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2012/06/01 09:29:43
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Tadashi wrote:
They are. I cheered the Thousand Sons on throughout the Battle of the Fang. Shame Magnus didn't destroy the main gene-seed repository, just the labs. Wouldn't shed a tear if the Space Wolves became extinct. Actually, I might even throw a celebration - with members of the Inquisition and the Dark Angels as guests of honor.
I'll drink to that!
So, Russ for most mock worthy primarch 2012? You know it...
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Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. |
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2012/06/01 09:38:01
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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liquidjoshi wrote:Tadashi wrote:
They are. I cheered the Thousand Sons on throughout the Battle of the Fang. Shame Magnus didn't destroy the main gene-seed repository, just the labs. Wouldn't shed a tear if the Space Wolves became extinct. Actually, I might even throw a celebration - with members of the Inquisition and the Dark Angels as guests of honor.
I'll drink to that! So, Russ for most mock worthy primarch 2012? You know it...
So, who else shall we invite, apart from the Inquisition and the Dark Angels? The Ecclesiarchy are too stuffy to enjoy a party, although if we get the Sororitas drunk they should be more fun than normal. Although all this would automatically preclude Magnus and the Thousand Sons themselves. Oh well, I suppose we can't have everything after all...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/01 09:38:55
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/01 09:51:50
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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What about venue? I think Fenris would be a fitting place to celebrate the demise of the wolf born...
Perhaps Ahriman or Mr. Blackheart would be interested, just keep them in a seperate room to the loyalists.
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Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. |
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2012/06/01 09:59:43
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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liquidjoshi wrote:What about venue? I think Fenris would be a fitting place to celebrate the demise of the wolf born...
Perhaps Ahriman or Mr. Blackheart would be interested, just keep them in a seperate room to the loyalists.
Hmmm...a very good choice. EXALTED! As souvenirs, we will distribute 'recovered' Space Wolf relics and wulfen wall trophies. Well, this will guarantee that the Fourth Fellowship (*cough*Blood Ravens*rough*) will be present among the loyalists, and Magnus and his legion among the traitors. The central hall should be large enough, though we're going to have to be careful to keep the celebrants and their fleets from each other's throats. But then again, everyone's common dislike of the Wolves ought to keep things cordial.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/06/01 10:01:53
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/01 10:14:36
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Big Fat Gospel of Menoth
The other side of the internet
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I don't like to pick sides, but if there was one primarch who I had to say failed at his job, it's Lorgar. He got so focused and invested in his father's godhood he couldn't live any other way. The way he acted against Malcador and Guilliman when he was reprimanded just shows how badly he needed to be punished. He's envious, conceited and weak. But I wouldn't have him any other way because he makes a better character and foil this way.
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(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies |
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2012/06/01 10:58:27
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Huge Hierodule
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
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Interestingly, in the fairly recent WD where the Tervigon and all the Space Wolf stuff was released, if you go to the Space Wolves Finecast page, Njal Stormcaller and the Rune Priest are referred to by GW as psykers. I guess that's the final nail in the coffin of any credibility ol' Lemon Grass may have had.
Also, for the party, I'd invite the entire civillian populace of Prospero along, seeing as the Space Woves decided to go on a great big rape-kill-loot-fest. Doubly so considering that the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons bravely fought side by side in the Mountain that Eats Men...only for the Space Wolves to betray the Thousand Sons at Nikea.
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Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
 buddha wrote:I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
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2012/06/01 11:01:26
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Squigsquasher wrote:Interestingly, in the fairly recent WD where the Tervigon and all the Space Wolf stuff was released, if you go to the Space Wolves Finecast page, Njal Stormcaller and the Rune Priest are referred to by GW as psykers. I guess that's the final nail in the coffin of any credibility ol' Lemon Grass may have had.
Also, for the party, I'd invite the entire civillian populace of Prospero along, seeing as the Space Woves decided to go on a great big rape-kill-loot-fest. Doubly so considering that the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons bravely fought side by side in the Mountain that Eats Men...only for the Space Wolves to betray the Thousand Sons at Nikea.
Not to mention VANDALISM. In Rebirth Fourth Fellowship Thousand Sons investigating the ruins of the City of Light discover 'obscene' writings on the walls. So now we have ghosts in the party...hmmm, this should be fun.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/01 11:02:16
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/01 11:02:49
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Huge Hierodule
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
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Not sure I've read that one, but that's another thing to add to the list.
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Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote:I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
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2012/06/01 11:20:21
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Then of course there's that whole incident involving Space Wolves that openly turned to Chaos... the others are just closet heretics. Skyrar's Dark Wolves or something.
As for Russ himself, well... I'm thinking he's either a Chaos Lord somewhere or been Spawn'd.
Before anyone complains about the closet heretics comment, from the GK codex: "Logan Grimnar [...] did everything he could to inhibit the Inquisition's agents." Sounds pretty heretical to me. By doing this, they also caused the deaths of thousands more innocent people than would have been caused if they had left the Inquisition to it's work.
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Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice. |
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2012/06/01 14:57:04
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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King Pariah wrote:Could just as easily be a guy. No reason to call out a gender for a false, stereotypical generalization.
Hey now, nothing about that statement was false. Automatically Appended Next Post: Surtur wrote:I don't like to pick sides, but if there was one primarch who I had to say failed at his job, it's Lorgar. He got so focused and invested in his father's godhood he couldn't live any other way. The way he acted against Malcador and Guilliman when he was reprimanded just shows how badly he needed to be punished. He's envious, conceited and weak. But I wouldn't have him any other way because he makes a better character and foil this way.
For sure. A-D-B did a great job making Lorgar a believable, three dimensional character. Lorgar is definitely still a punk though, lol. Guilliman pegged him perfectly in KNF, and if you really want bad ass, it's the way Guilliman just got back up after being clubbed and brushed off Lorgar's temper tantrum as being too beneath him to respond to.
After all, even Tzeentch knew that Guilliman would kill Lorgar, because Lorgar was mentally weak. That's why he lied to him to keep him from going to Calth personally.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/01 14:59:32
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2012/06/01 20:34:54
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm
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Veteran Sergeant wrote: That's why he lied to him to keep him from going to Calth personally.
Who says he was lied to? Also, that wasn't Tzeentch, that was Kairos Fateweaver(Two headed bird dude.) Kairos said for that one moment he could speak nothing but the truth to Lorgar.
Also, I very much doubt you're going to see Lorgar whine at all in the next book he's in with Angron. Betrayer, I believe it's called.
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2012/06/01 20:41:53
 Tomb Kings.... In SPAAAAAAACE! (5500)
 Tomb Kings.... Not in SPAAAAAAACE! (2500)
 Bearers of the Word of Lorgar (2500) |
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2012/06/01 20:42:34
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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Come on man. Lorgar sucked at math. You should be better.
The first thing he says to Lorgar is that for every truth, he has to tell one lie. He then tells him that in this case, he only will tell the truth.
One truth: For every truth, tell one lie.
One lie: This time I'm only telling the truth.
Lorgar was a sucker.
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2012/06/01 20:43:52
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:Come on man. Lorgar sucked at math. You should be better.
The first thing he says to Lorgar is that for every truth, he has to tell one lie. He then tells him that in this case, he only will tell the truth.
One truth: For every truth, tell one lie.
One lie: This time I'm only telling the truth.
Lorgar was a sucker.
You have no proof to back that up. Kairos has two heads, one that speaks the truth, one that speaks lies, but they were allowed to both speak the truth in this instance. That's what the book says, and nowhere does it say anything different.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/01 20:44:28
Tomb Kings.... In SPAAAAAAACE! (5500)
Tomb Kings.... Not in SPAAAAAAACE! (2500)
Bearers of the Word of Lorgar (2500) |
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2012/06/01 21:17:39
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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Ahhh, not a "context" sorta guy huh? 
It's okay. We can't all be close readers.
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2012/06/01 21:33:06
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:Ahhh, not a "context" sorta guy huh?
It's okay. We can't all be close readers.
I know, those silly "facts" getting in the way of "what you think happened." Curse them.
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Tomb Kings.... In SPAAAAAAACE! (5500)
Tomb Kings.... Not in SPAAAAAAACE! (2500)
Bearers of the Word of Lorgar (2500) |
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2012/06/01 21:55:00
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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There's nl happy ending for you in this argument lol. Best to abandon your ship before it sinks because the only place it goes is "the proof is there, sorry you're too dumb to see it". Bestto go back and reread.
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2012/06/01 21:55:21
Subject: Re:Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Wondering Why the Emperor Left
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Guilliman and Lorgar have far more in common than either would ever admit and niether are unstopable badass's, I don't think either would like to be, rather they are visionaries for two different sides, obviously the Emperor liked Guilimans vision for the Imperium better than Lorgars which in my mind is the real reasons for the Word Bearers hatred for the UltraMarines. If you unstopable badass the candidates are Agron, Curze, Russ, or Corax.
I think Corax was the greatest of the Primarchs, because not only was he a tactical mastermind who understood that the best way to win is to attack the enemy where he is weak rather than throwing hordes of berzerkers and tanks at well fortified positions but he because he did the impossible, he rebuilt a destroyed Legion in the middle of the Horus Heresy, Corax the least mock worthy Primarch.
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2012/06/01 22:36:59
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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Corax? The guy who tried to make Instant Space Marines and then abandoned the Imperium jetting off headlong into the Eye of Terror quoting Edgar Allen Poe?
Can't possibly see what people would clown on him for. 
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2012/06/01 23:21:44
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:Corax? The guy who tried to make Instant Space Marines and then abandoned the Imperium jetting off headlong into the Eye of Terror quoting Edgar Allen Poe?
Can't possibly see what people would clown on him for.
Hey, at least he took sole responsibility for his mistake(s). Killing one's own children, I think that'd be enough to drive many people, even a primarch, over the brink.
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Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB |
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2012/06/02 04:18:31
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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liquidjoshi wrote:Then of course there's that whole incident involving Space Wolves that openly turned to Chaos... the others are just closet heretics. Skyrar's Dark Wolves or something.
As for Russ himself, well... I'm thinking he's either a Chaos Lord somewhere or been Spawn'd.
Before anyone complains about the closet heretics comment, from the GK codex: "Logan Grimnar [...] did everything he could to inhibit the Inquisition's agents." Sounds pretty heretical to me. By doing this, they also caused the deaths of thousands more innocent people than would have been caused if they had left the Inquisition to it's work.
The Chaos Space Wolf Lord: Vulfbad, the bro of Harald Deathwolf. (though vulfbad is dead now)
Also, no one really likes the inquisition (except some of the other SM, like all those folks who volunteer for Deathwatch) Automatically Appended Next Post: Can anyone lend me a helpful book about nicer/logical inquisitors for reading?
Ya know, just to edgercate myself a bit more.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/02 04:19:46
Seeing a squad of veterens swoop in in a Vendetta, secure the area, deliver that math assignment, and extract within 2 minutes would be freaking sweet.
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2012/06/02 04:24:17
Subject: Re:Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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ZSO SAHALL wrote:Guilliman and Lorgar have far more in common than either would ever admit and niether are unstopable badass's, I don't think either would like to be, rather they are visionaries for two different sides, obviously the Emperor liked Guilimans vision for the Imperium better than Lorgars which in my mind is the real reasons for the Word Bearers hatred for the UltraMarines. If you unstopable badass the candidates are Agron, Curze, Russ, or Corax.
I think Corax was the greatest of the Primarchs, because not only was he a tactical mastermind who understood that the best way to win is to attack the enemy where he is weak rather than throwing hordes of berzerkers and tanks at well fortified positions but he because he did the impossible, he rebuilt a destroyed Legion in the middle of the Horus Heresy, Corax the least mock worthy Primarch.
Lexicanum wrote:
Though grievously wounded he escaped the slaughter with a handful of loyal Space Marines, Corax was sent back to his legion's home world to rebuild his forces as soon as possible. The Primarch was desperate as the Imperium was collapsing, his Emperor needed warriors that Corax could not provide. Searching for a solution among the Librarium of the Ravenspire, Corax found the ancient books of genetic research providing the techniques used to create the first enhanced warriors of the Emperor, those techniques Corax duplicated to create Spaces Marines at a frightening rate. Despite the warnings he found amongst the old books, he started rebuilding his Legion. As the Legion started fighting alone, isolated from the other Imperial Forces, nothing is known for sure of the initial results, but an element of response came with the Space Wolves Saga of the Weregeld, which tells of ferocious monsters lead to combat by their Raven Guard Battle Brothers[Needs Citation].
During this period Corax led his warriors as he had always done, with small squads striking like lightning on the enemy weak spots. When ultimately he managed to rebuild his Legion, the Horus Heresy had ended and Roboute Guilliman's Codex edicts that the Legion had to be split in smaller Chapters. Knowing that Guilliman's vision was true, Corax split his forces but remained unable to forget the growling monsters that he had personally created. After pondering for hours as to what should be done he decided to administer the Emperor's peace, praying for their souls and his. Then wracked with guilt he locked himself in his chamber in the Ravenspire begging for the Emperor's mercy[Needs Citation].
Nobody knows if he received the absolution he required but a year to the day after he had locked himself in, he left the tower and Deliverance on a course toward the Eye of Terror, never to be seen again. His last recorded words were "never more."
The heresy had ended by the time he rebuilt. And his initial creations were abominations that he had to destroy. Then he flew away. He is definitely badass, but I wouldn't give him the most awesomest primarch award.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/02 04:25:38
DA:80S+++G+++M++B+I+Pw40k99/re#+D++A+++/fWD255R+++T(T)DM+
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
<small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic. |
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2012/06/02 17:58:02
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:Come on man. Lorgar sucked at math. You should be better.
The first thing he says to Lorgar is that for every truth, he has to tell one lie. He then tells him that in this case, he only will tell the truth.
One truth: For every truth, tell one lie.
One lie: This time I'm only telling the truth.
Lorgar was a sucker.
Which is a clever interpretation, of course, but we know BL is not that subtle. Plus, that's not what really happened, considering they had a lengthy conversation. And the fact that with Kairos, it's always one head speaking the truth and one speaking lies, leaving it up to you to figure out which is which. In this case, however, both heads spoke with one voice.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/06/02 18:02:21
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2012/06/02 20:30:04
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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RogueSangre
The Cockatrice Malediction
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers.
Wait, WHAT??? Utter reading comprehension FAIL. It's the Emperor who's the liar here. Basically the Emperor is waging a galaxy-wide war of conquest to forcibly convert the entire human race to a belief system that the Emperor himself knows is a lie from the very beginning. How do you think Lorgar's going react when he figures out that the Emperor chastised and humiliated him for not believing something that Emperor himself knew wasn't true? I'd kind of expect him to be somewhat disillusioned, wouldn't you?
Chaos doesn't corrupt people by lying, it corrupts them by telling them the truth. It's just that in 40k (or 30k) the truth is so horrible that to know it is to be damned. And that's the grimdark.
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2012/06/02 21:35:32
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Veteran Sergeant wrote:He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers.
Wait, WHAT??? Utter reading comprehension FAIL. It's the Emperor who's the liar here. Basically the Emperor is waging a galaxy-wide war of conquest to forcibly convert the entire human race to a belief system that the Emperor himself knows is a lie from the very beginning. How do you think Lorgar's going react when he figures out that the Emperor chastised and humiliated him for not believing something that Emperor himself knew wasn't true? I'd kind of expect him to be somewhat disillusioned, wouldn't you?
Chaos doesn't corrupt people by lying, it corrupts them by telling them the truth. It's just that in 40k (or 30k) the truth is so horrible that to know it is to be damned. And that's the grimdark.
The Emperor was trying to get rid of religion, and got mad when everybody was making him out to be a god, which he wasn't. But Lorgar was so desperate to worship something he turned to chaos.
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2012/06/02 22:15:28
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Chaos is real. It is the truth. Lorgar embraced it.
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2012/06/02 22:55:39
Subject: Re:Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
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You could say that the Truth involved in Chaos is that Chaos indeed exists. That they are Gods and that you should worship them is an obvious lie, tho.
Lorgar is, as currently written, amongst the most unbelievably boring and hateful characters of the setting. Crap I even have less problems with Angron...
I would not care if the last novel of the Word Bearers serie started with Russ and Guilliman storming the WB's planet, both killing all Traitors inside the first paragraph, and leave the 200 following pages to describe Russ's wolves urinating on the Heretic's corpses and Guilliman correcting all the typos Lorgar made writing his little novella, all the while commenting on how poor was his brother's synthax.
I would not care at all. Actually, that would make me litteraly love Russ.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/02 22:56:58
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
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2012/06/02 23:32:36
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Veteran Sergeant wrote:He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers.
Wait, WHAT??? Utter reading comprehension FAIL. It's the Emperor who's the liar here. Basically the Emperor is waging a galaxy-wide war of conquest to forcibly convert the entire human race to a belief system that the Emperor himself knows is a lie from the very beginning. How do you think Lorgar's going react when he figures out that the Emperor chastised and humiliated him for not believing something that Emperor himself knew wasn't true? I'd kind of expect him to be somewhat disillusioned, wouldn't you?
Chaos doesn't corrupt people by lying, it corrupts them by telling them the truth. It's just that in 40k (or 30k) the truth is so horrible that to know it is to be damned. And that's the grimdark.
Look at it this way: the gods and daemons exist because people believe in them right? So, the reverse is also true. If people stop believing in them, they cease to exist. If people believe the Imperial Truth is true, then it becomes true as well.
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I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/03 10:29:26
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Tadashi wrote:Look at it this way: the gods and daemons exist because people believe in them right? So, the reverse is also true. If people stop believing in them, they cease to exist. If people believe the Imperial Truth is true, then it becomes true as well.
Why do people keep perpetuating the falsehood that if no one believes in the Chaos Gods, they cease to exit? Granted, active belief and worship allow them to exert more of an influence, but they someone managed to come into existance without anyone in particular worshipping them. After the Long Night, the Psy Wars, etc., and by the time of the Great Crusade, only the most isolated and remote human settlements across the galaxy actively worshiped the ruinous powers (like that bureaucrat planet cleansed by the Dark Angels, or the savages on Cadia discovered by the Word Bearers), yet their strength was seemingly at an all-time high considering how often they interacted with the material realm. And anyway, unless the Emperor planned on killing himself and every powerful psyker once the conquest was complete, there would always be at least someone who was aware of the true nature of things.
Unfortunately, the skepticism and rationality promoted by the Imperial Truth offers no real power. The Imperial Creed, however, truly demonstrates the power of belief in the 40K universe (see saints).
Even Lorgar was initially horrified and repulsed by the truth he had discovered, but realized that all the things we find repugnant about Chaos become irrelevant once we achieve true enlightement and transcend our mortal shell and its limited scope of understanding. Chaos offers slavery, with a chance for apotheosis. The Imperial Truth only offers slavery.
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2012/06/03 10:53:41
Subject: Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
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Omegus wrote:Tadashi wrote:Look at it this way: the gods and daemons exist because people believe in them right? So, the reverse is also true. If people stop believing in them, they cease to exist. If people believe the Imperial Truth is true, then it becomes true as well.
Why do people keep perpetuating the falsehood that if no one believes in the Chaos Gods, they cease to exit? Granted, active belief and worship allow them to exert more of an influence, but they someone managed to come into existance without anyone in particular worshipping them. After the Long Night, the Psy Wars, etc., and by the time of the Great Crusade, only the most isolated and remote human settlements across the galaxy actively worshiped the ruinous powers (like that bureaucrat planet cleansed by the Dark Angels, or the savages on Cadia discovered by the Word Bearers), yet their strength was seemingly at an all-time high considering how often they interacted with the material realm. And anyway, unless the Emperor planned on killing himself and every powerful psyker once the conquest was complete, there would always be at least someone who was aware of the true nature of things. Unfortunately, the skepticism and rationality promoted by the Imperial Truth offers no real power. The Imperial Creed, however, truly demonstrates the power of belief in the 40K universe (see saints).
Yeah, that's pretty much how it ended up. Sorry if I put in a wrong way, but I just pointed out the Emperor's POV at the time. The old man's big miscalculation: Mankind needs to worship something greater than itself. He knew that much by the time the Brides of the Emperor were brought before Him by the Custodes during the Age of Apostasy. Even Lorgar was initially horrified and repulsed by the truth he had discovered, but realized that all the things we find repugnant about Chaos become irrelevant once we achieve true enlightement and transcend our mortal shell and its limited scope of understanding. Chaos offers slavery, with a chance for apotheosis. The Imperial Truth only offers slavery.
You do realize in real life something similar exists. Something, if it actually became reality, would be opposed by religions across the globe because it's 'dehumanizing'. Something called transhumanism. It takes a variety of forms: genetic enhancement, cybernetics, consciousness being uploaded into a computer, or even technological singularity. I know it's kinda strange coming from an Imperial fan, but given the choice in real life, I'd accept the technological singularity - a level of life surpassing both organic and synthetic, the strengths of both but the weaknesses of neither, 'ascension' to a higher level of evolution.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/03 10:58:49
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
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2012/06/03 11:58:55
Subject: Re:Most mock-worthy primarch?
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Big Fat Gospel of Menoth
The other side of the internet
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ZSO SAHALL wrote:Guilliman and Lorgar have far more in common than either would ever admit and niether are unstopable badass's, I don't think either would like to be, rather they are visionaries for two different sides, obviously the Emperor liked Guilimans vision for the Imperium better than Lorgars which in my mind is the real reasons for the Word Bearers hatred for the UltraMarines. If you unstopable badass the candidates are Agron, Curze, Russ, or Corax.
I find Guilliman and Lorgar in almost perfect antithesis. Guilliman is rational, Lorgar is impulsive. Guilliman deals in fact, Lorgar deals in mysticism. Guilliman governs, Lorgar worships.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:For sure. A-D-B did a great job making Lorgar a believable, three dimensional character. Lorgar is definitely still a punk though, lol. Guilliman pegged him perfectly in KNF, and if you really want bad ass, it's the way Guilliman just got back up after being clubbed and brushed off Lorgar's temper tantrum as being too beneath him to respond to.
After all, even Tzeentch knew that Guilliman would kill Lorgar, because Lorgar was mentally weak. That's why he lied to him to keep him from going to Calth personally.
Oh there is no doubt about it. That whole scene sums up Lorgar itself. The way he treats his peers and Malcador is petulant. How it takes daddy to come and spank him is perfect. The way Guilliman handles Lorgar speaks volumes.
And it is quite possible Tzeentch knew there was no outcome that would truly favor Lorgar and crush the Ultramarines completely due to Lorgar's brashness and hot head.
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RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies |
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