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HQ- Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of change, Gift of Chaos

HQ- Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of change, Wind of Chaos

__________
Troop- 9 Thousand Sons, Gift of Chaos, Bolt of Change
- Rhino, Havoc Launcher

Troop- 9 Thousand Sons, Gift of Chaos, Bolt of Change
- Rhino, Havoc Launcher

Troop- 9 Lesser Daemons-

Troop- 9 Lesser Daemons
__________

Defiler 150 (Two Close Combat Arms)

1 Obliterator- 75

I am not sure about having a single obliterator... I was thinking about having him deepstrike on a icon near someones landraider and melta it. Not a lot of people deepstrike obliterators, why?

Comments and Criticism wanted

Removed individual point costs. Please only list the total point cost of each unit, not the costs of each option. Thank you. - Lorek

It's considered proper forum etiquette to list totals only on your army choices. IE,

HQ - Daemon Prince - 205
Wings, MoT, Bolt of Change, Wind of Chaos


Why 9 TS Troops per unit? I assume it's because they come 9 in a box including the Sorc.
Your math on the TS Squads seems off: 8x23 point troops = 184 + 1x60 Aspiring Sorc = 244
Unlike the DP, who can take 2 Psychic Powers with MoT, the Aspiring Sorc may only choose one.
Naked Rhinos are basically considered best. DPs are excellent can openers, and should be able to take care of any armor you encounter.
Oblits can deepstrike in a squad of 1-3, and seem a better way to spend points than the second squad of Lesser Daemons. 4 Troop choices at 1500 seems overkill imho.

Sample list:
HQ:
DP - 195
Wings, MoT, Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos

DP - 195
Wings, MoT, Bolt of Change, Wind of Chaos

Troops:
9 x Thousand Sons - 309
Sorc, Gift of Chaos, Rhino

9 x Thousand Sons - 309
Sorc, Gift of Chaos, Rhino

9 x Lesser Daemon - 117

Heavy Support:
Defiler - 150

3 x Obliterators - 225

= 1500 points.

Just my 2ç here - take it as you will

HQ- Daemon Prince 110, Wings 20, Mark of Tzeentch 20, Bolt of change 25, Gift of Chaos 30

HQ- Daemon Prince 110, Wings 20, Mark of Tzeentch 20, Bolt of change 25, Wind of Chaos 30

You might want to chop out all the individual point costs, that is usually a bad thing. As for their loadout, don't go with BoC and WoC, they don't mix well.
Typically if you want an expensive DP, the best one is Warptime/WoC so you can reroll those wounds. Its pretty expensive though. I prefer the cheaper WT/Doombolt option. Against Marines its probably 2+ dead and it saves 20 points.

Troop- 9 Thousand Sons 207, Gift of Chaos 30, Bolt of Change 25
- Rhino 35, Havoc Launcher 15

Troop- 9 Thousand Sons 207, Gift of Chaos 30, Bolt of Change 25
- Rhino 35, Havoc Launcher 15

You don't get 2 powers with an A. Sorcerer but you can use some powers twice. It really only works with 2x Gift of Chaos or Warptime/Force Weapons. I prefer WT personally. The Havoc Launcher is a little expensive and you don't have the points for a luxury item.

Troop- 9 Lesser Daemons- 117

Troop- 9 Lesser Daemons 117

You'll want some Icons on the Thousand Sons to summon them, otherwise it won't happen.

Defiler 150 (Two Close Combat Arms)

1 Obliterator- 75

I'm not sure about the single Oblit. I normally like Defilers but the Oblits might give you better anti-tank which you'll need.

Those Daemon Princes are about 25 points more expensive than they need to be. That Bolt of Chance is a terrible power, you need to drop it. The Thousand Sons can't take two powers per squad, and Bolt of Change is still a rubbish power. You payed out the nose for AP3 bolters, but you waste the entire squad's fire if you try (there isn't a terribly large chance) to bust a tank with Bolt of Chance. The lone Obliterator is liable to throw away KPs, but thankfully with all the points you save you can pick up another one. I'd give the Daemon Princes both Warptime so they can have a better shot at cracking tanks; that is where they'll primarily end up. You could save some points and give the Thousand Sons Doombolt, which would open the Princes up to getting a second power (maaaybe Bolt of Change, so long as it is Warptimed).

DP's: Drop Bolt on Each and pick up Warptime for both. Gift is cool but 6" range is terrible and its hard to pull off. I personally really like Wind of Chaos as its good for pretty much everything in 40k, especially when you get to reroll those failed 4+ wounds/glances.

Troops: You didn't include the price for your Sorcerer, which makes the unit very expensive. Like said above, Bolt Change is a waste but Warptime makes it an extremely capable defensive unit. Think about it, rerolling Force Weapon attacks?!?

1x Oblit: Uh, drop this and pour it into more Lesser Daemons or bells and whistles for your rhinos

I don't deepstrike anything b/c I tend to have VERY bad luck with deepstrike, even if I summon with an Icon. Oblits coming in on the DS is cool and all but only really nasty when there are 3 of them and they're there when you need them most. Its an expensive unit that can get tied up even with a simple IG squad or pounded into the dirt with a dedicated assault squad. All I'm saying is be sure you have a plan with them when you DS, don't just toss them across the field hoping they'll do something worthwhile.

I'm not one for Dust Buckets but,

Doom bolt to keep things cheap.
Wind for generalist squads.
Warptime for the spice.

Troops look ok otherwise.
HQ's couls use some powers changing.

Hvy support:
2 Defilers or two squads of 2 oblits... gotta scrounge for points from dropped powers.

Bolt of Change isn't to be completely condemned, but it's definitely overcosted and shouldn't feature on more than one model, and definitely not on your aspiring sorcerers.

Keep your squad strengths at 9, as it is the favored number of Tzeentch and will please him in battle (plus buying another box to round them out is economically unsound).

Naked rhinos. Trust me. Rhinos die, and if you glue expensive things to them you're just going to get attached.

I wouldn't drop the Defiler for Oblits, rather try to work out one of each for tactical flexibility. Defilers are excellent multi-purpose armor and they look damn cool.

Put gift of chaos on everything

DP's with Warptime + doombolt are always fun!

dont rely on doombolt to bust tanks. imo take only the power/ability/upgrade whatever that is *best* for the mission, and then spam *that*

doom bolt aint it.

...wut?

Ok...

@Zid:
Warptime + Doombolt...who cares.
Warptime + Wind of Chaos: NOW THERE'S something competitive.

@GloryToThe16th:
I don't know what you mean by saying "doombolt to bust tanks".
Maybe you are thinking Zid got it wrong, maybe he did, maybe not.
But from the looks of it, you are mixing up Doombolt with Bolt of Change, very different.

I used to run Thousand Sons a lot with the old codex and I would win Big Tournaments. I would think of something like this:

HQ: Chaos Sorcerer (1#, 190 pts)
1 Chaos Sorcerer @ 190 pts ((C:CSM, pp. 31 & 93); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bike; Personal Icon; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt Pistol x1; Force Weapon x1; Bolt of Change)

Troops: Thousand Sons (10#, 309 pts)
8 Thousand Sons @ 309 pts ((C:CSM, pp. 37 & 98); Inferno Bolts; Power Armour; Personal Icon; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolter x8; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful; Rhino)
1 Aspiring Sorcerer ((C:CSM, pp. 37 & 98); Power Armour; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon; Fearless; Bolt of Change; Inferno Bolts)
1 Rhino ((C:CSM, pp. 42 & 96); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

Troops: Thousand Sons (10#, 309 pts)
8 Thousand Sons @ 309 pts ((C:CSM, pp. 37 & 98); Inferno Bolts; Power Armour; Personal Icon; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolter x8; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful; Rhino)
1 Aspiring Sorcerer ((C:CSM, pp. 37 & 98); Power Armour; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon; Fearless; Bolt of Change; Inferno Bolts)
1 Rhino ((C:CSM, pp. 42 & 96); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

: Summoned Lesser Daemon (9#, 117 pts)
9 Summoned Lesser Daemon @ 117 pts ((C:CSM, pp. 62 & 102); Close Combat Weapon; Fearless)

Fast Attack: Bikers (5#, 265 pts)
4 Bikers @ 265 pts ((C:CSM, pg. 27 & 99); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bike; Power Armour; Icon of Tzeentch; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt Pistol x4; Close Combat Weapon x2; Twin Linked Bolter; Meltagun x2)
1 Biker Champion ((C:CSM, pg. 27 & 99); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bike; Power Armour; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt Pistol; Power Fist)

Heavy Support: Defiler (1#, 150 pts)
1 Defiler @ 150 pts ((C:CSM, pp. 41 & 101); Fleet; Battle Cannon; Dreadnought CCW x2; Reaper Autocannon; Twin Linked Heavy Flamer; Daemonic Possession; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers)

Heavy Support: Defiler (1#, 150 pts)
1 Defiler @ 150 pts ((C:CSM, pp. 41 & 101); Fleet; Battle Cannon; Dreadnought CCW x2; Reaper Autocannon; Twin Linked Heavy Flamer; Daemonic Possession; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers)



Total Roster Cost: 1490

@@andyh53:

First: dear god, just write it out, so much useless information and clutter.

Sorc: so, what of Bolt of Change on the bike, it seems like a waste when he’s gonna have 2 melta gun in the bike squad he’s with, and he can diversify the squad and add Wind to the mix…better yet WarpWind.

Dust Bucket squads: Bolt of Change again?
Lesser daemons are ok

Bikers are very…average, maybe a bit under-average. The points cost:model count is just ridiculous…esp. in a points intensive army as a full Cult troop base.
Icon of Tzeentch, though good for theme is a bit of a waste…you are paying so much for a meh inv save.

Defilers are ok.

I think the list has issues with horde control.
Anti-tank in the form of just 2 meltas and a sprinkle of BoC is alarming in a bad way. BoC is not very points efficient, in addition the opportunity cost is appalling. I'd think AC/LC preds are what you need for transport cracking, though that means replacing Defilers.

Unlike the DP, who can take 2 Psychic Powers with MoT, the Aspiring Sorc may only choose one.

I agree that putting two powers on the Aspiring is a bad idea, but is it illegal? Are they not psykers with the Mark of Tzeentch? From what I remember reading from the top of page 88, those were the only requirements.

What 2 powers did I give them??

@andyh53:
D'Ork was not talking to you, he was talking about Mizzri's post in this thread, hence his quote.

_________

@D'Ork:
I think it's in the purchasing menu for the Aspiring Champion, it limits him to only purchasing one, that overrides the MoT rules, but sadly, I don't have my codex on hand at work

Got it I thought he was talking about inferno bolts. That what I get for just glancing and not reading.

I'm without the Codex as well, but I think that the entry says "The Aspiring Sorcerer may choose one power from this list..."

The thing is that it says the same thing for DPs and full Sorcerers. So if the listing overrides the MoT rule, then nobody gets two powers.

Lol, More "I think":
There there is a line within the DP and Sorc Lord entries that say "unless they have a Familiar or Mark of Tzeentch".

Huh. I guess this will just have to bug the hell out of me until I get home.

oh sorry bolt of change. i mix them up because i dont use either of them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
magnus you should put real honest to god tzeentch demons in there. cult thousand sons are balogna anyway so IMO anyone whose going to run them deserves some latitude. just explain to them you're using both codices... depending on your group you might get away with it. the books were split for marketing, not fluff reasons anyway.

OK. Again, the codex is poorly written. Below I quote most of the paragraph, because I have to in order to try to figure this all out. Page 88 says:

A psyker may only attempt to use one psychic power per turn. The only exception is a model with the Mark of Tzeentch, which can attempt to use up to two psychic powers per turn...

Let's set aside the fact that the second sentence makes it sound as if any MoT Lord, each Thousand Sons marine, and any CSM in any squad bearing an Icon of Tzeentch gets psychic powers. I think we can all agree that this sentence should refer to psykers, not models.

The aspiring sorcerer entry says that the Asp. Sorc. must take one of the powers listed below. Not "may" or "up to" or anything like that. So all his listing is missing is this sentence from the (full) Sorcerer and the DP listing: "Models with the Mark of Tzeentch may take one additional power." But - again - this refers to "models," not "sorcerers" or "Daemon Princes." Even if we assume that it should say "psykers," that would still include the Aspiring Sorcerer.

=][= Personal Attacks are not allowed on Dakka. Play Nice or Feel the wrath! >.> -grey_death official warning =][= Mark of Tzeentch does not grant the user to the ability take two psychic powers, it only allows you to cast two. Taking two powers is specific to the Sorcerer and Daemon Prince's entry. Unless explicitly stated, you can't do it; it's called permissive rules writing. So, while it doesn't say you can't take multiple powers, it is more important that it doesn't say you can. Sorcerers and Daemon Princes, on the other hand, have something specifically saying they can take an additional power. By your logic, an Aspiring Sorcerer can take all the powers at once which is clearly not the case.

DarkHound wrote:You're a fool. Mark of Tzeentch does not grant the user to the ability take two psychic powers, it only allows you to cast two. Taking two powers is specific to the Sorcerer and Daemon Prince's entry. Unless explicitly stated, you can't do it; it's called permissive rules writing. So, while it doesn't say you can't take multiple powers, it is more important that it doesn't say you can. Sorcerers and Daemon Princes, on the other hand, have something specifically saying they can take an additional power. By your logic, an Aspiring Sorcerer can take all the powers at once which is clearly not the case.

You can insult me if you want, I guess. *golfclap*

Back to the topic: There's no way to read it that an Asp. Sorc gets all the powers at once. Psykers can use one power. Models with the MoT can use one more. 1+1 = 2. So clearly the Asp Sorc is limited to two, since he can't take a familiar. Don't call someone a fool and then drop the ball on easy math.

D'ork:

No, you're wrong. Using two powers and having two powers are, if you'll pardon the turn of phrase, two different things.

The Aspiring Sorcerer's Mark of Tzeentch allows the Aspiring Sorcerer to use two psychic powers during one turn. Fortunately an Aspiring Sorcerer always has two psychic powers: his Force Weapon and the one that his Character entry requires him to take.

According to the Chaos Space Marine FAQ two powers can be cast multiple times: Warptime and Gift of Chaos, with the caveat that casting Warptime successfully more than once per player turn is pointless.

Now, given that the Aspiring Sorcerer can only cast Gift of Chaos twice, what's the point of the Mark of Tzeentch? Well, it means that he can use the Instant Death psychic power granted by his Force Weapon on the same turn that he employs the single optional psychic power (Warptime, Gift of Chaos, Doombolt, Wind of Chaos, or Bolt of Change).

I personally prefer Warptime and Instant Death, allowing the Aspiring Sorcerer to capitalize on his three attacks, four if he's charging.

d'ork mark of tzeentch lets you use two powers. aspiring sorcerers can only take 1 though. it says so in their unit entry. one of the things that nice about gift of chaos is you always get to use it twice if its in range. all the others either cant or shouldnt be used twice.

Sanctjud wrote:...wut?

Ok...

@Zid:
Warptime + Doombolt...who cares.
Warptime + Wind of Chaos: NOW THERE'S something competitive.

@GloryToThe16th:
I don't know what you mean by saying "doombolt to bust tanks".
Maybe you are thinking Zid got it wrong, maybe he did, maybe not.
But from the looks of it, you are mixing up Doombolt with Bolt of Change, very different.

I know whats what, I just like doombolt 3 ap shots that hit on 2+ is always fun! WOC is good, but expensive, so I always steer clear of it. Thats just my 2 cents, everyone plays diff

OK well, I concede. I bet it's an oversight on GW's part, but you play with the codex you have...