Most mock-worthy primarch?

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**Asherian Command**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.

That's why I hate him. He's a horrible Mary Sue. His flaw is being "too perfect". That's just the worst writing imaginable.
Actually, if you really look at the character of Guilliman, he's one of the better written ones.

It's very easy to see him as a Mary Sue, until you realize that his failure is what led to the downfall of the Imperium. It's easy to hate people who seem to be without flaws. I've lived with it my entire life.

But in reality, all Guilliman lacked was a cartoony, cliche character hook. He wasn't perfect. He was arrogant, and proud, and gruff. His was hard to like by his fellow primarchs, seemed to lack any pity for weakness amongst his brothers, and while he was an amazing statesman, logistician and general, he lacked a truly greater vision. He simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.

Some of you seem to think that having a "flaw" or being "three dimensional" means being angry, or emo, or hairy and drunk, or die tragically. Want a Mary Sue? Sanguinius, lol. Dude had almost no obvious flaws whatsoever either. Solid general, great warrior, charismatic, amazingly good looking, well loved, among the favorites of the Emperor... The dude might as well have had a little gleam on his teeth and wear a sweater tied around his shoulders. And if he hadn't had toe good grace to die and taint his gene seed with a terrible curse, people would be calling him the Mary Sue of 40K. Guilliman is a very solid, three dimensional character. Just because he's more good than bad doesn't make him poorly written.

Sanguinius had humility, mercy, caring too much, and being too close horus, He was pretty much the weakest of the primarchs in being his own leader, he lacked foresight. Want a mary sue read Marneus calgar and Scarius the ultramarines now are mary sue. Back then no they were not. The mary sue primarchs I can't even name one, because none of them were super may sue like what the lore currently is for space marine chapters and chaos space marines.

**Veteran Sergeant**

But that's because you don't seem to understand what that means.

Guilliman was too obedient and too dedicated, that he couldn't adapt, or do the right thing in the end.

Look, it's obvious you've read 1d4chan one too many times, and you'll never understand the depth to the character. It's cool. But I find it hilarious that you fault Guilliman for being a Mary Sue without noticing his shining, perfect brother Sanguinius standing right beside him. A character written without a single flaw. Guilliman's biggest failure, in your eyes, was to have the gall of being awesome without having the decency to die a tragic death.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:Sanguinius had humility, mercy, caring too much, and being too close horus,

How so? He still resisted Horus's temptations. He might have been good friends with Horus, but that's not a flaw, lol. That's just a plot point. In the end, he stayed loyal, he fought to his death nobly against a foe he had no chance of defeating, and being a martyr. I mean, he couldn't be more generic. And that's not his fault. I vastly prefer the idea of the primarch as realistic characters, not with cartoonishly overstated character flaws and generic, stolen plot hooks. Like Guilliman, or Vulkan, Sanguinius was just a really powerful, genetically engineered super-human. They were all proud, and a little arrogant, and well known for being a bit more in touch with their human counterparts. It's hilarious that Guilliman gets all the hate, when the only thing that makes him any different from them is that he was just written to be slightly more successful as a general, and didn't die.

**Orblivion**

Asherian Command wrote:Sanguinius had humility, mercy, caring too much, and being too close horus, He was pretty much the weakest of the primarchs in being his own leader, he lacked foresight. Want a mary sue read Marneus calgar and Scarius the ultramarines now are mary sue. Back then no they were not. The mary sue primarchs I can't even name one, because none of them were super may sue like what the lore currently is for space marine chapters and chaos space marines.

I disagree. Sanguinius had humility, but mercy? The duality of the Blood Angels is one of the aspects that first drew me to them, and that comes from their primarch. He was wise and humble, but in battle he was an absolute holy terror and was merciless. I also don't understand how you can say he lacked foresight, one of his psychic gifts is named foresight. It wasn't that he had no dream of his own and simply did whatever the Emperor told him to, he truly shared the Emperor's dream for humanity.

**LoneLictor**

VeteranSergeant, you've read too much Matt Ward. And no, I don't think a character needs to be dark and angsty to be well written. But at the same time, a character can't have absolutely everything. Imagine Lord of the Rings if Aragorn were a better wizard than Gandolf, a better archer than Legolas, stronger than Gimli, more cunning than Saruman and more powerful than Sauron. And imagine that he destroys the ring by stomping on it and the series ends about 1000 pages earlier. Then imagine if I said he's a good character because his flaw is that he's too perfect. Then imagine that when you disagree with me, I claim you have no literary taste and that you're a loser who wastes all his time on 1d4chan.

There ya go.

Now I'm gonna add ya to my ignore list because its clear you've put an emotional investment into your support of the Ultramarines and that you'll never change yer mind. Any discussion on this matter would just result in flame wars and waht not.

**BrotherGnaeus**

I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?

**thakabalpuphorsefishguy**

Durza wrote:Russ. He wasn't a very nice person.

DarkStarSabre wrote:It's like a webcomic I read a few years back where someone pointed out that Star Wars would've been much, much more different if Yoda had just chucked Anakin a pack of trojans and told him to be prepared.

Or if Anakin hadn't, you know, force choked the person who he was whining about being in danger of dying...

Lames line in cinema history

Anakin: if your not with me... ( Me: Oh hes totally gonna say, if your not with me your against me) then your my enemy

O.O WTF?! Thats like saying a bird in hand is like crying over spilled milk

**BronzeJon**

Tadashi wrote:Who the hell said Russ was the wisest, strongest, and best general among them? Magnus (pre-Heresy) was the wisest, Ferrus Manus/Vulkan were the strongest, and Horus was the best general. Post-Heresy, Guilliman was the wisest, Vulkan was still the strongest, and Lion/Guilliman was the best general.

On-topic, most mock-worthy would be Russ, because he's a douche.

Russ was the only one to ever spar hand to hand with the emperor and be nearly his equal at it.

**Tadashi**

BronzeJon wrote:
Tadashi wrote:Who the hell said Russ was the wisest, strongest, and best general among them? Magnus (pre-Heresy) was the wisest, Ferrus Manus/Vulkan were the strongest, and Horus was the best general. Post-Heresy, Guilliman was the wisest, Vulkan was still the strongest, and Lion/Guilliman was the best general.

On-topic, most mock-worthy would be Russ, because he's a douche.

Russ was the only one to ever spar hand to hand with the emperor and be nearly his equal at it.

Ever heard of a guy named Horus? AKA, the greatest of the Primarchs before he fell?

Angron would rip Russ' head off with ease, and Sanguinius would cut his limbs off without breaking a sweat. He also got knocked out by a sucker-punch from Lion. And Magnus would have beaten him if only Magnus wasn't dividing his attention between Russ and preparing to transport the Thousand Sons and the City of Light to the Planet of the Sorcerers. If he concentrated on beating Russ, Russ would have been defeated with ease.

**McNinja**

Most mock-worthy Primarch? Nah. Sure, a couple make poor choices or handle some situations poorly, but that doesn't make them mock worthy. The mock worthy one is the Emperor, whose poor leadership allowed for so many mistakes to occur.

**Veteran Sergeant**

LoneLictor wrote:VeteranSergeant, you've read too much Matt Ward

lol. It's easy to say that to dismiss me, but it isn't true, and you know it.

But at the same time, a character can't have absolutely everything.

What everything? Guilliman was a statesman and leader, but he was arrogant and gruff, and not well liked enough by his brothers to be Warmaster. You keep saying that a good character can't have everything. But you continue to fail to mention how Sanguinius isn't worse in this regard than Guilliman, and you claim Sanguinius is a good character. At this point, you're just being stubborn because I've proven you wrong and you don't want to admit it.

Now I'm gonna add ya to my ignore list because its clear you've put an emotional investment into your support of the Ultramarines and that you'll never change yer mind. Any discussion on this matter would just result in flame wars and waht not.

Haha. Somebody steps up and says "Wait, that doesn't make any sense" and suddenly I have an "emotional investment in the Ultramarines". Jebus dude. Can your argument get any more pathetic? I didn't attack you for liking Sanguinius. I just said you were wrong about Guilliman, and it's pretty easy to do that without being a fanboy. I can give you some pretty in depth character analysis of quite a few of the primarchs. Do I have an emotional investment in them too? The only one here with an emotional investment here seems to be you, because you're the only one crying about it. Grow the heck up, lol. You act like a petulant child who got put in their place. Kinda like Lorgar.

**DA's Forever**

BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?

He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.

**JBrehaut**

Veteran Sergeant wrote: Grow the heck up, lol. You act like a petulant child who got put in their place. Kinda like Lorgar.

At risk of furthering the whole issue, I have to say, that was brilliant.. haha

**Tadashi**

DA's Forever wrote:
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?

He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.

What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.

Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".

**warrior lord**

magus
as cool as he is he only has one eye

**TermiesInARaider**

Tadashi wrote:
DA's Forever wrote:
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?

He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.

What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.

Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".

Good lord, this. FULL OF WIN!

**Tadashi**

TermiesInARaider wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
DA's Forever wrote:
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?

He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.

What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.

Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".

Good lord, this. FULL OF WIN!

Let's see, Lion, Magnus, Angron, Curze (surprisingly, the two couldn't hold their liquor), are all passed out, reeking of alcohol, while Russ, Dorn, Mortarion, and Horus are still struggling to prove who can drink more, while a gaggle of supposedly dead, and miraculously revived, and 'de-scarred' Sororitas cheer them on. Yes, lots of revived and beautified Sororitas are with the party, with the largest group going all bloody-nosed over Fulgrim and Sanguinius on the dance floor. Meanwhile, the Twins are playing a guessing game (who is Alpharius and who is Omegon) with another bunch of Sororitas, who are getting sulkier and sulkier with each minute (not that they really notice it, the room is time-stopped). The Emperor, Lorgar, Khan, and Perturabo are all having fun with truth or dare, and Manus seems to be having fun 'encouraging' the loser of each round to tell the truth. Drunken Corax and Gulliman don't seem to notice the booing of the Sororitas at their terrible singing at the karaoke stand, and while the Salamanders watch with their mouths open, Vulkan walks up to them, his arms around the shoulders of two Sororitas, and asks them: 'what took you so long?'

**Asherian Command**

Tadashi wrote:
DA's Forever wrote:
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?

He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.

What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.

Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".

Well as much as I would love to believe this.
I would agree it would be awesome.
But not impossible. Knowing how GW writes it's lore, they might say oh wait "WERE KIDDING! The primarchs are all still alive."

**liquidjoshi**

I want that to happen so, SO badly. Maybe if GW goes down and they kill 40K in the process. Of course, then we can have the second great crusade where they all go out and curbstomp the galaxy into submission.

**DA's Forever**

Tadashi wrote:
TermiesInARaider wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
DA's Forever wrote:
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?

He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.

What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.

Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".

Good lord, this. FULL OF WIN!

Let's see, Lion, Magnus, Angron, Curze (surprisingly, the two couldn't hold their liquor), are all passed out, reeking of alcohol, while Russ, Dorn, Mortarion, and Horus are still struggling to prove who can drink more, while a gaggle of supposedly dead, and miraculously revived, and 'de-scarred' Sororitas cheer them on. Yes, lots of revived and beautified Sororitas are with the party, with the largest group going all bloody-nosed over Fulgrim and Sanguinius on the dance floor. Meanwhile, the Twins are playing a guessing game (who is Alpharius and who is Omegon) with another bunch of Sororitas, who are getting sulkier and sulkier with each minute (not that they really notice it, the room is time-stopped). The Emperor, Lorgar, Khan, and Perturabo are all having fun with truth or dare, and Manus seems to be having fun 'encouraging' the loser of each round to tell the truth. Drunken Corax and Gulliman don't seem to notice the booing of the Sororitas at their terrible singing at the karaoke stand, and while the Salamanders watch with their mouths open, Vulkan walks up to them, his arms around the shoulders of two Sororitas, and asks them: 'what took you so long?'

This is 6th Ed. THIS NEEDS TO BE IT! Someone inform GW!

**dietrich**

Ferrus Manus, because he just couldn't keep his head on straight.

**King Pariah**

dietrich wrote:Ferrus Manus, because he just couldn't keep his head on.

fix'd

**GreatGunz**

I nominate Corax. The primarch of running away and calling it victory.

**blazinpsycho&typhooni**

GreatGunz wrote:I nominate Corax. The primarch of running away and calling it victory.

but orks do that.... and they win!

**GimbleMuggernaught**

I'm going to give what may be a rather controversial opinion: Sanguinius.

When he beamed up to Horus' battle barge and fought him, he didn't just die. He got mangled. So much so that Horus was able to kill him off and then almost immediately fight the most powerful warrior ever seen and STILL almost beat him. Now sure, Horus may have been glutted on the power of the chaos gods, however, if Sanguinius is really the ferocious fighter that everyone makes him out to be, I think that he would have at least slowed Horus down a bit. I have a hard time believing that a primarch would be able to easily slay another primarch unless the other one was a total chump.

**DA's Forever**

Angel Boy aint no chump, he eats bloodthirsters for breakfast. Without milk.

**Pilau Rice**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Guilliman was too obedient and too dedicated, that he couldn't adapt, or do the right thing in the end.

imperium secundus would have most believe otherwise

**biccat**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:[Guilliman] simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.

Really? The current Imperium is according to the Emperor's vision? Have you read the Horus Heresy books?

The Emperor's vision was nothing like the Imperium today. He wanted to stamp out religion and superstition, not embrace it as the immortal God-Emperor. He wanted to encourage mankind to pursue new directions, not shut down technological innovation. The Legions were supposed to be reflections of their Primarchs, not carbon copies of Guilliman's vision.

In short, the Imperium of the 41st millenium is nothing like what the Emperor envisioned. Maybe Gulliman kept the Imperium together and gave it some direction (bowing to the God Emperor), but he didn't do it in accordance with the Emperor's vision.

**Toast36**

biccat wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:[Guilliman] simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.

Really? The current Imperium is according to the Emperor's vision? Have you read the Horus Heresy books?

The Emperor's vision was nothing like the Imperium today. He wanted to stamp out religion and superstition, not embrace it as the immortal God-Emperor. He wanted to encourage mankind to pursue new directions, not shut down technological innovation. The Legions were supposed to be reflections of their Primarchs, not carbon copies of Guilliman's vision.

In short, the Imperium of the 41st millenium is nothing like what the Emperor envisioned. Maybe Gulliman kept the Imperium together and gave it some direction (bowing to the God Emperor), but he didn't do it in accordance with the Emperor's vision.

Hence the most mock worthy primarch is Rowboat Girlyman!

**Tadashi**

biccat wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:[Guilliman] simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.

Really? The current Imperium is according to the Emperor's vision? Have you read the Horus Heresy books?

The Emperor's vision was nothing like the Imperium today. He wanted to stamp out religion and superstition, not embrace it as the immortal God-Emperor. He wanted to encourage mankind to pursue new directions, not shut down technological innovation. The Legions were supposed to be reflections of their Primarchs, not carbon copies of Guilliman's vision.

In short, the Imperium of the 41st millenium is nothing like what the Emperor envisioned. Maybe Gulliman kept the Imperium together and gave it some direction (bowing to the God Emperor), but he didn't do it in accordance with the Emperor's vision.

And yet the Inner Circle of the Ordo Malleus which reports directly to the Emperor did nothing. Sounds a lot like the Emperor approved. He may not have liked it, but He understood the need and let it happen. Or did you forget the founders of the Adepta Sororitas being brought before the Emperor by the Custodians?

**biccat**

Tadashi wrote:...which reports directly to the Emperor did nothing...

Corpses are well known for being nonresponsive when you ask them questions.

Tadashi wrote:Sounds a lot like the Emperor approved...

How'd that go with the Word Bearers?