Oh, so we're talking 200-300 points for their command units now? At 1500 points, that's more than a fifth of their army concentrated into a unit that, while a great force multiplier, isn't exactly contributing a holy amount of firepower to the army.
1500pts? Who said
anything about 1500pt games? Have you even read
anything I've said? My list is 2000pts. My explanations are based on that points value. If someone were to field Creed X4 plasmagunners in his list it's 255pts. and is essentially the only command squad you'd need. Most top level
IG lists are using dual command squads. A basic command
HQ squad is 165pts. for one, or 330pts for two. That's not even 25% of a 2000pt force. Who's playing 1500pt games in competitive events? No one. My experience is based on games played at that level.
So.
Okay. Lemme get this right. Opponent took creed, outflanked plasmavets into my zone. Okay, that I can buy. But that Creed is pushing the front line up to get close enough to those outflanking units so he can give them BiD? Sorry, but that's... not gonna happen.
LOL. Why is that hard to grasp? Creeds command radius is 24". One simple move puts him in range with most of the board his forces are in. Lastly, I used Creed as an example that your Ravagers can face. I never said I've played against a Creed list. You assumed I did. I've played against dual command squad lists because that's what some top
IG lists use at 2000pts.
If Creed and his squad are pushing so aggressively forward, they're vulnerable to MSU wyches charging his transport and Beastmasters eating his face. Stop making up situations that, are in theory, quite bad, but in reality are never going to happen.
How are your
MSU wyches even getting across the field in one piece? How are your beastmasters getting around the Psychic battle squad from punking them out with their weak LD8? See? It's easy to add in other units to counter your lame example of what you "would" be doing.
Also, why wouldn't I move my ravagers every turn? I get a 5+ save for scooting a hundredth of an inch. Even if I have perfect LoS where I'm sitting from, I shift my vehicles around to benefit from the Jink save. Of course I'm always going to have that save. You'd have to be a fool not to.
Again, you keep missing the point. What if you went second and didn't move them? Who's to say you will be able to perfectly hide them every game? Who's to say that your opponent came prepared to bounce your 'jink' save with weapons that ignore it, or abilities that ignore it? At times like that the
FF is still useful. Which was my point. 30pts out of 2000pts isn't a big deal.
Oh no, they're wise for keeping fire warriors in their transports. Because yeah, if they drop those 8 fire warriors nearby, they'll drop a venom or two. And then the wyches will either tear them to shreds or tarpit them them in place for my beast pack to scoop up whenever I please.
Wow, you must play some pretty horrible Tau players then. How are your wyches even getting
close to Firewarriors? They have a 15" rapid fire range, premeasuring ensures you'll never reach them....you can only assault
2D6. Your vehicle is now dead and your wyches are sitting there with their asses in the wind? Are we even playing the same game?
LOL.
Our local tau player tried this in my second game of sixth, he killed a pair of venoms and then my beast pack just bounced back and forth, munching troops and transports alike. Now you're pretending all I have is Venoms in my army, unsupported by any other elements out there. I don't know about you, but I don't let my enemy isolate and destroy small elements of my army.
I'm not pretending anything.
You are assuming my opponents are idiots when they aren't. You are the one throwing unit choices around in what you apparently have in your list. I'm reacting based on your assumptions. I'm reporting based on what
I'm taking and armies
I've faced. We are also playing armies that are different in size. If the information isn't helpful to you...move along.
No. No I don't think so. I made a comment that Flickerfields aren't worth their points on Ravagers,
And I've stated that in the context of
my army and the meta in my area....
they are
and you have since named two valid situations where Flickerfields are worth it (Hydras and Hive Guard) and have since been trying to come up with obtuse, improbable situations to prove a point, like Creed leading the charge just to keep up with an outflanking unit so he can give them one specific order.
No, actually I'm pointing out how obtuse you sound by magically having your Ravager in cover all the time...or still failing to ignore the damn obvious in the fact that you aren't going first in a game all the time.
And you must play your wyches different than mine. I generally disembark within 6" inches of a unit, mostly out of habit from fifth, partially to guarantee the charge in spite of random rolls.
You're right, I do play them differently. Like I said, have you read what I posted about my list? They are
terrible assault units now unless you take 15 (not like they were that great before).
Iuse them as 5 man squads to attack vehicles or to hide them on objectives. If you are getting your Venoms close enough where your wyches are within 6" of a unit that means you must be moving them extremely fast to reach on the following turn...which means you are moving over 6" to do so which leads to this situation: A.) you've moved 12" in which case your 12 shots from the venoms are snap shots (which means not enough shots to dent what's behind an Aegis.). B.) You've moved them flat out which means no shooting and you are now in range of pretty much everything your opponent has to shoot with. Good luck trying to deliver your assault cargo buddy.
LOL.
So okay, the entire enemy army is behind these aegis defense lines that are not only long enough to accomodate them but have leftover sections to shore up their flanks? Again, I'm not buying that. Especially since the rulebook specifically states how much defense line you can buy.
Who said anything about putting an
entire army behind it? I didn't...
you did. I said that my opponents were putting units that benefit from it's abilities the best behind it. You keep putting words in my mouth at every turn.
It's usually enough for two twenty-man squads cramped together or two spread out smaller squads. There are always going to be units who aren't getting that cover, simply because the cover is finite, it is not unlimited. If you cannot fire upon the flanks of the protected units, fire upon the unprotected units to open up holes in their lines. It doesn't seem like rocket science to me.
Did you ever hear about bookending your flanks with Vehicles, transports with guys in them, and screening units ? Seriously? How hard is it to grasp basic concepts of deployment? You consistently assume the opponent is an idiot.
Why do I only have one venom? Did I grab the wrong army case on the way out?
Sigh...really? No fool, I fully expect to face 3-4 Venoms most
DE list. My point was about wasting 12 shots to kill 2-3 models out of cover...that's stupid.
So your grotesques have only gotten into combat 4 times? Man, you said they'd performed well in every game you played! That seems like quite the contradiction.
Seriously, why do I even bother giving this a response? My Grotesques have no issues getting into combat...that's why I field them in favor of other assault units. If you've been actually reading what I type vs. putting words in my mouth you might realize that. Just to bring you up to speed: I don't place larger assault units in transports anymore as they rarely reach their intended targets anymore. In the many games I've played, this is the conclusion I've reached. This means wyche squads stay at 5 models for me and are only used to go after vehicles of opportunity or to camp on objectives..until further testing proves otherwise. Like I said,
all my information is based on games played.
Not theory. My games are also tested against solid firepower lists...something that we'll see more of in this edition since
CC took such a kick to the dingus.
Either way, my beast pack has yet to fail me in combat, especially with The Baron soaking up small arms fire at the front, and transferring str 6+ wounds to Khymera with a 2+ LoS!.
That's good that you can attempt that combo, but the Baron has only 2 wounds, and the unit can still be stripped from the flanks and or blast sniped with indirect weapons. Remember, the
IG? Yeah, Manticores make short work of that unit. Same goes for shooty based Eldar. Face it, breaking cover in this edition punishes our assault units more than ever before because we lost the ability to alpha strike with our assault elements.
I haven't tried the whole raider wyches yet, and I doubt I will in this edition for the exact reasons you mentioned.
Okay, but you've been railing on me saying you have no problems with wyche delivery? Which is it? Try it. It's harder than you think.
Which was my whole point!
But I have plenty of other units to use for CC. Hell, I'd even throw a 6 man unit of Reavers against a unit of Dire Avengers or Veterans. Between Hammer of Wrath, the Champion with a venom blade and their wych statline, chances are they'd win that combat and tie up that unit from shooting for a turn.
This assumes you can put them into the position to assault in the first place. Reavers are no better than they were before vs. shooting. They gained only moderate buffs, but not enough to use them as a combat element. They also don't have grenades. I want to like Reavers, but I'm afraid they aren't any better than they were before. I'm going to try using them with
WWPs so they can at least survive long enough to shoot something. In my test games Reavers haven't lasted very long as they are some of the first units to be targeted.
Also, I thought we were talking about an IG mechanized list? That's pushing up the board with Creed to use BiD on outflanking plasmavets?
No, you
assumed that. I just said that the
IG lists I've faced are using two command squads like most top lists do. No mention of a full mech list was given. As for Creed, it was an example of showing you that..yes in fact there are ways to get to your always hiding or always moving Ravagers. Creed can outflank more than just a plasmavet squad. He can outflank other stuff of value as well. Hellhounds being the scariest since the 6th edition increased the reach of it's gun now.
So you're telling me that they're going to sit back instead? But that directly contradicts what you said earlier!
LOLz. Man, you sure have a knack for assuming and putting words in people's mouths. That's not what I said. Besides, the
IG opponent only really has to hold back for 2 turns. More often than not most of your stuff will be dead, and he can move out to mop up.
Especially since he'd have to sit back to use the rallying order on units that have gone to ground.
What the hell are you talking about? Creed's command radius is 24"! Even if he moves forward a bit his well within range of just about everything in his army. Have you even played a game vs. Creed, or have used him? I've done both.
And if their entire army, or at least the ones hidden behind Aegis lines, goes to ground, well that sounds like a damn good turn to me.
Lolz. I'll chalk this up to: you have no idea.
Creed has 4 orders yeah, but he's not going to be able to get all of those units back on their feet, especially not in time to avoid a beast pack charge.
Creed can do this with little to no problems...and the beasts most likely will never reach their intended targets because they'll be dead, or falling back. Creed can do all of this from the safety of a vehicle. But enough about Creed as I haven't faced a Creed list yet, but as an
IG player as well, I know what it's capable of.
Take Voidravens, not Razorwings. Nice try though.
Okay, and how many of those are you bringing in your 1500pts?...and yet somehow I'm the one that's clueless about points? Got more than one? No? Most likely your one flyer dies or is crippled the turn it arrives if you can't shut down the Quad Gun.
Also, who's manning the Aegis defense line?
Reading fail. I already stated this. No Creed isn't manning the line, but a vet squad or two manning one is quite nasty as it is now
BS 4 on the Quad gun...or if you'd actually read what I say...I said Exarchs with Crackshot (which are
BS 5!). I've also seen Farseers used to man it as well.
Creed? But he's gotta be in the middle of the board to give orders to outflankers! Those vague eldar you're talking about? I'm still not quite sure how the Eldar got Plasmavets and Creed on their side, and why they've all coalesced together into one terribly apocalyptic situation for me.
That's because you've assumed things and put words in my mouth like someone that can't read very well. But for the clueless, I'll help you out. The two armies I've been predominately testing against have been
IG and Eldar. Both with Aegis lines. Does that make sense now? And no, I haven't faced a Creed list, but used it as an example of how it's possible to pop your seemingly invincible 'jinked' ravagers with a modicum of thought.
If that's what you're playing against, I think your friends are cheating you, buddy. Allied detachments can only take few very limited choices after all, and allies of convenience can't join each other's squads.
Who the hell said anything about allies? Heck, I haven't even reported my findings with vs. those types of lists yet as I've only played 2 games in which allies were used against me.
If they're fielding all of this artillery you keep touting about in on game, I think they may just be over the points limit too.
Again, you are assuming things. Eldar Artillery is dirt cheap for what it does, and Vibrocannons have gotten very useful again. 2x3 Vibro batteries with 3 warwalkers and farseer support easily fits behind an Aegis line...and absolutely will shred gak. All for the rock bottom price of 480pts. That still leave plenty of other crap to put in the list at 2000pts. To be honest, I really don't think you are testing this stuff as rigorously as I am.
snipped the bloviating
The points limits are 2k per side. A standard tournament sized list...with tournament list type builds...but also adapted to shift in meta in 6th.
Yes, they can do bad things to my army, but they're not going to wipe me off the board in a single turn.
Maybe not everything off the board in one turn, but crippled significantly where the ability to recover is impossible...and this isn't even taking into consideration how lopsided the Secondary Objectives can get...specifically first blood.
Also, thanks for calling me a 40k god. I love it when people are willing to admit their folly and venerate me as is proper.
I believe it was more of a backhanded comment than anything else.
LOL. but whatever helps you sleep at night.
I love it when people are willing to admit their folly and venerate me as is proper.
). I will be having a few games this weekend. I'll post the reports.
