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ThePhish wrote:

Exergy wrote:

skink007 wrote:
No 2d6 to pen, but all MCs get smash attacks. With the Talos this means you can get up to 4 str 10 attacks on rear armor.... even a landraider is shuddering at that.

they use to get 7+2d6 which has a better probibility to pen AV14 than 10+d6. Also they could get up to 8 attacks.
The changes might be a buff for cronos but are a nerf for Talos.

Definitely a nerf to the talos, but when it only takes 3/4 glances to wreck a vehicle, you don't 'need' penetrating hits. The number of attacks is what really sucks. Although it's easier to hit vehicles in cc now, it's not enough to make up for the loss of half of your attacks.

Wyches wreck vehicles(and dreads) so easily now it isnt a huge concern. Talos were really only needed for dreads, but now that 5 wyches can kill a dread before it can strike you really dont need them.

I love the Talos and Cronos models, but i'm really struggling to find a way to work them into my lists these days.

I will still take them for fluffy Coven build lists, but they seem woefully underimpressive under the new rules for any serious list.

I might experiment with WWP delivered Cronos, as they have multiple shooting attacks they can drop on someone coming out of a WWP. It might be worth a shot if you could demech the enemies around the WWP area, especially since you can't camp on an objective inside a tank these days to claim it.

TL Liquifier plus splinter cannon Talos might be worth a look, now they are less useful as tank hunters, also..

Ascalam wrote:I love the Talos and Cronos models, but i'm really struggling to find a way to work them into my lists these days.

I will still take them for fluffy Coven build lists, but they seem woefully underimpressive under the new rules for any serious list.

I might experiment with WWP delivered Cronos, as they have multiple shooting attacks they can drop on someone coming out of a WWP. It might be worth a shot if you could demech the enemies around the WWP area, especially since you can't camp on an objective inside a tank these days to claim it.

TL Liquifier plus splinter cannon Talos might be worth a look, now they are less useful as tank hunters, also..

I use to run the talos with a splinter cannon to try and get it a pain token. That 4+ against Krak missiles was gold. Now that it is only a 5+ I dont know. At least it works against lascannons now.

Another battle report (against space wolves) if people are interested:

Battle report 4

Wyches seem just as squishy as ever. Not being able to keep an agoniser hekatrix safe with ablative wounds is a real pain.

Exergy wrote:

I use to run the talos with a splinter cannon to try and get it a pain token. That 4+ against Krak missiles was gold. Now that it is only a 5+ I dont know. At least it works against lascannons now.

Sadly it's way easier and cheaper to spam missile launchers than lascannons...

I'm new to this forum but have been using this thread to adjust my play style for 6th edition. I have been a DE player since the newest codex was released, and yes at first I was pissed at the changes that GW did to them with 6th ed, and the faq's. But after realizing that my army wasn't nerfed, but instead changed I have been Rick rolling everybody so far.

Beast Masters and the baron are the new assault unit for dark eldar. My squad consist of the baron, 5 beast masters, 8 khymera's, and 6 razor wing flocks. I have enough diversity that besides a few blast templates I can spread the damage around enough that I can take a trashing pretty well from a lot of different units.

Wyches are the best anti armor in the codex, so I have 2 small 5 man squads in venoms, but I also run lelith and keep her and a squad of 9 wyches (hekatrix, and hydra guantlets) back as a counter attack unit.

Something that I have always used that not a lot of other DE players I've seen use are disentigrator cannons; a ravage with three of those can ruin a lot of people's days. Dark Lances are nice, but I've never really thought that I had to take 500 of them to have a list that I can win with.

Granted everyone plays differently, and the people we play against aren't all going to play the same either. Personally I don't play a lot of tournaments (that doesn't mean that I have never played tournaments, nor that I'm not good in them, just paper rock scissor list are boring to play against) because I bring a good all comers list that does well against pretty much whatever you throw at it, but in tournaments in 5th ed it came down to Spam Spam Spam. The only thing I have duplicated in my army are the two 5 man wych squads. The DE codex has so many great units, that to spam one or two units seems like a dis-justice. That is just me though. If it works for you keep doing it, but the DE are fine this edition.

Just my two cents.


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Besides, if a Husk blade become ap2, I can think of an Archon and some Incubi in a raider, as another great assault unit.

DE are fine this edition to be honest.

That being said grey knights are scary this edition with access to cheap inquisitors with divination. Prescience is brutal with psycannons and psybolts, they were already hard for DE to beat, and now they got even shootier. Not to mention, overwatch, divination and Hull points all make S5 bolters very good.

Here is my battle report if anyone is interested:

Battle Report 5

Bolters really hurt your vehicles if they're in large number or lucky. The new vehicle Wrecked rules really benefit weak troops however. But not Assaulting counters this.

Beast packs are definitely our go-to close combat squad these days. They can reclaim some of the glory that Wyches had in 5th.

I've been cheesing it up by throwing Baron at the front of the unit and using the 2+ LoS! the put shots wherever I want them to be. Bolter wounds go on the multiwound flock models, lascannons ping off the Khymera's invulnerable save or a clawed fiend. Clawed fiends have seen a place in my list explicitly because of this strategy. I'll throw the first few strength 6+ wounds on a clawed fiend, ramping up his attacks as high as possible while keeping him snugly in the center of the unit. When they charge, he ends up in the second rank and protected from wounds while doing a boatload of damage.

My preferred beastpack is four beastmasters, five Khymerae, four flocks and a clawed fiend. A good medley.

I'm going to start experiment with Wracks soon. See if I can breathe a bit of life into the old mech hybrid build.

Mushkilla wrote:DE are fine this edition to be honest.

That being said grey knights are scary this edition with access to cheap inquisitors with divination. Prescience is brutal with psycannons and psybolts, they were already hard for DE to beat, and now they got even shootier. Not to mention, overwatch, divination and Hull points all make S5 bolters very good.

Here is my battle report if anyone is interested:

Battle Report 5

I like reading your battle reports.

Question, I know you are trying out different units to see how they work with your reaver squads (which by the way are kicking butt very nicely). But have you ever thought about 2 squads of 5 wyches with haywire grenades in venoms, and a succubus with hekatrix bloodbrides in another venom, instead of the raiders. Save yourself some points from not paying more for the raiders, and smaller squads, and have every wych with a haywire grenade you would make those dreadnaughts crap themselves, and venoms come with flickfields for free. If you have the points you can upgrade to a hekatrix in each wych squad.


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Lokas wrote:I've been cheesing it up by throwing Baron at the front of the unit and using the 2+ LoS! the put shots wherever I want them to be.

I totally forgot about that. That is something I'll have to do, and maybe run a clawed fiend again to do like you said and max out his attacks. Good advice.

The other thing I'd suggest is keeping your beastmasters safe. They may never do anything in combat short of dying pitifully to a rogue fart, but they're characters.

Don't want that mean motherhumper with a power fist to start punking some Razorwing flocks? Challenge him with Bill the expendable hellion. That powerfist will kill the crap out of bill, but you won't be morosely sweeping your razorwings off the table. Does that cheeky cheap sergeant with a chain sword want to challenge Baron out of combat, depriving you of his high strength attacks? Accept the challenge with Tommy 'I pissed off the boss' Jones. The two can flail uselessly at each other while the Baron is free to do his dirty deeds.

Remember to hit and run on Baron's initiative 6!

It's the only deathstar I'd consider fielding.

Mostly because it's only 261 points, durable, powerful, and my favorite, quick.

Question?

I know this has probably been brought up on this thread before (but I don't want to look through 11 pages of rants to find it), but when a vehicle is wrecked, how does that stop you from assaulting the next turn? I can't find it in the Rule book. Could someone tell me the page in the rule book that it is on too?

Thanks

CrimsonKing wrote:
I like reading your battle reports.

Question, I know you are trying out different units to see how they work with your reaver squads (which by the way are kicking butt very nicely). But have you ever thought about 2 squads of 5 wyches with haywire grenades in venoms, and a succubus with hekatrix bloodbrides in another venom, instead of the raiders. Save yourself some points from not paying more for the raiders, and smaller squads, and have every wych with a haywire grenade you would make those dreadnaughts crap themselves, and venoms come with flickfields for free. If you have the points you can upgrade to a hekatrix in each wych squad.

Thanks,

You read my mind, I actually have that exact list written down in "lists to try pile", and it is what I will be trying next . I wanted to try raiders as It means I can run more troops (no need for brides, if only the venom could carry six), it also means I can add some extra bodies if need be (raiders also work out a bit cheaper without the night shields) with the three venom list I have 20 or so points floating around that I can't do much with.

That being said I'm very impressed with haywire, and I think MSU really helps wyches as it minimises the casualties you take from explosions. Venoms are also a lot smaller so they are miles easier to hide (which I really like). Venoms are also great at softening up targets. I'm also considering running raiders with dis-integrators and wyches with haywire. Lots to try!

CrimsonKing wrote:Question?

I know this has probably been brought up on this thread before (but I don't want to look through 11 pages of rants to find it), but when a vehicle is wrecked, how does that stop you from assaulting the next turn? I can't find it in the Rule book. Could someone tell me the page in the rule book that it is on too?

Thanks

The basic argument is (and I wholly disagree with this conclusion) that assault vehicle (RAW) gives you permission to assault the turn that you disembark. Since it is the enemy's turn when you are forced to disembark via a wreck, you cannot make a charge and therefore the permission is wasted. When the next turn comes around, the permission to assault via Assault Vehicle has expired, and you're no longer permitted to assault.

At least that's my understanding of it after reading the lengthy YMDC thread on the topic.

Lokas wrote:

CrimsonKing wrote:Question?

I know this has probably been brought up on this thread before (but I don't want to look through 11 pages of rants to find it), but when a vehicle is wrecked, how does that stop you from assaulting the next turn? I can't find it in the Rule book. Could someone tell me the page in the rule book that it is on too?

Thanks

The basic argument is (and I wholly disagree with this conclusion) that assault vehicle (RAW) gives you permission to assault the turn that you disembark. Since it is the enemy's turn when you are forced to disembark via a wreck, you cannot make a charge and therefore the permission is wasted. When the next turn comes around, the permission to assault via Assault Vehicle has expired, and you're no longer permitted to assault.

At least that's my understanding of it after reading the lengthy YMDC thread on the topic.

I think RAW it has a leg to stand on. My personal take is that it wasn't what was intended and so I wouldn't insist that it be played that way when I pop someone's assault transport (unless it was Terminators in a Land Raider in which case they've already got all the help they needed from power weapon changes).

The reason I think that is because the Assault Vehicle rule has that little bit about being able to assault the turn that they disembark even if the vehicle was destroyed, something which could only happen on your own turn when a flat out skimmer fails a dangerous terrain test (in which case the troops wouldn't have been able to get out normally anyway) or a zooming flyer transport is prevented from moving.

I agree that, RAW, that's how it is.

However, I'm of the belief that it was unintended, either an oversight or just straight up not a consequence they thought about.

There are enough spelling mistakes in the big book to cement my belief in GW's fallibility.

Either way, I can't imagine anyone but TFG playing it that way. I certainly haven't seen anyone trying to enforce that at my FLGS. Even after I mentioned it during idle chatter and told just about all the regulars about it. They were of the mind that it was a mistake too, and nobody has tried to play it that way.

I could see people acting differently at tournaments though.

Lokas wrote:I agree that, RAW, that's how it is.

However, I'm of the belief that it was unintended, either an oversight or just straight up not a consequence they thought about.

There are enough spelling mistakes in the big book to cement my belief in GW's fallibility.

Either way, I can't imagine anyone but TFG playing it that way. I certainly haven't seen anyone trying to enforce that at my FLGS. Even after I mentioned it during idle chatter and told just about all the regulars about it. They were of the mind that it was a mistake too, and nobody has tried to play it that way.

I could see people acting differently at tournaments though.

Okay, I agree with you. I have looked in the book were it talks about vehicle blowing up and and wrecked and what disembarking means and emergency disembarking also, and I have asked around locally about it too, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. I guess if you were really trying to screw your opponent over you could maybe make an argument to a Nazi about it and they would agree, but I don't play d-bag tactics like that anyways. I just saw a number of people talking about that and it really just confused me and everyone else locally, but since it was brought up I thought I would ask.

I got a question...

I don't want to spam Ravagers, I want to take 2 flyers and 1 Ravager, what flyers are the best out of the two we get?

Puscifer wrote:I got a question...

I don't want to spam Ravagers, I want to take 2 flyers and 1 Ravager, what flyers are the best out of the two we get?

Both are good for different reasons.

The Razorwing with lances + monoscythes + flickers is a good all rounder, capable at killing tanks, infantry and reasonably decent at dogfighting.
With Dissies instead of lances (and maybe a splinter cannon) it's great anti-infantry and light vehicle harrassment.

The Voidraven is straight up anti-armour, with its 2 Str9 shots, it's role is taking out heavy vehicles and enemy flyers.

The bonus of our flyers is that we don't need to evade to get our 5+ save, so we're able to consistantly fire at full BS while taking hits. ( I recently took and ignored the hits from 2 squads of lootas, a battlewagon, a boss in mega armour?, a squad of boyz and a dakkajet I'm sure something else... and walked away only having lost 1 Hull Point. )

The best way would probably be 2 Lance Razorwings with flickers and maybe night shields, and then a Dark Lance Ravager, while givign all your raiders Dissies.
That way your light transports can kill their light transports, your tank can kill tanks and the flyers can intercept flyers / kill tanks / maul infantry as required.

Thanks.

I don't know if I'm going to be taking Raiders as I'm going with Venom Spam with Haywyches as troops and Blasterborn as Elites.

I think I've got AI covered with the mass Splinter Cannon fire I'll have, but ranged AT, I'm not so sure.

Puscifer wrote:Thanks.

I don't know if I'm going to be taking Raiders as I'm going with Venom Spam with Haywyches as troops and Blasterborn as Elites.

I think I've got AI covered with the mass Splinter Cannon fire I'll have, but ranged AT, I'm not so sure.

If you are going venom spam with the wyches and haywire, I would really take 2 razorwings loaded with dak lances, and then take a ravager with dissies. Personnaly I take two ravagers (one dark lance, and one dissies) and then I sometimes bring a razorwing (but I'm trying different things).

I personnaly am having a difficult time using flyers. It's not that they don't do anything, it is just for the points, could I take something else that can do the same thing and be coesive with my army build? Can I get more use out of something else in our codex without spamming what I am already bringing?

If you're looking for ranged anti-tank in our fliers, then you are going to be sorely disappointed.

The Voidraven isn't bad for AT, but it's not going to be on the board the first turn, it has limited shooting potential, and it's more expensive than a Ravager. It's not a bad unit, I love Voidravens! They're fething awesome. But If I'm taking one, I'm taking it with two dark lance Ravagers for my other two heavy supports. I tried a list with two Voidravens as my heavy support, but I lacked first turn anti-armor, which gutted my alpha-strike. I wasn't exactly going to open up transports with splinter cannon fire.

Don't take Razorwings as anti-tank though. They are not good in this role. It dilutes their exceptional anti-infantry firepower. Dark Lances do not want to shoot at Monoscythe missile targets, and Monoscythe missiles do not want to shoot at Dark Lance targets. Dark Lance razorwings were the way to go in 5th because you could blow your entire missile load in a single shooting phase, and if you survived 'till the next turn you could function as a less efficient Ravager. Now? You can only fire two missiles per turn, and your movement is heavily restricted. So you've got two shooting phases minimum where your dark lances are going to waste (or your missiles are) out of 2-5 turns tops that you'll get to shooting. On average, you'd only get 2 turns firing at vehicles with 2 dark lances. Which, let's face it, isn't exactly a great threat to armor.

Now if you're going to bring blasterborn, you could have them function as your first turn AT and then bring in Voidravens in subsequent turns to mop up what armor is left. You've already got anti-infantry covered by all dem splinter cannons, so you really don't need the missiles. At the same time though, you've really got turn 2+ anti-armor covered by wych squads with haywire, so do you really need the voidraven? Couldn't you be better off with more Ravagers giving you more first turn anti-armor shots, as well as more points to play with? I know that's probably not the answer you wanna hear, but Ravagers are still king of our Heavy Support options. Although a flier or two won't be remiss, especially if you use it for dogfighting.

I'm regretting buying my razorwing personally, that whole zooming restriction has just made me hate our supersonic flyers to be honest. Yeah, great, they can survive until the end unlike 5th ed, but what's the point if they're gonna b firing at nothing? Are they surviving because they need a 6 to be hit, or simply because our opponents have just decided to ignore it?

Personally, not too bothered by flyers unless they're necrons, so, I'd rather just fill my HS slots with all the ravagers in the universe and kill ground units quicker and better.

So off the current subject on the tread, but I played a game today and again beast masters were awesome as always, but I think I am going back to my normal setup of 5 beast masters, 10 khymera, and 6 razorwings. The clawed fiend personally doesn't fit my play style, but I love the fact that the beast masters themselves are characters.

Something that I never really thought of before for an HQ choice is the Duke. Call me slow to the block but for 150 points this guy is awesome. Now normally my hq of choice is Lelith (lots of attacks, high WS and In, and ignores armor). But let's be honest I normally fight space marines in one form or another, or something that is toughness 4 or more (overlord, tyranid in some shape or other, biker captain). So she is wounding on a 5 or greater which usually translates to 1 or 2 dead. But the Duke wounds on a 2+ (he has great options for combat drugs which can increase that number) and he IGNORES ARMOR on roll of a 5 or a 6. Against tough 4 models so does Lelith! So instead of just wounding 1 or 2 or wait maybe 3 times, I am more likely wounding 3 or 4 and possible 1 or 2 of those ignore armor, and the others my opponent has to roll for which could bring the total up higher. He also has a blast pistol, and a shadowfield (so better save), and he pimps my ride for a squad of trueborn or warriors, making them wound on 3+ instead of 4+ for their splinter shots.

Duke sliscus you are now my regular hq choice. I already had a model made for him, just need to give it a cape and he will be ready to be painted and get his swag on.

I'm using the Duke. He's just too good for 150 points. All of those goodies and only one downfall... 2 wounds.

CrimsonKing wrote:
But the Duke wounds on a 2+ (he has great options for combat drugs which can increase that number) and he IGNORES ARMOR on roll of a 5 or a 6. Against tough 4 models so does Lelith! So instead of just wounding 1 or 2 or wait maybe 3 times, I am more likely wounding 3 or 4 and possible 1 or 2 of those ignore armor, and the others my opponent has to roll for which could bring the total up higher. He also has a blast pistol, and a shadowfield (so better save), and he pimps my ride for a squad of trueborn or warriors, making them wound on 3+ instead of 4+ for their splinter shots..

I am personally on the fence with the duke. Yeah he has all that nice CC stuff, but he needs to be deployed with Warriors or Trueborn who will(if played right) will NEVER get into CC. The silver lining here, is something I'm unsure about, does the Duke have to STAY with the squad to confer the 3+ poison, or just be deployed with them? If he doesn't have to stay with them, then I guess first turn you could just scoot him over to a wych squad, in which case yes...the Duke definitely found a place in my list.

I've just posted my first DE list since 3rd ed:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/468974.page

I'd be happy if you Dakkaites could give me some feedback please?

Unless you're not running any Warriors or Trueborn, then he can be run where you like.

But ultimately in my experience the best way to run Sliscus is with a squad of 20 Warriors with 2 Splinter Cannons. And this set up has gotten even better with 6th.

For 200pts you now get at full strength:
At Overwatch: 48 Poison (3+) Shots (Which should work out at 8 hits, 5-6 wounds.)
At 12" (Stationary): 48 Poison (3+) Shots (24 hits and 16 wounds.)
At 18" (Moved 6"): 44 Poison (3+) Shots (22 hits and 14-15 wounds.)
At 24" (Stationary): 30 Poison (3+) Shots (15 hits and 10 wounds.)
At 30" (Moved 6"): 28 Poison (3+) Shots (14 hits and 9-10 wounds.)

I'm gravitating towards the Trueborn accompanyment for Sliscus which is pretty common for him, Splinter Cannons and Shardcarbines all round, slapping some Haywire Grenades on the unit too so it can handle all comers.

The only problem is It ends up so expensive, and then I feel obligated to throw another 60+ points in to get them a guaranteed pain token and make them a bit tougher because they are so expensive, and suddenly a huge chunk of my army is this not particularly durable "deathstar" that isn't even scoring.

Which is why I've found the Warrior Blob most effective: Costs less, puts out more overall firepower, is just as durable but with more bodies and is scoring.