he got killed by a human assassin because he's so sorry for the betrayal. IF YOUR SO SORRY WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE? That being said a close second would be Lorgar for being so immature. You told me off for worshipping you as a god I'm going to tell on you to the chaos gods even though you told me not to worship you then I'm going to take it out on the ultrasmurfs because they were there and just stood there
Emperors children put your lash away mines bigger and we know how to use it
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
That's why I hate him. He's a horrible Mary Sue. His flaw is being "too perfect". That's just the worst writing imaginable.
Actually, if you really look at the character of Guilliman, he's one of the better written ones.
It's very easy to see him as a Mary Sue, until you realize that his failure is what led to the downfall of the Imperium. It's easy to hate people who seem to be without flaws. I've lived with it my entire life.
But in reality, all Guilliman lacked was a cartoony, cliche character hook. He wasn't perfect. He was arrogant, and proud, and gruff. His was hard to like by his fellow primarchs, seemed to lack any pity for weakness amongst his brothers, and while he was an amazing statesman, logistician and general, he lacked a truly greater vision. He simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.
Some of you seem to think that having a "flaw" or being "three dimensional" means being angry, or emo, or hairy and drunk, or die tragically. Want a Mary Sue? Sanguinius, lol. Dude had almost no obvious flaws whatsoever either. Solid general, great warrior, charismatic, amazingly good looking, well loved, among the favorites of the Emperor... The dude might as well have had a little gleam on his teeth and wear a sweater tied around his shoulders. And if he hadn't had toe good grace to die and taint his gene seed with a terrible curse, people would be calling him the Mary Sue of 40K. Guilliman is a very solid, three dimensional character. Just because he's more good than bad doesn't make him poorly written.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
idiot was a powerful psyker; most likely he used the same hypocritical excuse as his warp-damned wolf priests: We don't use the power of the Warp, we invoke the power of Fenris!
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
