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A Town Called Malus wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:I think you would be able to still use your void mine...

After all, this edition is all about being "cinematic" and what's more cinematic than the jet screaming over their heads dropping a huge bomb before screeching off into the sky (probably whilst doing some aeronautical acrobatics) to return and attack again?

The pilot is just that damn good

Damn skippy he is.

Now he just needs a model.

On quasi-related note, I'm going in today for another round of 6th edition experimentation. I'll be borrowing quite a few models from the display case to use as proxies. This is why you make friends with the manager. Anyways, this is the list I'll be using;

Baron Sathonyx

(4x) Wyches
5 bases
Haywire grenades
Venom w/ extra splinter cannon

(2x) Reaver Jebikers
6 bases
2 heat lances

Beast Pack
3 beastmasters
5 khymera
4 razorwing flocks

(2x) Voidraven Bomber
2 Shatterfield missiles
Flickerfield

May throw some bits and ends around, seeing as I'm about 70 points shy of 1500. I'm pretty confident about this list though. The Baron's synergy with beastpacks has gotten far better since they move at the same speed now, and he comes with fleet so he doesn't prevent them from rerolling their charge distance. I'll let you know how it all turns out though. If I had a camera, I'd take pictures of the menagerie of models that'll compose this insane idea.

The baron gives the beasts grenades. Another idea I like is taking the baron with jetbikes. Although he cannot turbo with the bikes, he can assault with them, gives them grenades and his stealth gives the bikes a 3+ stock coversave so they need not turbo.

Lokas wrote:Damn skippy he is.

Now he just needs a model.

On quasi-related note, I'm going in today for another round of 6th edition experimentation. I'll be borrowing quite a few models from the display case to use as proxies. This is why you make friends with the manager. Anyways, this is the list I'll be using;

Baron Sathonyx

(4x) Wyches
5 bases
Haywire grenades
Venom w/ extra splinter cannon

(2x) Reaver Jebikers
6 bases
2 heat lances

Beast Pack
3 beastmasters
5 khymera
4 razorwing flocks

(2x) Voidraven Bomber
2 Shatterfield missiles
Flickerfield

May throw some bits and ends around, seeing as I'm about 70 points shy of 1500. I'm pretty confident about this list though. The Baron's synergy with beastpacks has gotten far better since they move at the same speed now, and he comes with fleet so he doesn't prevent them from rerolling their charge distance. I'll let you know how it all turns out though. If I had a camera, I'd take pictures of the menagerie of models that'll compose this insane idea.

I like this idea. I would probably take Razorwings over a Voidraven, but it looks very fast and hard hitting.

I ended up throwing one cluster caltrops on each reaver squad. Would've added two per squad, but I'd be points over. I may see if I can cut anything to fit it, if not, they performed phenomenally today regardless. My one and only game of the day was against Blood Angels. We played Purge the Alien on short table edges.

For my warlord trait, I went with personal and ended up with Master of Manoeuvre. Initially, I thought this was to be useless. On the contrary, it tore a hole in my opponent's flank and scored me multiple kill points. Thanks to a suggestion from the manager at my FLGS, I attached Baron to a bike unit and had them outflank. They'd come in on turn 3 and nuke a Vindicator as soon as they came on. The 3+ cover save (as exergy mentioned) kept them from wilting to return fire. I think the Personal trait tree is exceedingly good for the Baron in this list, seeing as he has options as to where he wants to be. He can make the most out of whatever roll he gets.

That said, I've found my sweet spot with the Voidravens. I'll be taking this kit for them in the rest of my games. Two shatterfields is really all you need to really decimate an enemy infantry unit. I'd like to see if you'd need to fire more than one at an MSU T3 army, but I'm thinking not. My opponent's list was two vindicators, a storm raven, tycho and a small death company squad and some assault marines with jump packs. Two of the assault marine squads got absolutely savaged by the voidraven fire, and were cleanly picked up by the venoms. His stormraven proved to be nigh useless. It came in turn 2, wiped a venom off the table and wiffed trying to hit a second but was unable to fire upon a target the rest of the game. I moved everything within 18" of his table edge by aggressively pushing everything up the left side of the board so his fliers simply passed over me whenever they came on from reserves. My own fliers were incredibly dominant. They decimated infantry as soon as they showed up on turn 2, soaked up an impressive amount of return fire from the Stormraven thanks to their 5++, killed the other vindicator on turn 3 by dropping void mines and then combined their 3 void lances to destroy the Stormraven on turn 5.

Haywire grenades actually aren't half bad for targeting fliers. Since they're a shooting attack measured from the hull, you're liable to get within range from the top of the venom's hull quite often. Especially if you're dancing around its blind spots. Being close enough to throw the haywire grenades also forced a rude choice on my opponent. Zoom and miss out on a turn of shooting, or hover to shoot and get swamped by wyches? Very handy choice. The haywires ended up forcing the stormraven into locked velocity and stripping a hull point, making it all too easy to avoid since it could only move cruising speed the rest of the game.

I ended up losing 2 venoms, a wych squad, a full half of the beast squad and quite a few reavers (I got too reckless with them as the game went on) but at the end of the game, all that remained of his army was tycho with one wound, and 2 death company locked in combat with the baron, the beasts and 2 wych squads. He would have benefit greatly from sanguinary priests, though the sheer number of saves forced by the combination missiles and splinter cannon fire is sickening. Those two assault squads just evaporated in the first few turns, and the third assault squad was reduced by a full third from concentrated bladevane attacks before being assaulted by Baron and the beasts at the same time. The beastmaster squad is as good for allocation as it was in 5th. I paraded them up the board in an upside down L formation. One line was razorwing flocks, all facing the assault marines to soak up small arms fire while the other part of the formation was the khymera facing that vindicator looming nearby. It's a bit trickier now, but just as good.

My overall thoughts for the battle? Dark Eldar fast attack is incredibly good now. Incredibly good. Baron Sathonyx is a much more enticing option than before and makes a fantastic warlord. Popping from a table edge to vaporize a vindicator before splitting off to help the beastmasters while reavers made risky bladevane attacks was incredibly effective. Venoms are still amazing. I've found the sweet spot for Voidravens methinks. I didn't miss my three ravagers in the least.

I'm definitely going to start building this army up for myself, now that I've played it with proxies. It's a very flexible, hard hitting list. It means further prolonging me actually painting models, but ah. I'm so pleased with today's results that I'll get over it.

stewy37 wrote:
I like this idea. I would probably take Razorwings over a Voidraven, but it looks very fast and hard hitting.

It depends on what you primarily want to use your fliers for tbh. Without allies Dark Eldar look like they will really struggle against enemy fliers (no Skyfire and Twin Linked units), which means your best way of dealing with them is taking your own fliers. Ironically enough the Voidraven Bomber is better for anti air than the Razorwing Fighter since its Lances are more powerful. If their aren't many fliers to deal with (or you have that covered with allies/forts) then you show up, unload everything (since you only brought 2 missiles), jink to avoid damage in return (which saves you 10 points for Flickers) and then fly off the board next turn while dropping your bomb. If you need to deal with fliers you make sure you arrive after them (which can include just flying straight off the board) and drop them as quickly as you can with S9 Lances.

I've got a couple of combos that I want to try out, the first is an Archon with 2 Pistols, Haywires, Djinn Blade and Shadowfield. A Soul Trap is optional, but definitely worth considering since it works with his Pistols as well so you can finish off MCs after your Venoms weaken them or Precision Shot characters out of units. Aside from looking awesome he is going to be a death sentence to almost every vehicle in the game, if he is within 6" he is almost certainly going to be able to get the charge to follow up the 2 BS7 S8 shots to the face. On top of that he still has the 2+ save which makes him a pain to deal with and still has a power weapon to threaten Marines. You could possible even get away with using the Djinn Blade as a Power Axe if you want to take on Terminators since its just listed as a Power Weapon. 2 of these guys with small Haywire Wych units as escorts could be fun.

There are heaps of combos with the Baron now due to the way the USRs work now. Actually being able to keep up with Beasts means I doubt you will see Hellions used much anymore, sure they are scoring, but Khymerae are cheaper, hit harder and are much more difficult to kill (particularly in combat, where you bleed combat res otherwise) even without factoring in how amazing Razorwings are. Hit and Run in particular makes Beasts insanely good, they won't get tarpitted by Dreads and can bounce around taking out weaker units to quickly make themselves Fearless while avoiding any enemy deathstars they can't deal with (basically just Paladins. Unfortunately their aren't many Fearless characters which can keep up with them (Baharroth lolz), but I think Karandras lets them Infiltrate which is pretty stupid (just buy him, then put Defence Lines in the middle of the board to hide behind). The only real change imo is that bringing 1-2 Clawed Fiends is probably worthwhile to run at the front of the unit to absorb some wounds (since if you have cover they do it much better than Khymerae).

If I can run Allies my list for my next game (2k) will probably look something like this:

Farseer, Doom, Warding
3 DAVU in 3 Falcons with EML (no Holos, but 5+ cover is fun)
2 x 5 Dragons in Serpents with Double Cannons
Autarch with Laser Lance, Mandiblaster, Fusion Gun and Jetbike

+

Baron
Beast Pack with 5 Masters, 10 Khymerae, 1 Clawed Fiend, 4 Razorwings
2 x 5 Blaster Warrior in Raiders (or Haywire Wyches, probably 1 of each)
Voidraven with 2 Shatterfields and Night Shields

So the Autarch, Baron and Beasts make a very mobile Deathstar (it can't run, but still re-roll charges since the Autarch still has Fleet despite being a Jetbike), which is almost certainly going to hit combat by turn 2 and with Doom is going to chop up almost anything it touches. It kills ~6 Terminators on the charge or half a unit of Nob Bikers. Hit and Run means you bounce out at the end of your opponents turns and ensures you don't get bogged down (notably by Dreads, which can still be hurt by Haywires on the Autarch and Rends before you jump out and shoot it dead) and maximum benefit from the Laser Lance and charge bonuses. The Autarch will probably be the Warlord, which gives the Beasts ways of getting Furious Charge or FNP (which make them very very nasty) or Outflank (which combines nicely with his reserves buff, particularly on short edge deployment against gunlines). Its only obvious weakness is Ld, its only Ld10 but becomes Fearless once you kill 3 infantry units. With the new regroup rules and majority I6 you still have a reasonable chance of getting away from assaults and rallying straight away if you manage to end up facing a unit you can't kill.

Other than that you have a Seer for Psychic defence (who can still swap for Divination if you are facing a Flyer list etc), 3 solid scoring units + 2 more fragile ones, 2 Melta units to remove Land Raiders and the Voidraven for anti air/general troubleshooting (which shows up on a 2+ turn 2).

i would just point out that bombing runs, and the voidravens void mine are done in the movment phaze, while its on table. therefore its a legit move to bomb as your leaving the table. (because to leave, you have to move off the board edge)

as for DE fast attack..... my opinion on bikes and hellions has generally been poor.... but im willing to revisit them in 6th.

i will say i definitly agree the bombers and fighter are pure win, and now almost on par if not better then ravagers.

Powerguy wrote:
You could possible even get away with using the Djinn Blade as a Power Axe if you want to take on Terminators since its just listed as a Power Weapon.

Very sticky as the Djinn Blade is probably an unusual power weapon, and thus AP 3. The only way you might be able to argue it is that it is not a weapon, its a piece of wargear. Probably cant do that though.

Note though that you can look out sir the rebelling blade, which is good if you have a soul trap as Str6 attacks incoming on your archon are bad.

Yeah its a pretty safe to use now, you always got the 2+ Shadowfield against it but now you get a 2+ LOS on top of that (and of course still have to wound).

@ Darthspader. As a Fast Attack choice Hellions shouldn't even be considered, Beasts were already better and the gap has widened in 6th now that Beasts can climb buildings (and in fact ignore terrain completely aside from I penalties). As Troops with the Baron they are ok, but even when they are scoring Beasts probably outclass them. Bikes on the other hand are certainly viable, they were usable in 5th generally got buffed all round in 6th.

Ravagers definitely still have their place. They are still cheaper than the fliers and put out more anti tank firepower from earlier in the game. Imo part of the reason the fliers are so attractive for Dark Eldar is that they don't have many other options to deal with fliers otherwise.

I have played this list twice and it's trashed my opponents.

HQ:
Malys
Haemonculus with Venom Blade, Liquifier
Haemonculus with Venom Blade, Shattershard
Baron

TROOPS:
5 man wyche squad with haywires mounted in dual cannon Venom

5 man wyche squad with haywires mounted in dual cannon Venom

5 man wyche squad with haywires mounted in dual cannon Venom

5 man wyche squad with haywires mounted in dual cannon Venom

ELITES:
10 man Grotesque squad with Aberration and Liquifier

3 man Trueborn with 2 DLs

3 man Trueborn with 2 DLs

HEAVY

Talos with Chainflails and TL heatlance

Talos with Chainflails and TL heatlance

Ravager with FF X3 DLs

Ravager with FF X3 DLs

Ravager with FF X3 DLs

Total: 1997pts

Uses 2 FoC to get the extra firepower, etc from the heavy slots.

Having the Grotes be immune to psychic BS is good, 3 tokens right away is good, Malys being able to reposition units is good, Baron +1 to go first and giving the grotes grenades, stealth, and HnR is hilarious. Tarpitting this unit is impossible...HnR makes the unit fast at times. The unit has 6 characters to deal with challenges, and 3 flame weapons that wall of death chargers + defensive grenades.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
10 man Grotesque squad with Aberration and Liquifier

put a venom blade on the aberration. if you are going to pay the +10pts for +1 attack then why not pay another 5pts, get an additional +1 attack for 2 CCWs(read it, it does not say replace) and always wound on 2+(usually with a reroll)

put a venom blade on the aberration. if you are going to pay the +10pts for +1 attack then why not pay another 5pts, get an additional +1 attack for 2 CCWs(read it, it does not say replace) and always wound on 2+(usually with a reroll)

Because he's Str5 (which is good enough in most cases), and because I don't have the points. I suppose I could replace the shattershard with a Liquifier and use the spare points to do so, but I haven't seen that it's necessary that the Aberration gets a venom blade. LOL.

His strength 5 is exactly why you want him to get a venom blade.

Against MEQ, without it, he wounds on a 3+

Against MEQ, with it, he wounds on a rerollable 2+

You will only fail 1/36 to wound rolls.

This is for five measly points

Furthermore, The Liquifier Gun is reusable and cheaper.
Also better overall in my eyes.

So yes - drop shattershard, give liquifier, make your Abberation hit with 6 attacks on the charge, that have a 97% chance of wounding when they connect.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

put a venom blade on the aberration. if you are going to pay the +10pts for +1 attack then why not pay another 5pts, get an additional +1 attack for 2 CCWs(read it, it does not say replace) and always wound on 2+(usually with a reroll)

Because he's Str5 (which is good enough in most cases), and because I don't have the points. I suppose I could replace the shattershard with a Liquifier and use the spare points to do so, but I haven't seen that it's necessary that the Aberration gets a venom blade. LOL.

str5 wounds plague marines and bikes on 4+ and MC on 5+. We are bound to see more of both ins 6th.

I would drop the FF off one of the ravagers. You usually get the 5+ jink anyway so you dont really need it.

Actually, you could drop the FF off all three ravagers. They're unlikely to get assaulted, and provided you move even the least bit, you'll e getting your Jink save. This may change if we see a rise in ignore cover weapons with longer ranges, but as of right now the only serious threat to those Ravagers would be Hydras. We'll be seeing less of them in this meta though, for while they remain frightfully effective against DE, their niche has narrowed significantly.

Lokas wrote:Actually, you could drop the FF off all three ravagers. They're unlikely to get assaulted, and provided you move even the least bit, you'll e getting your Jink save. This may change if we see a rise in ignore cover weapons with longer ranges, but as of right now the only serious threat to those Ravagers would be Hydras. We'll be seeing less of them in this meta though, for while they remain frightfully effective against DE, their niche has narrowed significantly.

So far for me... This has been a bad idea not getting FF. My opponent always steals initiative and my ravagers/raiders are helpless

Getting cover is far easier for Ravagers these days since you only need 25% coverage. You can park them in a staggered formation parked sideways, where a piece of terrain blocks 25% or more of the forward most ravager, giving a cover save, and that ravager blocks 25% of a ravager behind it, giving a cover save and so on and so forth. It's easy to get first turn cover saves without having to rely on jink. Plus, their narrow hull has always helped them deny LoS.

His strength 5 is exactly why you want him to get a venom blade.

Against MEQ, without it, he wounds on a 3+

Against MEQ, with it, he wounds on a rerollable 2+

You will only fail 1/36 to wound rolls.

This is for five measly points

He's strength 6 on a charge. Rarely does this unit see combat for longer than a round. Thus, most of the time they are getting the charge...or outright killing what they charge. This unit so far has performed admirably even vs. terminators. Nothing locks this unit down until the baron dies...which is unlikely to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Furthermore, The Liquifier Gun is reusable and cheaper.
Also better overall in my eyes.

So yes - drop shattershard, give liquifier, make your Abberation hit with 6 attacks on the charge, that have a 97% chance of wounding when they connect.

I like having the shard as a surprise when someone attempts a charge with something big. But yes, I see your point. I'll try a few games without it and see if it has any significant difference to how the unit deals out damage


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Actually, you could drop the FF off all three ravagers. They're unlikely to get assaulted, and provided you move even the least bit, you'll e getting your Jink save. This may change if we see a rise in ignore cover weapons with longer ranges, but as of right now the only serious threat to those Ravagers would be Hydras. We'll be seeing less of them in this meta though, for while they remain frightfully effective against DE, their niche has narrowed significantly.

FF help if you don't go first. Additionally, they are helpful vs. the crackshot crap I have to face. Lastly, if it saves my ravagers...and makes my opponent have to shoot more shots in them to put them down...all the better. The 'jink' save isn't all that great. FFs now bounce failed terrain tests, etc. It's still a useful piece of wargear, dropping them adds 30pts back into my army...which doesn't buy me anything more of use.

CaptKaruthors wrote:He's strength 6 on a charge. Rarely does this unit see combat for longer than a round. Thus, most of the time they are getting the charge...or outright killing what they charge. This unit so far has performed admirably even vs. terminators. Nothing locks this unit down until the baron dies...which is unlikely to happen.

At strength 6, you're wiffing one out of six of your wounds. More if you're fighting a monstrous creature or a Necron CC unit.

With a venom blade, you only wiff one out of thirty-six wounds. Plus, I mean. It's five points. I really don't see why you wouldn't take it. It's insanely cheap, and multiplies your killing power by a magnitude of 6. I don't see why you're bringing up prolonged combat, because that's a really irrelevant point. Plus, a venom blade greatly assists in your first turn face smashing as you can get rerolls to wound against Tyranid's big bugs. And, again, I really feel this can't be overstated.

It's only five points. There's literally no reason not to pay for it. It's the tiniest investment that makes for a massive improvement in killing power.

FF help if you don't go first. Additionally, they are helpful vs. the crackshot crap I have to face. Lastly, if it saves my ravagers...and makes my opponent have to shoot more shots in them to put them down...all the better. The 'jink' save isn't all that great. FFs now bounce failed terrain tests, etc. It's still a useful piece of wargear, dropping them adds 30pts back into my army...which doesn't buy me anything more of use.

Unless you use board terrain and the new 25% rules to give you cover. Crack shot? The only way I see the FF being useful is the failed terrain tests. That's about all they have going for them on Ravagers. Otherwise they are exactly the same as a jink save. That you have to pay for. I'll take free over not free every day of the week.

As for what you could buy with the thirty points.

That shattershard you're hesitant to drop, perhaps. Get a liquifier gun and the shattershard?

Hiveguard - they don't ignore invulnerables

Ignores cover weapons (whirlwinds might see a rennaisance, Hydras)

It depends on your local meta, i guess.

My local is rather packed with cover-ignoring stuff, and DE vehicles are awful fragile, with even anti-infantry weapons having a decent chance of at least glancing ..

CaptKaruthors wrote:

He's strength 6 on a charge. Rarely does this unit see combat for longer than a round. Thus, most of the time they are getting the charge...or outright killing what they charge. This unit so far has performed admirably even vs. terminators. Nothing locks this unit down until the baron dies...which is unlikely to happen.

why pay 10 points for +1 attack when you wont pay 5 points for +1 attack and better chance to wound?

If you give wyches a power axe, aren't they still pretty good against terminators?
I know there is that snap fire thing, but I think it goes both ways.

Also...what about the old school raider rush with warriors?

scuddman wrote:If you give wyches a power axe, aren't they still pretty good against terminators?
I know there is that snap fire thing, but I think it goes both ways.

only the hextrix can take an ax and if you do, she will get challenged by a bloke with a sword who will likely kill her before she gets to swing.

Ascalam wrote:Hiveguard - they don't ignore invulnerables

Ignores cover weapons (whirlwinds might see a rennaisance, Hydras)

It depends on your local meta, i guess.

My local is rather packed with cover-ignoring stuff, and DE vehicles are awful fragile, with even anti-infantry weapons having a decent chance of at least glancing ..

Hive guard I will give you.

Hydras I already talked about, and explained why you won't see more than a couple of them in any given list these days. While they have their niche (namely destroying DE and flyers) they aren't nearly as universally useful as they were in the previous edition. One or two hydra tanks does not scare three ravagers, especially when accompanied by a fleet of other juicy targets to force hard target priority decisions.

Whirlwinds? Their ignore cover* missiles can't scratch the paint on a Ravager. It's strength 4 hitting armor 11. Even if they use the Vengeance missiles, it's still only strength 5, meaning it only glances on a 6. Ordnance doubles the chance of that glancing hit, but in the end... That's all it is. A single glancing hit. If that's what they're using their whirlwind for, a single glancing hit a turn, that you can save with Jink, you've already won that game.

So you have Hive Guard, which only have a 30" threat radius and might become less common in this edition due to the shift away from dedicated transport spam and their lack of twin-linked limiting their usefulness against flyers (I'm not a nid player, nor a psychic but I see Hive Guard as being less useful these days.) and you have Hydras, which are definitely going to become less common due to the fact that they only hit on 6's against every target that isn't a flyer or a skimmer. That's only two units in the entirety of the game right now.

Mind you, I'm not making an argument against Flickerfields in general. I use flickerfields quite extensively to protect my flyers so they don't have to waste turns evading, and to protect my dedicated transports so they get to where they need to be. But for a Ravager that's going to sit in my deployment zone, shifting to adjust for LoS and to avoid backfield threats like outflankers and drop pods (neither of which can assault the turn they come in these days) I do not see the point in investing 30 points in upgrades that will hardly ever see use. I can get a flamethrower that snipes characters and a pistol that can potentially snipe characters for those points.

scuddman wrote:If you give wyches a power axe, aren't they still pretty good against terminators?
I know there is that snap fire thing, but I think it goes both ways.

Also...what about the old school raider rush with warriors?

Ohdeargodno. It wastes the best part about Wyches, they swing first. I still go for the agoniser if I'm running my wyches in larger groups. Wounding on a 4+ with a strength 3 model is wonderful. You just need to avoid terminators in assault these days and focus them down with long range fire. Or, if you're going to assault them, do it with the intention of a drawn out tarpit, using shardnets to reduce their attacks to 1 per model and grisly trophies on a nearby vehicle to allow you to reroll any failed leadership checks.

Raider Rush is pretty decent these days. 10 warriors, a splinter cannon and a raider with splinter racks and a flickerfield will run you 180 points, which is a steal for a dark lance, 9 twin-linked splinter rifles and a splinter cannon. As always, the usual DE tactics apply. Focus multiple units into a single enemy unit until it is no longer a threat, then move on to the next threat. Feel free to get within 12" of a unit for rapid fire if it's not an assault unit or a specializes in short ranged shooting. Twin-linked double-tapping splinter rifles can put some serious pain on enemy units. Just be sure to roll your Splinter Cannon shots with different dice or separately. Splinter racks, unfortunately, do not benefit them.

*Couple of edits.

why pay 10 points for +1 attack when you wont pay 5 points for +1 attack and better chance to wound?

Because he's a squad upgrade and becomes a character at that point...he's great for absorbing challenges. Like I said, I'm not adverse to adding a venom blade...in the games I've played so far I haven't seen a need for it.

Hydras I already talked about, and explained why you won't see more than a couple of them in any given list these days. While they have their niche (namely destroying DE and flyers) they aren't nearly as universally useful as they were in the previous edition. One or two hydra tanks does not scare three ravagers, especially when accompanied by a fleet of other juicy targets to force hard target priority decisions.

There is far more things in the game that the FF is good against. For IG, "Fire on my target", Hive Guard, Tau with Markerlights. Like I said, it's 30pts. Okay, so I drop the Shattershard and use the points to get a venom blade. That still leaves me with 10pts. Drop the FF's and now I have 40pts...which = not enough points to get anything of significant value. Which means the FF's aren't a waste at that point.

If you give wyches a power axe, aren't they still pretty good against terminators?
I know there is that snap fire thing, but I think it goes both ways.

I'd only consider that if I was running larger squads. In my experience and test games so far...wyches are worthless unless you take a full squad...or take the minimum. Anything in between is a waste. They simply die too quickly now and delivering them into CC is nearly impossible. Mine are there for cheap scoring, or to go after vehicles as they are absolutely brutal vehicle killers now.

Raider Rush is pretty decent these days. 10 warriors, a splinter cannon and a raider with splinter racks and a flickerfield will run you 180 points, which is a steal for a dark lance, 9 twin-linked splinter rifles and a splinter cannon. As always, the usual DE tactics apply. Focus multiple units into a single enemy unit until it is no longer a threat, then move on to the next threat. Feel free to get within 12" of a unit for rapid fire if it's not an assault unit or a specializes in short ranged shooting. Twin-linked double-tapping splinter rifles can put some serious pain on enemy units. Just be sure to roll your Splinter Cannon shots with different dice or separately. Splinter racks, unfortunately, do not benefit them.

This greatly depends on match up. Decent? Meh, not in my experience. I've played games where I've lost all my raiders in one turn. With the new rapid fire rules, they take far more firepower now. Pair that with Aegis lines, it makes GEQ armies more durable vs. your poison shots. I see Aegis lines being standard equipment in most people's armies as it's one of the few ways of getting Skyfire and Interceptor into your list. Having it be manned by characters with a high BS makes it a nasty threat even worse when it's manned by an Exarch with crackshot...LOL.

CaptKaruthors wrote:There is far more things in the game that the FF is good against. For IG, "Fire on my target", Hive Guard, Tau with Markerlights. Like I said, it's 30pts. Okay, so I drop the Shattershard and use the points to get a venom blade. That still leaves me with 10pts. Drop the FF's and now I have 40pts...which = not enough points to get anything of significant value. Which means the FF's aren't a waste at that point.

Fire on my target? You mean that order that only company command squads and special characters can issue, and can only issue a maximum of twice a turn and only if they forgo any and all other opportunities for orders? I can't say that I've ever seen that order put to good effect on the units that actually threaten Ravagers. If a Heavy Weapons Team is firing on my Ravager, it's already in deep trouble regardless of which 5+ save it has, and there's no way I'm letting it get within 24" for the guard to bring their weight of fire with plasma weapons and such come to bear.

I also have to say, it's rarely my ravagers that get marker-lighted. It's usually the venoms. They're a bigger threat in the grand scheme of things, and rail guns can pop a Ravager with ease either way

I'd rather have 30 points to spare on wargear that will see use in every game than 30 points to spend that will only get used a fraction of the time. I'd grab a shattershard. It's always a good idea, it can snipe characters out of a unit so you don't have to worry about challenges. Then throw a blast pistol in to give a squad some extra AT and precision shots potential, or throw some venom blades on squad leaders because they kick ass too.

This greatly depends on match up. Decent? Meh, not in my experience. I've played games where I've lost all my raiders in one turn. With the new rapid fire rules, they take far more firepower now. Pair that with Aegis lines, it makes GEQ armies more durable vs. your poison shots. I see Aegis lines being standard equipment in most people's armies as it's one of the few ways of getting Skyfire and Interceptor into your list. Having it be manned by characters with a high BS makes it a nasty threat even worse when it's manned by an Exarch with crackshot...LOL.

You are aware that by default, an Aegis defense line is only a 4+ save, right? The same save that infantry had in 5th for standing behind a tall bush? If we're talking GEQ, chances are they're either lots of small units or a moderate amount of big units, but either way, they aren't going to be able to stretch the Aegis across the board to get that cover save everywhere. All you have to do is maneuver to an angle where the defense line isn't between your firing unit and their unit. Focus fire if you have to, pick out the ones who aren't in cover. I'd gladly let my opponent pay 50 points for an easily negated cover save. The only time it worries me is when it is used to safeguard tanks, now that's effective. Infantry? Not so much, though the quad gun is more than a little frightening. Mostly because you can't kill it. Gotta kill the squad manning it. That can be a real pain in the ass.

Fire on my target? You mean that order that only company command squads and special characters can issue, and can only issue a maximum of twice a turn and only if they forgo any and all other opportunities for orders?

Yeah, that one...you know the one that can be issued 4 times by Creed, or 4 times if people are taking dual command squads...something that a lot of IG players will do in a competitive list?

I can't say that I've ever seen that order put to good effect on the units that actually threaten Ravagers. If a Heavy Weapons Team is firing on my Ravager, it's already in deep trouble regardless of which 5+ save it has, and there's no way I'm letting it get within 24" for the guard to bring their weight of fire with plasma weapons and such come to bear.

Then your opponents may be doing it wrong. It's very easy to get into range with plasma now. Drive 12" and snap fire away...and I'm not really even talking about just plasma. Heavy weapon teams are a threat always, and sometimes you don't have the benefit of cover...or you went second. There are lots of factors that come into play. 30pts. to assist in that eventuality is worth it to me.

I also have to say, it's rarely my ravagers that get marker-lighted. It's usually the venoms. They're a bigger threat in the grand scheme of things, and rail guns can pop a Ravager with ease either way

Then the Tau player isn't very wise as venoms are AV10 and most of the Tau fire power can down them without markerlight assistance.

I'd rather have 30 points to spare on wargear that will see use in every game than 30 points to spend that will only get used a fraction of the time. I'd grab a shattershard. It's always a good idea, it can snipe characters out of a unit so you don't have to worry about challenges.

The shattershard is nice, but by no means an auto take for me. I've been able to only use it once. It's more for a "break glass in case of emergency" type choice. Wargearing up Haemonculi too much is foolish in this edition when they are less durable than before (if they ever were at all).

Then throw a blast pistol in to give a squad some extra AT and precision shots potential, or throw some venom blades on squad leaders because they kick ass too.

For 15pts for a pistol, I'd rather take a blaster for the same cost...and get better range. However, name me a character in the HQ choices that I've selected that can take one? There is no basic Archon in my list. Upgrading the wyches with squad leaders is pointless as there are only 5 of them per squad and they are completely disposable...or completely for hiding on objectives. Adding to their cost is foolish...and with only 30 pts to spare if I dropped the FFs...it only gets me one Hekatrix with a blast pistol...or two with venom blades...not really worth it as their role isn't to assault infantry.

You are aware that by default, an Aegis defense line is only a 4+ save, right? The same save that infantry had in 5th for standing behind a tall bush? If we're talking GEQ, chances are they're either lots of small units or a moderate amount of big units, but either way, they aren't going to be able to stretch the Aegis across the board to get that cover save everywhere.

Obviously, you haven't played much vs. opponents that have used them. While they are GEQs, you're only averaging 4 wounds a turn per Venom...of which they save half. That means with 4 venoms you are, on average, only dealing a total of 8 unsaved wounds into a 10 man unit after Aegis saves. That's not enough to destroy the unit. This doesn't take into account things like Camo Cloaks, or Eldar units with Stealth, etc. but just the basic 4+ the Aegis gives. It's a big deal when your venoms become less effective. My experience tells me this through many games vs. Aegis lines. Just sayin...

All you have to do is maneuver to an angle where the defense line isn't between your firing unit and their unit.

Easier said than done. Ever face Vibro cannons walled up behind Aegis? Dark Reapers? Warwalkers?, IG camo'd platoons because the Commissar Lord gives them stealth? Bunkered up artillery is brutal now.

Focus fire if you have to, pick out the ones who aren't in cover. I'd gladly let my opponent pay 50 points for an easily negated cover save.

And how is Dark Eldar easily negating this cover save?

The only time it worries me is when it is used to safeguard tanks, now that's effective. Infantry? Not so much, though the quad gun is more than a little frightening. Mostly because you can't kill it. Gotta kill the squad manning it. That can be a real pain in the ass.

It's effective regardless of what's behind it. It's cheap effective terrain you'll always have. Also the quad gun can be killed. It's T7 with 2 wounds and a 3+ save. The main reason I went the route I did with my list is because of the effectiveness of Aegis lines. The only real durable units the DE have now is a death star block of Grotes with Talos escort backed up by cheap guns (Venoms) with weak troops. I still have a lot more testing to do, so my opinions may change, but so far this is what I've encountered and am reporting in with based on rigorous test games.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Yeah, that one...you know the one that can be issued 4 times by Creed, or 4 times if people are taking dual command squads...something that a lot of IG players will do in a competitive list?

So we're talking my opponent dropping 150-200 points on 5, possibly 10 toughness 3 models with a base 5+ save? Happy birthday to me. I'd love for my opponent to spend a tenth of his points on such easily obtained victory points.

Then your opponents may be doing it wrong. It's very easy to get into range with plasma now. Drive 12" and snap fire away...and I'm not really even talking about just plasma. Heavy weapon teams are a threat always, and sometimes you don't have the benefit of cover...or you went second. There are lots of factors that come into play. 30pts. to assist in that eventuality is worth it to me.

12"+12" = 24"

That's a little short of the 36" range my Ravager will be using to full effect.

Unless you're talking about moving 12" and firing once. In which case a plasmavets squad gets exactly three shots that only hit on sixes. Oh dear, you mean I have a 50% chance to get hit once? And if that one hit has a 50% chance to strip a hull point, and a 33% chance to roll on the damage table? And if it does, I still have a 16% chance to negate it? Oh man, what an apocalyptic situation.

Then the Tau player isn't very wise as venoms are AV10 and most of the Tau fire power can down them without markerlight assistance.

Oh man, I would love for our local tau players to hop out of their transports to try and shoot my venoms with small arms fire. Yes please. Oh, please teach them to do that. I would sincerely appreciate it.

The shattershard is nice, but by no means an auto take for me. I've been able to only use it once. It's more for a "break glass in case of emergency" type choice. Wargearing up Haemonculi too much is foolish in this edition when they are less durable than before (if they ever were at all).

It's not an auto-take for me either, but it's one of the first pieces of wargear I look at investing into when I have points left over. I have never taken it in a game and not used it. It is, as I've said before, insanely valuable for sniping characters out of units. As it specifies the models under the template have to take the test, not the unit as a whole, you can easily remove that dude with the power fist and nasty attitude before diving in. As for overgearing a haemonculus, I'd hardly call 80 points expensive.

For 15pts for a pistol, I'd rather take a blaster for the same cost...and get better range. However, name me a character in the HQ choices that I've selected that can take one? There is no basic Archon in my list. Upgrading the wyches with squad leaders is pointless as there are only 5 of them per squad and they are completely disposable...or completely for hiding on objectives. Adding to their cost is foolish...and with only 30 pts to spare if I dropped the FFs...it only gets me one Hekatrix with a blast pistol...or two with venom blades...not really worth it as their role isn't to assault infantry.

I wasn't speaking specifically about your list. You said you could not get anything good for 30 points. I was demonstrating that you could. If I was speaking specifically about your list, I'd suggest throwing Grisly Trophies to make sure your MSU wyches don't run off after suffering a single wound. Or throw some night shields on your Ravagers, since you're so frightened by snap-shotting Plasma guns.

Obviously, you haven't played much vs. opponents that have used them. While they are GEQs, you're only averaging 4 wounds a turn per Venom...of which they save half. That means with 4 venoms you are, on average, only dealing a total of 8 unsaved wounds into a 10 man unit after Aegis saves. That's not enough to destroy the unit. This doesn't take into account things like Camo Cloaks, or Eldar units with Stealth, etc. but just the basic 4+ the Aegis gives. It's a big deal when your venoms become less effective. My experience tells me this through many games vs. Aegis lines. Just sayin...

Why, actually, yes I have! That's how I know it's so incredibly easy to deny their saves. See, most of the people deploy them facing directly towards the enemy, without side sections to shore up their flanks. Maximizes the length, but leaves them open to cross fire. Remember, if you draw line of sight from the barrel of your weapons to a model without the aegis defense line interfering, they do not get their cover save. It is not area terrain where they benefit just from standing next to it. It has to be between them and whatever is shooting at them. Again, combined with Focus Fire, this makes Aegis defense lines far less potent than you make them out to be. Move up one flank and fire into the central line or the opposite flank, drawing line of sight from the side and using Focus Fire to make sure those wounds don't get any saves. If you manage to collapse their flank with your close combat specialists charging ahead of the venoms, you can get enfilade fire and make that 50 point wall absolutely useless.

I'm really astonished at how highly you value a 4+ cover save though, especially considering those were standard for 5th. Mind you, they are rarer now, but how on earth did you deal with your opponent receiving one for standing in a crater in 5th edition? Especially since that crater was free, no points cost attached. Now they have to pay just to get the same cover save.

Easier said than done. Ever face Vibro cannons walled up behind Aegis? Dark Reapers? Warwalkers?, IG camo'd platoons because the Commissar Lord gives them stealth? Bunkered up artillery is brutal now.

And how is Dark Eldar easily negating this cover save?

See above, and I've already said that vehicles prove to be far more difficult to shift from behind Aegis defense lines. They benefit much better from it than Infantry except in the case of short range weapons such as melta or haywire grenades.

It's effective regardless of what's behind it. It's cheap effective terrain you'll always have. Also the quad gun can be killed. It's T7 with 2 wounds and a 3+ save. The main reason I went the route I did with my list is because of the effectiveness of Aegis lines. The only real durable units the DE have now is a death star block of Grotes with Talos escort backed up by cheap guns (Venoms) with weak troops. I still have a lot more testing to do, so my opinions may change, but so far this is what I've encountered and am reporting in with based on rigorous test games.

Effective? Yes. It's as effective as terrain was in 5th. But again, you're paying points for a limited amount of terrain that can be nullified, quite easily in the case of infantry. Remember that the rulebook outright specifies how many sections of defensive line you're allowed to use. I have seen all sorts of placements being attempted to take full advantage of it, but those limitations really do make a difference. The best formation I've seen would be an arrow with the point towards my army, but goddamn if this doesn't compress all their troops into one tightly packed bubble. There is always going to be a hole in the line or a weak point to exploit and even if something such as impassable terrain or LoS issues prevents you from exploiting it, it's still only a 4+ save. They weren't that big of a deal in 5th, and they aren't now. 50% of wounds are saved? That's nice, now sit nice and clustered while I send two shatterfields into your ranks. Make twenty five saving throws. Ready for the second pair of missiles? I'd hope so.

So we're talking my opponent dropping 150-200 points on 5, possibly 10 toughness 3 models with a base 5+ save? Happy birthday to me. I'd love for my opponent to spend a tenth of his points on such easily obtained victory points.

Yeah, because it's so easy to extract them from their transports :rolls eyes: Your blaster delivery systems got weaker, etc. easier said than done. My IG crushes DE. I don't think I've lost a game to DE in 5th. I haven't played my IG in 6th yet as I've been more focused on retooling my DE for 6th.

Unless you're talking about moving 12" and firing once. In which case a plasmavets squad gets exactly three shots that only hit on sixes. Oh dear, you mean I have a 50% chance to get hit once? And if that one hit has a 50% chance to strip a hull point, and a 33% chance to roll on the damage table? And if it does, I still have a 16% chance to negate it? Oh man, what an apocalyptic situation.

You assume too much. A.) you are assuming your ravagers always have the best cover and are moving. B.) Creed can outflank units into your zone. Again, your explanations seem...shall we say more theory and less about real game play. Or, you have the fortune of playing less experienced players. IG and Eldar are the worst match ups for DE in 6th...even more than they were in 5th.

Oh man, I would love for our local tau players to hop out of their transports to try and shoot my venoms with small arms fire. Yes please. Oh, please teach them to do that. I would sincerely appreciate it.

Maybe they should. Venoms get rolled by massed Str5 firepower and the Tau bring it in spades (hell and I'm not even counting the massed Missile Pod firepower they bring). Venoms have only 2 hull points....you must have great FF saves on your Venoms then. Most of my Venoms die by turn 3. Like I said, you must be extremely lucky...or your player base is lacking.

It's not an auto-take for me either, but it's one of the first pieces of wargear I look at investing into when I have points left over. I have never taken it in a game and not used it. It is, as I've said before, insanely valuable for sniping characters out of units. As it specifies the models under the template have to take the test, not the unit as a whole, you can easily remove that dude with the power fist and nasty attitude before diving in. As for overgearing a haemonculus, I'd hardly call 80 points expensive.

There is no disputing the potential effectiveness of the Shard. In the case of my army, it's a nice addition. 80pts for a Haemonculus is getting borderline expensive...especially on a character that has subpar stats for an HQ choice and is essentially a token generator and flame template chucker in this edition. The Haemonculus' durability took a slight dip in this edition.

I wasn't speaking specifically about your list. You said you could not get anything good for 30 points. I was demonstrating that you could. If I was speaking specifically about your list, I'd suggest throwing Grisly Trophies to make sure your MSU wyches don't run off after suffering a single wound. Or throw some night shields on your Ravagers, since you're so frightened by snap-shotting Plasma guns.

That's what the discussion was about in regards to the FFs in my army. Recheck the posts. Also, Grisly Trophies, while nice, aren't very useful when your wyches are usually out of range after they charge.

Why, actually, yes I have! That's how I know it's so incredibly easy to deny their saves. See, most of the people deploy them facing directly towards the enemy, without side sections to shore up their flanks.

Here is your first mistake. You said most people. I'm talking about people that understand to wrap their flanks with the small pieces to get the cover from all three sides. It reduces the size slightly, but it worth it.

Maximizes the length, but leaves them open to cross fire. Remember, if you draw line of sight from the barrel of your weapons to a model without the aegis defense line interfering, they do not get their cover save. It is not area terrain where they benefit just from standing next to it. It has to be between them and whatever is shooting at them.

Your experience differs from mine. My opponents recognize that and deploy accordingly to solve that problem.

Again, combined with Focus Fire, this makes Aegis defense lines far less potent than you make them out to be. Move up one flank and fire into the central line or the opposite flank, drawing line of sight from the side and using Focus Fire to make sure those wounds don't get any saves.

Focus fire maybe one or two guys. Good job. Way to waste 12 shots from your Venom that will get one turn, maybe two to shoot.

If you manage to collapse their flank with your close combat specialists charging ahead of the venoms, you can get enfilade fire and make that 50 point wall absolutely useless.

Here you go again about combat specialist getting there. In every game I've played so far, I've safely delivered combat units to my opponents lines 4 times. In all the other games they get shot out from their transport, most die from that, then the rest get shot off the board. Getting hammered by powers like Foreboding, Perfect timing, and Prescience really sort of limits your ability to get into HtH at times.

I'm really astonished at how highly you value a 4+ cover save though, especially considering those were standard for 5th. Mind you, they are rarer now, but how on earth did you deal with your opponent receiving one for standing in a crater in 5th edition?

I'm really astonished how you've overlooked what a boon it is to be able to purchase 4+ cover and take it with you in this game...then pair it with units that can improve that cover. With the nerfing of assault distances, and the loss of not being able to assault from any kind of reserve move that level of cover is more durable than ever. Other than flame template weapons, the DE have no cover ignoring weapons. At. All. It is very easy for units of IG to get the save to a 2+, then get back in the fight to shoot again on their turn.

Effective? Yes. It's as effective as terrain was in 5th. But again, you're paying points for a limited amount of terrain that can be nullified, quite easily in the case of infantry. Remember that the rulebook outright specifies how many sections of defensive line you're allowed to use. I have seen all sorts of placements being attempted to take full advantage of it, but those limitations really do make a difference. The best formation I've seen would be an arrow with the point towards my army, but goddamn if this doesn't compress all their troops into one tightly packed bubble. There is always going to be a hole in the line or a weak point to exploit and even if something such as impassable terrain or LoS issues prevents you from exploiting it, it's still only a 4+ save. They weren't that big of a deal in 5th, and they aren't now. 50% of wounds are saved? That's nice, now sit nice and clustered while I send two shatterfields into your ranks. Make twenty five saving throws. Ready for the second pair of missiles? I'd hope so.

See above. It isn't always 4+. Think about the kinds of units that can get placed behind it, then come talk to me. Apparently your opponents aren't taking advantage of that opportunity. That's good for you, but bad for them. Good luck trying to connect with your missiles when the Aegis line is occupied by a Quad Gun with a character manning it...and either A.) shoots your AV10 Razorwing down at the end of your movement phase, or B.) Shoots you, and forces you to evade and you are now unable to fire your missiles. Did you bring a FF? Did you bring more than one Flyer? I hope so. Like I said, I don't quite think you are a playing vs. some tough lists...or you are extremely fortunate that you are a 40k god amongst your peers in your gaming circle, or the meta in your area is a little more forgiving to your DE.